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      12-06-2019, 07:34 PM   #23
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Only 1 car, dct
2nd car, 6mt
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      12-06-2019, 08:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hithere View Post
Hi,

Thanks for letting me join this forum.

I am close to purchasing a MY2020 M2 Competition in Hockenheim Silver. Perforated Dakota leather (red stitching) with heated seats, black 788M (S029U) wheels, carbon fibre interior trim. No sunroof (my head touches the roof lining with sunroof). No privacy glasses (too hard to tint the front windows to match). AppleCarPlay for an unlimited period (I just found out on this forum that BMW made it free).

M2 is pretty rare (unlike Ford Mustangs) in Australia. I have been able to sit in one, but I have not driven one. My reason for posting here seeking your thoughts.

Historically, I have had a manual transmission in all but one of my cars. So why not just buy another manual? I've heard that 6th gear in 6MT is lower than the 7th in DCT. Something like 2,600rpm @ 100kph (6MT) vs 2,100rpm (DCT). I guess that might mean that the cabin will be noisier on the freeway and consume a bit more fuel? Is that right? Noisier and thirstier at highway speed?

I also like to blip the throttle on downshifting in manual transmission myself, but M2 does it for me, and I can only disable that feature if I switch off the traction control? Is it 'partial' or 'fully' disengaged traction control? I don't think I will ever want to switch it off completely. That S55 (even in detuned form from M3 / M4) seems like its got a lot of power.

Maybe some folks with F87 DCT M2 might answer these questions for me. Does it downshift/upshift when you command it, OR sometimes it shifts down/up when it feels like it?

I am aware that DCT outperforms 6MT to 100kph by 0.2 seconds. That is not very important to me. However, does the DCT behave itself at lower speeds (e.g. around town)? Or say when performing a 3-point u-turn? Goes it go into gear faster than traditional automatic (going from 1st to reverse)? When you start moving forward slowly from stationary, is it smooth?

Lastly, is DCT reliable if serviced regularly? I wouldn't want a huge bill a month after the warranty runs out OR hugely costly to service after the first 5 years (included servicing).

One good thing about buying M2C in Australia is that DCT and 6MT are identically priced. 6MT is a No Cost Option (NCO) to delete.

I should share my driving style. I'm an ordinary guy next door no track racing or drag racing. I only drive about 6,000kms - 7,000kms per year. I have a bit of fun on a country road when no one is around, but that is about it.

Thanks in advance. I appreciate any suggestions.
6MT and you will thank me for it while doing your heel and toe and double clutching on the Old Pacific highway or on the Great Ocean road
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      12-06-2019, 10:12 PM   #25
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I would get the manual. There will be fewer and fewer manual options to come in the future. Sure, the new M3/4 will have a manual, but it's large.

I think this M2C is designed as a Manila, if you wanted an automatic, I would just go for the regular M235i
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      12-07-2019, 06:05 AM   #26
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      12-07-2019, 11:13 AM   #27
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Quite honestly, I'm surprised. I would have thought that the responses to this question on this forum would be overwhelmingly 6MT. But there is a fair number amount of DCT love too.
Count me in the latter. Love my DCT. Makes a hell of a lot more sense in traffic, and I have never found fault with it when driving hard. I don't track, more of a canyon carver. And this is just my opinion, but I think the people saying a DCT is not as fun and engaging as the 6MT are just towing the "Never two pedal" line. I have a hell of a lot of fun on the twisties. If I feel the need to be more engaged, I go manual mode. But honestly, Sport+ in auto just allows me to go faster through the turns, which is the point isn't it?
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      12-07-2019, 05:24 PM   #28
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There are so many factors involved with deciding between the 2.

How long will I keep this car?
What will be its primary use? Weekend warrior/track, daily?
Traffic issues?
How far am I planning on modding it? And for what use?
How much power can the DCT handle and how long will it last?
What would a rebuild cost/replace one?
How many track/autocross days will I do per year?
How important is it grab a manual transmission German car before the option is gone?
How will I drive the DCT? In auto mode, or manual mode?



I had a DCT in my EVO X. The car was tracked extensively and I ran 28 lbs of boost thru the motor. I had trouble with the Getrag DCT constantly and it cost me a ton to make it right. 3 rebuilds and none of them completely fixed the unit.
I haven't heard of any problems with the unit in the M2, but for me its far less expensive and easier to swap out a clutch and throwout bearing vs a problem DCT out of warranty. There are not that many shops that can troubleshoot and repair/rebuild a DCT professionally. They are much more complex than a traditional Auto unit.

I drove my DCT 100% in manual mode while I had it.

I can't stand a transmission doing the work for me, but that's me...


I could dive deeper but...

For me its was a 100% 6 spd decision.

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      12-07-2019, 07:01 PM   #29
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If you don't have to sit in traffic or aren't going to the track then get the manual IMO (my car is DCT and those are the two circumstances where it shines)
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      12-07-2019, 10:08 PM   #30
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if you don't want to ride on track and just a fun weekend car go for manual. if you commute or you want to get the best times on the track go for dct. I drove the manual OG M2 for a while and bought the DCT m2c. no regrets so far. the car feels like a go kart and punishes for the slightest careless pedaling
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      12-07-2019, 11:41 PM   #31
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If you don't plan on tracking and you can actually drive a manual well, there is no reason to buy a car like this with an automatic. It won't be long before you don't have a choice at all. Enjoy.
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      12-08-2019, 01:24 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR013 View Post
But honestly, Sport+ in auto just allows me to go faster through the turns, which is the point isn't it?
Is it though?

(sorry, incoming pet peeve rant that's only really tangentially related to your post.)

The fastest way for my car to tackle a twisty road would be for me to exit the vehicle, and let someone who is a better driver drive my car on that road at speeds I could never match. Hell, if they were good enough, i wouldn't even have to get out of the car, maybe I could just sit in the back seat for weight distribution.

Speed on its own isn't inherently fun. That's why some of the most boring moments of my life have come when my body was physically traveling at around 600 mph.

THAT SAID, the DCT is still a perfectly reasonable and dare I say, BETTER choice for many people out there. Plenty of people legitimately enjoy the car better that way and that's 100 percent fine. For many people, a manual is a distraction and not a source of joy (yeah i just got marie kondo up in here.) That's cool, different strokes for different folks.

But 60K is a lot of money, people should be buying what makes them happy, not what has better numbers on a piece of paper. Because the whole point isn't speed, the whole point is smiles.
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      12-08-2019, 01:51 AM   #33
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I got DCT. All of my previous 9 cars bar were manual bar one (I don't really like autos).

As long as you realise this is nothing like an automatic and change the gears yourself other than when stuck in traffic then it is just bloody fantastic. I feel that it suits the car a lot better than the weird hybrid manual thing that BMW sells these days.

There is a short learning curve with it, but once you get used to it it's sensational. It's also the last ever DCT BMW will have, so it's a good opportunity to get something that marks the end of an era.
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      12-08-2019, 02:11 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR013 View Post
But honestly, Sport+ in auto just allows me to go faster through the turns, which is the point isn't it?
Is it though?

(sorry, incoming pet peeve rant that's only really tangentially related to your post.)

The fastest way for my car to tackle a twisty road would be for me to exit the vehicle, and let someone who is a better driver drive my car on that road at speeds I could never match. Hell, if they were good enough, i wouldn't even have to get out of the car, maybe I could just sit in the back seat for weight distribution.

Speed on its own isn't inherently fun. That's why some of the most boring moments of my life have come when my body was physically traveling at around 600 mph.

THAT SAID, the DCT is still a perfectly reasonable and dare I say, BETTER choice for many people out there. Plenty of people legitimately enjoy the car better that way and that's 100 percent fine. For many people, a manual is a distraction and not a source of joy (yeah i just got marie kondo up in here.) That's cool, different strokes for different folks.

But 60K is a lot of money, people should be buying what makes them happy, not what has better numbers on a piece of paper. Because the whole point isn't speed, the whole point is smiles.
Absolutely.

It takes more skill and concentration to drive a manual (well) vs an auto. I enjoy driving and the manual makes it that much more challenging and rewarding if I do it well.

That's what sports cars are for; having fun! I have another car that's automatic for running errands and road trips with the family.

But hey, different strokes for different folks. You may have other priorities or needs when it comes to driving. Nothing wrong with that. Get what suits you.
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      12-08-2019, 02:19 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
I got DCT. All of my previous 9 cars bar were manual bar one (I don't really like autos).

As long as you realise this is nothing like an automatic and change the gears yourself other than when stuck in traffic then it is just bloody fantastic. I feel that it suits the car a lot better than the weird hybrid manual thing that BMW sells these days.

There is a short learning curve with it, but once you get used to it it's sensational. It's also the last ever DCT BMW will have, so it's a good opportunity to get something that marks the end of an era.
It's an automatic. Years from now when everything is an EV, people will long for the learning curve that clutch pedals give to sports cars. Even if manual cars today are hardly manual, I'd rather own the end of the manual era than the end of the dual clutch automatic era.

I couldn't go without at least one manual in my life. Unless I were being paid handsomely for setting lap times, there is no way on earth I'd spec a 'drivers car' with 2 pedals.

I get big cars losing manuals (although my B7 would be fu**ing awesome with a stick)...but don't do it man; don't buy an automatic M2 lol.
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      12-08-2019, 05:08 AM   #36
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Firstly, thank you very much to everyone who replied. Even thou I may not reply to your comment specifically, all your inputs were appreciated and helped me immensely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piets94 View Post
Hithere, I guess I can comment here as the M2c is my first DCT experience for about the last 6 months. Have been MT always before then. Was an easy decision for me as I kept my manual 1M for a different experience.
Interesting that several of you mentioned another car with MT. Unfortunately, this will be our one and only car. However, we don't use to commute. We will be lucky to do 5,000ml per year. I'm a motorcyclist so I ride more than that a year. So, bumper-to-bumper traffic for us is rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piets94 View Post
The M2c is my daily. DCT is a great trans, but the auto mode gives me the f shits. I almost exclusively drive it in manual mode 2 and love it for it...
Again, several people here commented that DCT in auto is rubbish. So many of you drive DCT like a clutch-less manual... interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piets94 View Post
Took me a while to get used to the slowness of the gearbox when going from fwd to reverse and back again...
That will drive me nuts. I often have to drive forward and reverse into our garage on a busy road. I want the 1st-to-reverse shift to be quick and decisive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piets94 View Post
Sport + also activates the additional engine cooling for track work and so it's noticeably noisier and rough running for daily duties.
Wow! I didn't know there is a feature like that. So, I guess most folks would drive around town in ECO or Sports? ...but not Sports+, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piets94 View Post
I mix between shifting with the paddles and the lever itself, both are fairly intuitive and comfortable to use.
If I got DCT, I would probably do that... but I might give preference to the stick over paddles. When I'm going around corners, not knowing where the paddles are would annoy me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piets94 View Post
I haven't tracked it yet, but auto mode might make more sense on a track or for drags if that's your sort of thing. I'm glad I chose the DCT, BUT if I didn't have the MT to fall back on in the 1M I would possibly regret it.
I don't plan to track nor drag race. So, I share your thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piets94 View Post
It's a rough decision. You really need extended drive time with each trans to decide.
I guess that is my problem. I have only been able to sit in one. I have not driven one yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthFader View Post
Should something go wrong out of warranty, the DCT will be more expensive to fix.
That is my concern also. Although, someone else here said that MT has more mechanical issues, it is considerably simpler and proven technology. So it would be cheaper to repair, if out of warranty. Due to the low mileage we do and the cost of fun cars, we will keep this car way beyond 5 years. So, the potential repair bill is something I cannot ignore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthFader View Post
I have manual in my M2 and DCT in my 135i which is my daily driver. For me the DCT is boring unless your going full throttle or on track. And yes I drive it exclusively in manual mode but it's not the same engagement as MT.
Interesting! It makes sense that DCT would be less involving to drive, and therefore, for some people, less fun. I believe I would share your thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wood600rr View Post
I have no regrets choosing the DCT for my situation, and if I really want a manual car I can get an S2000 or Cayman to satisfy that craving.
Hmmm... only if I could have several cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
I don't think it's the greatest manual to ever come on a car, though it's also far from the worst.
Interesting comment. I can't say I have experienced a terrible MT car in the past. Sure, some had longer throws and others didn't feel particularly positive when shifting but I guess I adapted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
The shift quality will be familiar if you've driven many BMW manuals, reasonably accurate, longish throws and a very 'cushy' feeling, without much harshness. Despite the cushiness, there is still some feedback, but overall it feels pretty refined for what i'm used to in a sports car. Not much effort is needed to slot between gears.
Thank you Moflow, your detailed description has given me an idea of what to expect now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
There is also a hill hold feature and an anti-stall feature. You don't need to give it any gas when getting away from a stop, just slowly let out the clutch and the car will do it for you.
Really?? I had no idea such features were available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
the car will still let you rev match even with the auto rev match on. I like to double clutch my downshifts with a blip in neutral and the car will absolutely, faithfully respond to my throttle blip. However, if i don't give it enough of a blip, the engine will blip a little extra for a perfect rev match when i actually slot it into gear. If I do get it perfect on the other hand, I can't tell the car is doing anything to help me (and indeed it may not be.)
Nice! Good to know this as I also blip in neutral before shifting down a cog. It sounds like I might not need to disable the auto blip feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
Cruising on the highway in 6th gear hasn't been a problem for me, last week I drove from seattle to portland and then back to seattle, which is at least 500 miles. The car isn't going to get great mileage no matter what, but I didn't feel like there was excessive vibration or noise from the engine while cruising at 70-80 mph.
Again, great info. In Australia, the freeway speed limit is 110kph (68mph). Except in one state in the middle of the desert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Oh, and: Its got a 50 litre tank and a 23mpg thirst. More road noise at 100kmh is so not the problem...
I see... I thought it would be relatively frugal just sitting on the highway at 70mph (excluding the city driving portion).

Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
At 80 mph in 7th gear the DCT doesn't annoy me with drone. If I put it in 6th it does, so maybe I would be a bit annoyed with the cruising speed noises of the MT, not sure.
Do you recall what rpm your engine was sitting on in 6th gear DCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
This is the last DCT BMW ever, only ZF torque convert auto and MT for next gen.
I didn't know that. Thanks for heads up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
It's actually quite noticeable, but I think it only happens in eco mode. You don't really drop out of boost at all when shifting gears in Sport/Sport+ even if you're shifting kind of slowly.

I actually kind of like driving in eco mode sometimes. The car feels much more "old school turbocharged" with a significant lag between when you put your foot down and when the boost starts to spool. It will still eventually scoot pretty good if you have your foot all the way down though.
Doesn't sound like the gears are well matched to the engine... having said that, if in Sports mode, it doesn't do it (turbo lag), it's just the relaxed tune so I guess that's fine.

I don't plan to fit an aftermarket tune so I want the factory tune to behave itself and I expect it to be well calibrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
6MT and you will thank me for it while doing your heel and toe and double clutching on the Old Pacific highway or on the Great Ocean road


Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES View Post
How long will I keep this car?
What will be its primary use? Weekend warrior/track, daily?
Traffic issues?
How far am I planning on modding it? And for what use?
How much power can the DCT handle and how long will it last?
What would a rebuild cost/replace one?
How many track/autocross days will I do per year?
How important is it grab a manual transmission German car before the option is gone?
How will I drive the DCT? In auto mode, or manual mode?
Here are my answers:
I plan to keep it for 6 to 10 years.
When we need a car. We don't drive very often. Never track or drag race.
Drive it stock... maybe diff-back exhaust (for exhaust sound)
No idea what DCT can handle.
Cost to maintain after the warranty period is a factor for me.
No track days.
Buying something (DCT or MT) before it disappears is not a factor for me. I'm not a museum collecting historical items.
No idea how I would drive a DCT. Never driven one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
I feel that it suits the car a lot better than the weird hybrid manual thing that BMW sells these days.
Can you please elaborate on what you said about 'hybrid manual'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenB7 View Post
It's an automatic. Years from now when everything is an EV, people will long for the learning curve that clutch pedals give to sports cars. Even if manual cars today are hardly manual, I'd rather own the end of the manual era than the end of the dual clutch automatic era.
One of the reasons why I am looking at the M2C is because this will most likely be my last internal combustion engine. No doubt EV will be everywhere in the next 10 years.
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      12-08-2019, 06:12 AM   #37
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UPDATE

Before I started reading your posts, I was 70% leaning towards DCT. Why? In Australia, DCT and MT are priced identically. I have heard many saying, DCT doesn't get much better than this. And with a taller top gear ratio for freeway driving, I was interested in DCT and certainly wanted to test drive one.

But now, I am less interested in DCT. The consensus here is that, (a) DCT in auto mode is rubbish, at the very least, annoys people sometimes. (b) Shifting from 1st-reverse-1st is slow. (c) driven in manual mode, DCT is quick. (d) If repairs are needed, they will be more costly and specialised.

Meanwhile, MT is (a) primarily proven technology. (b) cheaper to maintain and to repair out of warranty. (c) Slower to shift gears. (d) the top gear in MT is 500rpm lower than DCT in top gear (possibly noisier). (e) consumes more petrol overall when compared to DCT.

According to the dealer, DCT outsells MT in Australia by a good margin. I think he said 70% DCT.

Now I am thinking of requesting a test drive of 6MT M2C... if it is available. This also means that I am now leaning towards getting a MT.

Thanks again for all your thoughts.
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      12-08-2019, 08:08 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hithere View Post
UPDATE

Before I started reading your posts, I was 70% leaning towards DCT. Why? In Australia, DCT and MT are priced identically. I have heard many saying, DCT doesn't get much better than this. And with a taller top gear ratio for freeway driving, I was interested in DCT and certainly wanted to test drive one.

But now, I am less interested in DCT. The consensus here is that, (a) DCT in auto mode is rubbish, at the very least, annoys people sometimes. (b) Shifting from 1st-reverse-1st is slow. (c) driven in manual mode, DCT is quick. (d) If repairs are needed, they will be more costly and specialised.

Meanwhile, MT is (a) primarily proven technology. (b) cheaper to maintain and to repair out of warranty. (c) Slower to shift gears. (d) the top gear in MT is 500rpm lower than DCT in top gear (possibly noisier). (e) consumes more petrol overall when compared to DCT.

According to the dealer, DCT outsells MT in Australia by a good margin. I think he said 70% DCT.

Now I am thinking of requesting a test drive of 6MT M2C... if it is available. This also means that I am now leaning towards getting a MT.

Thanks again for all your thoughts.
Mate, a few things

1. When blasting the car on a mountain road, the last thing on your mind is fuel consumption. Don't even use that as a factor to decide on the transmission choice

2. The only reason that there are lots more DCT M2/M2C on the market is because they are usually the only transmission choice that a dealer will order...most MT M2C were privately ordered and the lead time is around 6 months. A lot of people don't want to wait (nor dealers as they want to sell you a car they had already ordered) and are sucked into the 'better performance, better fuel economy' slogan

3. Nobody repairs DCT. The whole unit needs to be replaced if it is faulty. With a MT you can get any competent mechanic to work on it and replace parts.
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      12-08-2019, 08:19 AM   #39
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MT always if there is a choice...
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      12-08-2019, 08:31 AM   #40
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As one who traditionally drives manual and fairly recently moved to the zf8 (which although not as engaging as DCT is pretty responsive in terms of paddle response), I suspect you will tire of the DCT with time. I miss manual very much as of late (and the miss is even worse after watching ford vs ferrari).

Once you go manual you never go back, the same can't be said about DCT. That says a lot.
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      12-08-2019, 09:05 AM   #41
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The only way BMW or any other manufacturer will continue making MT cars is if people buy them. Glad to see you changing your mind. Sports cars should only come with 3 pedals in my opinion.
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      12-08-2019, 12:55 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
I would get the manual. There will be fewer and fewer manual options to come in the future. Sure, the new M3/4 will have a manual, but it's large.

I think this M2C is designed as a Manila, if you wanted an automatic, I would just go for the regular M235i
The new m2 will also have manual
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      12-08-2019, 01:16 PM   #43
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Drives: BMW M2C (BSM)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
But 60K is a lot of money, people should be buying what makes them happy, not what has better numbers on a piece of paper. Because the whole point isn't speed, the whole point is smiles.
Yup. Check the value you got for the money paid, what purpose you mainly use your car for (daily driver? track? mountains? mix?) and how much fun it provides when you do those things.
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      12-08-2019, 02:50 PM   #44
Daytona_550
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6MT is a blast!
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