[doughboy]

Plenty of cars with collar lift reverse lockouts. But that's not the issue here.

Never seen a 1st or 2nd lockout. Good syncros are your friends.

Only ham fisted slamming will allow a money shift in reality.

[mightyfox]

This brings back horrible memories of when i money shifted my dc2 type r. Engine exploded F1 style (shattered pistons came out the exhaust) i spun out and the car almost caught on fire. I was scared of shifting fast for a good couple years after that ( still am a bit honestly).

[chris719]

Originally Posted by doughboy

Plenty of cars with collar lift reverse lockouts. But that's not the issue here.

Never seen a 1st or 2nd lockout. Good syncros are your friends.

Only ham fisted slamming will allow a money shift in reality.

Exactly. There are no lockouts in forward gears except the Corvette that has an actual switch / solenoid to physically prevent it. The Corvette one only stops you at low RPM too, which is funny.

Even that Drivetribe article is wrong. It's just the natural resistance. If the manufacturers really wanted to prevent money shifts, it would be EASILY doable now that these cars all have Hall Effect sensors to determine shifter position for rev matching. I suspect there is some failure mode / liability issue that stops them from doing it.

It's pretty hard to money shift a BMW with rod shift linkage like you said, but I could see it happening with a cable shifted car. I've noticed they tend to be smoother and give less resistance. My Mazda 3 will let you into anything but first pretty easily at any time. Z4M... not so much.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Yup, mine did too. Man I miss my my ‘05.

It didn’t.

But then again I don’t think there has ever been a money shift into first. That would be... weird.

Also, do anything you can to drive a GC8. You’ll forget that fat thing in an instant.

[VisualEcho]

Maybe I'm confused about the lock-out's, I thought I had definitely read that about my STi.

But in any case, a shift from 2nd/3rd to 1st should not be possible at certain speeds/rpm's, and should be easy to accomplish. 4th/6th to 3rd might be a bit more difficult.

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by chris719

Got a link to an informed source? All I can find is that they are hard to put into first because of the gearbox being that way, not some intentional over-rev lockout. Bet $20 there is no lockout and it's just the speed / ratio difference and crappy synchro.

https://www.clubwrx.net/threads/1st-gear-lockout.82102/

I think a lot of people confuse or mistake a lock-out for the normal resistance of trying to spin up a synchronizer when downshifting into a low gear at a high rpm. It's almost impossible to shift into first gear from high rpm on most cars and that's because of the synchro, not really a lock-out.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by mightyfox

This brings back horrible memories of when i money shifted my dc2 type r. Engine exploded F1 style (shattered pistons came out the exhaust) i spun out and the car almost caught on fire. I was scared of shifting fast for a good couple years after that ( still am a bit honestly).

I wish i could have seen that, sounds epic.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by doughboy

Same but opposite for RHD... i.e. start back hand 1st to 2nd.

I often just use finger tips for 3rd to 4th.

If you dont slam gears the box won't let you moneyshift as the syncros will never get the input shaft up to enough speed for an normal shift force to work.

Take it easy, let the box do its job and enjoy the shifting...

This times a thousand

I dunno, maybe i just have too much mechanical sympathy but i've always felt perfectly timed (read: not as fast as possible) shifts felt way more satisfying than balls to the wall "how fast can i go" shifts.

One of my 24 hours of Lemons teammates always shifts our race car like a crazy person. He looks like a human-DSG out there. That's fine, it's a race car so there's no real excuse not to beat on it, but at the same time, we run the exact same times on the track and i'm double clutching my downshifts AND giving a second for the revs to drop between gears on the upshift. It just doesn't save THAT much time at the end of the day.

[arciga18]

So op never came back ?

[mightyfox]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

I wish i could have seen that, sounds epic.

Oh it was epic alright as in epic failure i slammed it into 2nd instead of 4th gear at like 8700 rpm must have over revved to like 12000 rpm

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by mightyfox

Oh it was epic alright as in epic failure i slammed it into 2nd instead of 4th gear at like 8700 rpm must have over revved to like 12000 rpm

Dude, please go into some more details.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Dude, please go into some more details.

I think this were his 'famous last words' before he got struck by a piston, some valves, the crankshaft and a clutchplate....

Cheers
Robin

[Economatic]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Maybe I'm confused about the lock-out's, I thought I had definitely read that about my STi.

But in any case, a shift from 2nd/3rd to 1st should not be possible at certain speeds/rpm's, and should be easy to accomplish. 4th/6th to 3rd might be a bit more difficult.

Interesting. My '18 STi definitely did not have a lockout. It was no problem at all downshifting into 1st. But 8+ years in a '09 WRX that was nearly impossible to get into 1st while moving at any speed trained me to not even bother in any manual car I drive.

[Artemis]

SkyDubBlue, were you driving in DSC OFF mode at the fatal moment ?

In the M2 and M2C, except for DSC OFF mode, rev-match 'warns' on downshift about over-rev before clutch release. The unpleasant over-rev noise allows you just the moment of realization to refrain from releasing the clutch - you correct the gear shift without damage.

