BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
M2 Technical Topics > Cosmetic Maintenance (Wash/Wax/Detailing/Exterior Restoration & Repairs) > Paint Issue or Repaired ?

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-30-2019, 03:46 PM   #1
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

Paint Issue or Repaired ?

Yes, a bit of a mystery so I'll just present what I currently know.

The vehicle was purchased new from dealership [A] on August 7, 2018. We inspected the vehicle on a hot sunny day and didn't identify any issues. The vehicle was taken directly to our garage so we could locate a PPF installer. PPF film was applied on August 28th. When we picked up the vehicle the installer pointed out an area (drivers side rear pillar) commenting that the paint "appeared" defective from the factory. Husband and I agreed we'd address with dealer [B] during it's 1200 mile service.

During the next 11 months the vehicle has rarely been driven (husbands sister is battling cancer) as my Husband travels regularly to assist in his sisters treatments.

So last week he makes an appointment and takes the vehicle to dealership [B] which is closer in proximity than dealership [A]. The SA looked at the paint and apparently had a couple of other individuals analyzing the paint as well. SA returned and indicated that the vehicle "appeared" to have been repainted and a BMW rep would have to look at it directly to assess next steps. I pulled the Carfax report and also formally requested dealership [A] provide the VDC report and any additional information regarding the vehicle they had on file (mentioning specifically any repairs).

Code:
Carfax data (odometer):
2018-08-07 45 miles
2018-07-05 13 miles
2018-06-19 12 miles
2018-04-16 5 miles
Husband notified me yesterday that the BMW rep will be at dealership [B] end of week. I'd like to share a photo (very difficult to capture with a camera) and see what other M owners think of this paint. Repair or factory blemish(es).

//Monika
Attached Images
  
Appreciate 0
      07-30-2019, 04:24 PM   #2
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

And one more photo at a distance. You can see the edge of the PPF just below the blemish(es).
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      07-30-2019, 04:39 PM   #3
AlpsRider
Colonel
AlpsRider's Avatar
1650
Rep
2,593
Posts

Drives: M2 Competition, LBB, 6MT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

BMW can and do paint repairs if there is damage during shipping. Apparently the dealership should have documentation. I was informed at a VPC tour that the dealership is not required to tell you about the repair since it is supposed to be a "factory" quality repair.
Appreciate 0
      07-30-2019, 04:44 PM   #4
twin fed
Doc Brown
twin fed's Avatar
870
Rep
2,125
Posts

Drives: 2016 MG MT M2
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Isle of Long

iTrader: (2)

I run a body shop. That car has definitely been repaired. Those are gas out indications from the bondo when it was baked in the booth. There must have been some contamination in the bondo.
__________________


Appreciate 6
Got f1?70.50
mrs.boost219.50
ried593.50
ChiTownM137.50

      07-30-2019, 05:04 PM   #5
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

The following is noted (Deceptive Trade Practices Act) within our state of residence:

Code:
There is a common misconception among dealers that if vehicle damage falls below a
certain dollar amount, then the damage does not have to be disclosed to consumers. No law or
court decision in ***** supports this dollar limit exemption. On the contrary, if a dealer fails to
disclose damages of any dollar amount, he or she may be in violation of DTPA.
Regardless of where the damage occurred prior to the sale, I don't foresee anyone honestly disclosing this information to us at this point. If it was a matter of record we'd find it but as you can see this is all the information I was able to acquire. We're very concerned as to the type/extent of damage the vehicle sustained. Again, assuming this is damage (keeping an open mind here).

///M

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
BMW can and do paint repairs if there is damage during shipping. Apparently the dealership should have documentation. I was informed at a VPC tour that the dealership is not required to tell you about the repair since it is supposed to be a "factory" quality repair.
Appreciate 0
      07-30-2019, 05:12 PM   #6
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

This may very well be the reason the comment was made that the vehicle appears to have been repaired. There was also some comment about the rivets within the trunk area and a visible line of paint variance. We looked but it looks consistent with the passenger side but we're not experts in the matter.

Appreciate your valued input ...

///M

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin fed View Post
I run a body shop. That car has definitely been repaired. Those are gas out indications from the bondo when it was baked in the booth. There must have been some contamination in the bondo.
Appreciate 0
      07-30-2019, 05:40 PM   #7
Got f1?
Second Lieutenant
Got f1?'s Avatar
United_States
71
Rep
221
Posts

Drives: '19 M2C,'99 323i, '12 Audi TTS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

To me this looks like potential solvent popping. During the paint prep stage (highly unlikely at factory), solvent was trapped and "baked" out during the curing phase. As close to 100% as I can be from looking at a picture, this was not a factory issue. These are commonly called pinholes or solvent pop.
Appreciate 4
twin fed869.50
ried593.50

      07-30-2019, 06:08 PM   #8
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

Playing devils advocate here (based on the current feedback).

So let's 'suppose' dealership [A] damaged the vehicle and sent it to one of "their" auto body shops to perform the repair. Since this is an AutoNation dealer, they had a choice of [3] AN body shops ranging from 1.5, 11 and 17 miles (1 way) respectively. When evaluating the Carfax data, why are there odometer readings at 12, 13 and 45 ? I wouldn't expect that miles are recorded for each test drive.

Are we to assume a paper trail exists for these repairs ? How would I go about obtaining this information. Is this something we should place in the lap of the BMW representative ?

TIA
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2019, 10:36 AM   #9
Got f1?
Second Lieutenant
Got f1?'s Avatar
United_States
71
Rep
221
Posts

Drives: '19 M2C,'99 323i, '12 Audi TTS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Monika View Post
Playing devils advocate here (based on the current feedback).

So let's 'suppose' dealership [A] damaged the vehicle and sent it to one of "their" auto body shops to perform the repair. