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      09-20-2019, 06:16 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
43 kg is a nice number, but we have to be aware that 16 kgs is the wheels... Let's guess where the other kilos come from.
- 9 kg from the front carbon bonnet
- 6 kg from the carbon roof panel
+ ?? kg for the CCB kit
+ ?? kg for the extra parts
- ?? normal airco
MR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
If you refer to weight (apart from improved braking endurance and heat management) of M-CCB: the article mentions 43 kg weight difference between the tested cars, of which -21.7 kg because of M-CCB, -7.5 kg because of CFRP bonnet/hood and -4 kg because of CFRP roof (Sandwich-structured composite: "you can stand on the new roof - you cannot stand on the previous one").
It is stated in the article:
-7.5 kg for the bonnet
-4 kg the roof
-21.7 kg for the CCB kit

etc up to -43 kg lighter than the Competition.

So, I guess the wheels save up to 9 kg.
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      09-20-2019, 06:18 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Less than 2 seconds?
It's 2.1 sec faster and the article states that even without considering the better conditions that the Competition model was tested under thats a significant difference!
2 seconds on a short track is a lot! Do 5 laps and the CS is over 10 seconds ahead. Visualize having to wait 10 seconds for the Competition to pass after the CS crosses the line... It's a loooong wait!
Well this is not Hockenheim Short(2.6km long) layout.
They tested both cars on Hockenheim GP (4.57km long)....
This layout is 2kms longer....
So the rest of your comment is a bit...oh well...
And come to think of it, with a tarmac temperature of only 1 degree Celsius (33.8 F) when they tested M2 Comp how on earth could driver Gebhardt get heat into those PSS tyres and get that fantastic laptime in the first place?
I'd opt for Pilot Alpin wintertyres in those temperatures LOL.
Think about it.
Anyway:
The black layout is the Short Layout....the grey one including the black one where they did this test, GP Layout.
[img]
View post on imgur.com
[/img]
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I never said it was the short version of Hockenheim, just that it was a time set at a short track (as opposed to the Nordschleife or Spa Francorchamps for instance).

As I quoted in my first post on this thread;
The article clearly states that the 2.1 sec difference is significant, even without considering the favourable conditions the M2 C lap was set in.

I'm not sure why so many seem to skip that piece of information, which comes directly from the people testing the cars and that are familiar with the track conditions... :
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      09-20-2019, 06:30 AM   #91
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Regarding the price, it looks like 30% more for the base CS, without optional CCB (~9000), DKG (~3000), etc.



Noise: better than Competition, especially inside, but not loud/good enough from outside.

Lap time difference: M2C had the advantage of low temperature, while M2CS had better tirs (Cup2 vs PSS).
I would say, with identical temperatures and tires, the 2 seconds will stay the same.

Conclusion:A good step in the right direction, but not big enough to clearly differentiate it from he competition.
And it recommends the manual transmission, to enjoy it while it lasts. DKG is quicker though.
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      09-20-2019, 06:35 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The article clearly states that the 2.1 sec difference is significant
Actually, from the article: M2CS has one problem - the M2C. Even if the 2.1s seems significant at first glance, it isn't. The only things that produce this time difference are the extra PS and the stickier tires.
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      09-20-2019, 06:47 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
You have to admit(CS driving experience/enjoyment aside), tires do play a role in lap times. Super Sports are an aging tire, that have now been replaced by the 4S. An R compound tire(Cup 2) will make up a large chunk of that 2secs. The CS is going to be quicker than the Comp, but on equal tires it will be a lot closer.
For sure, tires play a very important role.

But it is also how all elements work in unison. For instance, the M2cs suspension is tuned to better take advantage of the extra grip provided by the PSC2 which gives it an advantage over an M2C shod with the same PSC2. The aero further enhances the extra grip from the tires. The extra power allows it to sustain the acceleration rate despite higher corner exit speeds. This is what I was alluding to when I said I am well over 2 seconds quicker with my M4cs than with my previous M4 ON THE SAME TIRES. My M4cs is able to better leverage the grippier R-comp tires. It's not only about the tires, it's how the car is setup to take full advantage of the tires.

Further, over a single flying lap, there is not that much difference between a PSS and PSC2. The PSC2 will shine over an entire session where the PSS will eventually become greasy and fall off significantly

In the end, it is difficult to really compare the lap times in the OP due the different conditions.
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      09-20-2019, 06:58 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The time for the M2C on PSS were set in 1 degree Celsius (not 30 as you have stated) which would be unfavourable to the M2C
I am not sure why so many folks say the M2C was at a disadvantage due to the weather conditions. I would tend to say the exact opposite and the article in the OP agrees with me.

From personal experience, my fastest laps are always achieved on very cool days. On hot days (read 32deg C), the tires quickly become greassy and struggle to grip and the engine response is much more sluggish. On a cold day, the first lap feels like you're driving on ice, but as soon as you get a little heat in the tires, they grip solidly. I've achieved my personal best lap on a 10deg C day 2 weeks ago, which is 2 seconds faster than best I could achieve during peek summer in 30+dec C weather. Comparing my data logs, my cornering speeds are much higher on cold days than hot days but my top speed in only altered by a couple of km/h, which tells me tires greatly benefit from the cooler temps.
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      09-20-2019, 07:01 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
As I quoted in my first post on this thread;
The article clearly states that the 2.1 sec difference is significant, even without considering the favourable conditions the M2 C lap was set in.
I'm not sure why so many seem to skip that piece of information, which comes directly from the people testing the cars and that are familiar with the track conditions... :
The answer is simple: denial

I tend to agree with what is said in the article. From personal experience, I am much quicker on very cool days compared to very hot days, and it's not only because of the power.
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      09-20-2019, 07:22 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I don't know why you are laughing? The instrumented numbers tell this story. The car brakes better and accelerates faster, while it actually had a worse slalom result despite Cup 2 tires. I am sure it's just margin of error on that, though.
It is an M2C + tune + brake upgrade (optional) + M performance parts and M4 adaptive dampers. There is nothing wrong with that, but that's what it is. I'm not a naysayer, just calling it like it is.
It is an incremental increase in performance for a larger increase in price. You know, there is a reason I can get an M4 CS for a massive discount, right? That does NOT mean it isn't a good car. I just don't think it's priced very well compared to the competition. The cost difference between M2C and M2CS will probably be as much as the cost difference between M240i and M2C, except you are further on the diminishing returns part of the curve.
Again, there is no doubt this is the best M2 you can buy, but it's just another example of BMWs strategy to increase profit margin and reduce R&D costs with these "halo" models. I would be excited if they didn't spend their money on carbon fiber body panels that do almost nothing for performance over something like magnetorheological dampers or wider fenders to allow for more tire on a car that is desperately starved for traction even with an N55 engine.
I don't own M2 or M2C, so I'm not a salty owner, just trying to be objective about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Yes, in theory CCB is only better on repeated stops because of thermal resistance. Pretty much every single car on the road is traction limited on the first stop.
You are forgetting one important variable though. The brake pads. These cars are tested with stock pads from BMW. I can tell you from personal experience that the stock pads on CCB cars just hold up better than the pads that come on the blue brakes (not sure about 2NH - but there are lots of complaints about the stock pads on the street, even). So, if you don't replace your pads with track pads, the CCBs can actually perform better. This isn't a real world example, because we all know not to track a car with street pads, but it IS what the magazines do.
CCB calipers also have titanium pistons. It is entirely possible that they brake better over a lap given stock pads and the increased thermal resistance to the fluid.
Do not forget that the CCB rotors weigh a LOT less than the 2NH brakes. That is unsprung weight also, as I am sure you are aware.
I am laughing at the CCB comment.

First of, very little lap time can be gained from braking alone. Fast laps is about maximizing average speed throughout the entire course and proportionally, very little time/distance is spent braking.

It has been demonstrated in independent tests that there is very little to no braking distance improvement achieved with CCB relative to iron rotors with stock pads, even on repeated stops. The CCB will be able to take more abuse over the course of an entire session before showing signs of fade but this will not be apparent over one or two flying laps.