However, in DSC OFF mode you shift into a gearbox death trap: no warning 'over-rev noise' before releasing the clutch. You release the clutch and you hear 'The Expensive Sound'.

Many people wonder why rev-match is hard-coded in all modes on the M2 and M2C (no auto blip on/off toggle as on the Cayman GT4), except for DSC OFF mode. IMHO 'money shift' protection is one of the main reasons.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the M2 and M2C, except for DSC OFF mode, rev-match 'warns' on downshift about over-rev before clutch release. The unpleasant over-rev noise allows you just the moment of realization to refrain from releasing the clutch - you correct the gear shift without damage.

This is great information for my sake, did not know this. As for the OP, I don't think he would have ever heard the noise because it appears he was likely going for speed in his ham fisted shift.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Conissah

This is great information for my sake, did not know this. As for the OP, I don't think he would have ever heard the noise because it appears he was likely going for speed in his ham fisted shift.

As long as you don't drive in DSC OFF, you're 'protected': as soon as you push the gear shift into the lower gear slot entrance, the rev-match is automatically activated: the rev-match wailing noise clearly 'warns' you if you're in wrong lower gear. So even on fast shifts, it can keep you safe from harm. If you ignore the clear warning and release the clutch = risk of stressing mechanical parts beyond the breaking point = money shift.

[mightyfox]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Dude, please go into some more details.

What can i say? i was pushing the car hard and type r Honda gearboxes are known to be easy to money shift. Moral of the story, don't try to shift like a race driver in your street car it's not worth it, although i must say, the insane trail of smoke i left behind was a sight to behold .
In the end honda quoted me about 9000$ for a new engine,clutch, flywheel...etc , i refused and the car still sits at home to this day (it's been about 10 years now).

[Tornado1M]

Originally Posted by Kuervers

google "money shift"

Basically it's a highly aggressive down-shift on a MT. Which means you end up wayy over red-line the engine. It's called money shifting because doing that will tend to harm/destroy the engine, and that is money out of your pocket because warranty doesn't cover it.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Artemis

As long as you don't drive in DSC OFF, you're 'protected': as soon as you push the gear shift into the lower gear slot entrance, the rev-match is automatically activated: the rev-match wailing noise clearly 'warns' you if you're in wrong lower gear. So even on fast shifts, it can keep you safe from harm. If you ignore the clear warning and release the clutch = risk of stressing mechanical parts beyond the breaking point = money shift.

This is true, but in the video he already redlined his previous gear. In this case the rev match feature wouldn’t exceed redline nor would rev matching help here because as far as the computer thinks, there is no where else to go in the rev range.

Your point does hold true though if you attempt to shift at a point that is below redline.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by pz619

This is true, but in the video he already redlined his previous gear. In this case the rev match feature wouldn’t exceed redline nor would rev matching help here because as far as the computer thinks, there is no where else to go in the rev range.

Your point does hold true though if you attempt to shift at a point that is below redline.

I'm a little surprised the cars with rev match don't beep or something. I'm not sure if it would really help if you are banging through the gears and dumping the clutch, though.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by chris719

I'm a little surprised the cars with rev match don't beep or something. I'm not sure if it would really help if you are banging through the gears and dumping the clutch, though.

Agreed. Luckily I never actually overreved the motor, but did get close one time when I was sloppy with the shifter. An audible warning would be awesome for those boneheaded times.

[Artemis]

Added to the first post of this thread:

EDIT by moderator Artemis

• Story: German (original): here | English raw translation (Google): here
• Additional video (engine replacement at the owner's expense): here.

On the original F87 M2, M2 LCI and M2 Competition featuring manual transmission, rev-match (auto blip) somehow 'warns' on downshift about over-rev before clutch release in all driving modes, except for DSC OFF mode. The cringing over-rev wail allows you just the moment of realization to refrain from releasing the clutch - you correct the gear shift without damage. However, in DSC OFF mode the driver shifts into a gearbox death trap: no warning 'over-rev wail' prior to releasing the clutch. The driver releases the clutch, followed by 'The Expensive Sound':

• When you shift into a higher gear, rev-match will not be activated. So you will not hear anything particular. And that's OK, because no over-rev antics.
• It's only when you shift into lower gear that rev-match will be triggered before you release the clutch (except when driving in DSC OFF mode): as soon as you enter/access the lower gear slot, rev-match is triggered. If you miss-shift, the cringing high-pitched wailing noise of revs unhealthily operating out of scope (impossible for rev-match to 'match' revs under that situation) will immediately catch your attention: almost as a natural 'uh-oh' reflex, you will immediately pull the gear stick out of that (wrong) lower gear slot into neutral whilst keeping the clutch pedal pushed.

Many people wonder why rev-match is hard-coded in all driving modes (except for DSC OFF mode) on the F87 M2 (no "sport"/"auto blip" on/off toggle as on the Cayman GT4). IMHO 'money shift' protection is one of the main reasons (or at least a fringe benefit).