The reduced unsprung weight is probably the only meaningfull benefit of the CCB, but it's hard to tell how much it's worth in terms of lap times.

Regarding the performance of the stock pads, they perform impressively well on track. I had one incident where the pad material sheared off on one of my front track pads and I did not have a spare set with me. So I had to install back the stock pads to finish the day. Looking at my lap times, I was only a couple of tenths off my best lap. The caveat: I melted through a set of brand new stock pads in less than a track day. It is also crtical to be very diligent with proper brake management with the stock pads to avoid uneven pad deposit and ensuing brake shudder. This is why it is much preferable to switch to proper track pads.

Magnetorheological dampers also have their drawbacks and I wouldn't say they are necessarily better than the valved ones (our RS3 is equipped with magnetorheological dampers). Each have their pros and cons.

I agree that the CS in general are massively overpriced from an MSRP standpoint and this is particularly the case in the USA. Like I said many times, the CS are not intended for everyone, but with the big discounts offered, the "out the door" premium is more than worth for those that it appeals to.
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      09-20-2019, 07:25 AM   #97
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An M2 CS is almost as big as an E92 M3. It sure is as heavy and has the same price.

They had gold in there hands with the smaller nimbler 1M Coupe priced at 51.000 euro in germany. At 340hp it was one of best fun cars to drive around. No electronic rear diff. An anolog car priced good.

If i could buy a new 1m coupe off factory i sell my m2 instantly!

Why was BMW M so popular because for a lot less money you could almost keep up with porsche s. Now they charge you porsche money and you still can t keep up with porsches.

Bmw must know it s place in the market fast and nimble cars for sensible money. If they charge porsche money it s has no sense to buy them. It s better to walk straight to the porsche dealer!
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      09-20-2019, 07:33 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am not sure why so many folks say the M2C was at a disadvantage due to the weather conditions. I would tend to say the exact opposite and the article in the OP agrees with me.
From personal experience, my fastest laps are always achieved on very cool days. On hot days (read 32deg C), the tires quickly become greassy and struggle to grip and the engine response is much more sluggish. On a cold day, the first lap feels like you're driving on ice, but as soon as you get a little heat in the tires, they grip solidly. I've achieved my personal best lap on a 10deg C day 2 weeks ago, which is 2 seconds faster than best I could achieve during peek summer in 30+dec C weather. Comparing my data logs, my cornering speeds are much higher on cold days than hot days but my top speed in only altered by a couple of km/h, which tells me tires greatly benefit from the cooler temps.
PSS are summer tires (successor: PS4S).

And there is "cold" and "cool": 1C/34F = cold flirting with freeze point (environment & winds); 10C/50F is cool.
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      09-20-2019, 07:43 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themightyshrek View Post
Regarding the price, it looks like 30% more for the base CS, without optional CCB (~9000€), DKG (~3000€), etc.
Your calculation is inaccurate. 61.900 + 30% = 80.400 | 61.900 + 45.40% = 90.000.

And it's "circa". Surfaced quotes all range between 90K and 95K (i.e. 45.40% to 53.47% extra | roughly 2 M2 CS for the price of 3 M2C).

On the side of the data sheet, M2 CS prices are indicated of M-CCB (€7900) and M-DCT (€3900). Hence, the circa €102.000 indicated for base price + M-CCB + M-DCT.
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      09-20-2019, 07:45 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
PSS are summer tires (successor: PS4S).
And there is "cold" and "cool": 1C/34F = cold flirting with freeze point (environment & winds); 10C/50F is cool.
At 1degC, when driven sedately on the street, the PSS will be as hard as a puck.

But on a track, you can put sufficient heat into them to get very decent grip, even in 1deg C "cold" weather. I know from experience.

Look at the lap chart in the OP, the M2C was able match the same g forces as the M2cs in some curves. If the M2C was at such a disadvantage, that would simply not be possible.
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      09-20-2019, 07:53 AM   #101
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Both cars logged 1.5 seconds to 40 kph, look at the slalom data and C lap time. There's nothing to suggest that the PSS were not working well. Ask anyone who's driven summer tires in freezing temps -- when they're "off" they're really off. You're hoping to make the stop sign, not collecting acceleration and slalom data. Sport Auto wouldn't have tested the C if the tires weren't functional.

Some of the contributors here haven't spent a full day at the track, or tracked in wide-ranging conditions...

In mid-summer, the difference between morning and afternoon sessions is regularly 20 - 30 F. Provided you get the car/tires dialed in during the a.m. hours, you cannot hope to match morning lap times once temps are in the upper 80's and 90's in the afternoon.

The difference between PSS/PS4S and (Star Spec) PSC2 over one hot lap is maybe 1 second, perhaps less. Some of you guys are vastly overestimating BMW's version of the Cup 2. It's street-friendly, good wear, not in the same neighborhood as the R (https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...+Sport+Cup+2+R). The difference is not like previous gen tire upgrades, e.g., Pilot Sport PS2 to Nitto NT01.

The difference between 90 degrees and 30's is at least 1-2 seconds a lap.
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      09-20-2019, 09:18 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
but we have to be aware that 16 kgs is the wheels...
MR
Are you sure it is that much ? I figure closer to 8~10kg for the 788M to 763M.
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      09-20-2019, 09:20 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Are you sure it is that much ? I figure closer to 9~10kg for the 788M to 763M.
Yes it is a lot lower I heard now... Only 7.6 kgs for all four wheels.

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      09-20-2019, 09:26 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
Yes it is a lot lower I heard now... Only 7.6 kgs for all four wheels.
MR
The article says 3.4kg, but I find that number a bit low based on published wheel weights.
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      09-20-2019, 10:10 AM   #105
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I may go for it as a keeper just to have an MT CS. Otherwise I'll just keep my MT M4 comp. The 4 concept is growing on me a bit but not enough to ever consider buying it.
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      09-20-2019, 10:15 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
At 1degC, when driven sedately on the street, the PSS will be as hard as a puck.
But on a track, you can put sufficient heat into them to get very decent grip, even in 1deg C "cold" weather. I know from experience.
Look at the lap chart in the OP, the M2C was able match the same g forces as the M2cs in some curves. If the M2C was at such a disadvantage, that would simply not be possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Both cars logged 1.5 seconds to 40 kph, look at the slalom data and C lap time. There's nothing to suggest that the PSS were not working well. Ask anyone who's driven summer tires in freezing temps -- when they're "off" they're really off. You're hoping to make the stop sign, not collecting acceleration and slalom data. Sport Auto wouldn't have tested the C if the tires weren't functional.
Some of the contributors here haven't spent a full day at the track, or tracked in wide-ranging conditions...
In mid-summer, the difference between morning and afternoon sessions is regularly 20 - 30 F. Provided you get the car/tires dialed in during the a.m. hours, you cannot hope to match morning lap times once temps are in the upper 80's and 90's in the afternoon.
The difference between PSS/PS4S and (Star Spec) PSC2 over one hot lap is maybe 1 second, perhaps less. Some of you guys are vastly overestimating BMW's version of the Cup 2. It's street-friendly, good wear, not in the same neighborhood as the R (https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...+Sport+Cup+2+R). The difference is not like previous gen tire upgrades, e.g., Pilot Sport PS2 to Nitto NT01.
The difference between 90 degrees and 30's is at least 1-2 seconds a lap.
Not so!

Compare this run with a previous run from 2018 when track temp was 45 degrees Celsius. That run recorded higher speeds in 4 out of 5 corners.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...ion-supertest/

Corners Air/Track 1/1 Degree Air/Track 30/45 Degrees
EINGANG M 125 km/h 126 km/h
SACHSKURVE 81 km/h 79 km/h
SENKE 94 km/h 97 km/h
SUDKURVE 106 km/h 109 km/h
NORDKURVE 132 km/h 135 km/h

It is quite obvious the 1 degree Celsius track temperature (+ wind, humidity or other conditions on the day) has a more detrimental effect on the PSS than the summer climate conditions.
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      09-20-2019, 10:19 AM   #107
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The delta in lap time to the M2C isn't overly impressive but the weather/tires certainly play a big role in that. I'd love to see a magazine put the same tires on both cars and run them back to back.

Overall the lap time puts the M2CS in pretty impressive company. I don't know if I'd trade in my original M2 but I do love the seats, carbon fiber and overall package.
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      09-20-2019, 10:24 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I never said it was the short version of Hockenheim, just that it was a time set at a short track (as opposed to the Nordschleife or Spa Francorchamps for instance).
As I quoted in my first post on this thread;
The article clearly states that the 2.1 sec difference is significant, even without considering the favourable conditions the M2 C lap was set in.
I'm not sure why so many seem to skip that piece of information, which comes directly from the people testing the cars and that are familiar with the track conditions... :
Well:
-It's not a short track, it's just the GP layout.
-There were no favourable conditions for M2C, 1 degrees Celsius asphalt temperature is very unfavourable for the PSS tyres. Tell me about it. Been there done that with M2C.....


Gerhardt also stated(last sentence) more or less: the difference between M2 Comp and CS should have been a bit more than what we have now.



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      09-20-2019, 10:44 AM   #109
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Just two things which I really find strange concerning favourable conditions M2Comp vs so called not so ideal conditions for M2CS.....

Parabolika
CS: 248kmh speedtrap( 154mph)
Comp: 232kmh speedtrap (144mph)

10mph topspeed difference!

And Senke turn
CS: 99kmh(61.5mph) 1.2G
Comp: 94kmh(58.5mph) 1.15G

That's some pretty big difference, still M2 Comp manages to be just 2.1s slower.

Where are the favourable conditions for M2 Comp/PSS in 1 degrees Celsius asphalt and outside temperature?




Just put M2 Comp on Cup tyres and give it a nice tune and there you go.;-)


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      09-20-2019, 11:10 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Not so!
Compare this run with a previous run from 2018 when track temp was 45 degrees Celsius. That run recorded higher speeds in 4 out of 5 corners.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...ion-supertest/
Corners Air/Track 1/1 Degree Air/Track 30/45 Degrees
EINGANG M 125 km/h 126 km/h
SACHSKURVE 81 km/h 79 km/h
SENKE 94 km/h 97 km/h
SUDKURVE 106 km/h 109 km/h
NORDKURVE 132 km/h 135 km/h
It is quite obvious the 1 degree Celsius track temperature (+ wind, humidity or other conditions on the day) has a more detrimental effect on the PSS than the summer climate conditions.
Seriously?... Different drivers, very different overall track configuration, and likely different track/surface conditions. You can't attribute the differing cornering speeds to temp alone.

Note that I'm not saying the PSS are at their best at 34 degrees, but the engine is loving it.

The M2 CS is absolutely disadvantaged at 90 degrees. It is not putting down its best lap time at that temp. Not debatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Just two things which I really find strange concerning favourable conditions M2Comp vs so called not so ideal conditions for M2CS.....

Parabolika
CS: 248kmh speedtrap( 154mph)
Comp: 232kmh speedtrap (144mph)

10mph topspeed difference!

And Senke turn
CS: 99kmh(61.5mph) 1.2G
Comp: 94kmh(58.5mph) 1.15G

That's some pretty big difference, still M2 Comp manages to be just 2.1s slower.

Where are the favourable conditions for M2 Comp/PSS in 1 degrees Celsius asphalt and outside temperature?




Just put M2 Comp on Cup tyres and give it a nice tune and there you go.;-)


Cheers
Robin
If Sport Auto is saying that the M2 C was tested in favorable conditions, why are you doubting them?? They were obviously able to activate the tires. You know better?

Your data makes the point, actually --

There was a 10 mph difference in trap speed into parabolika, with a nearly 60 degree temperature difference. How fast is the CS in that speed trap -60 degrees?

Comp with PSS is -3 mph through Senke turn. They managed to get that close, and match or be within 3 kph through a variety of other turns with the tires iced over? Ok.
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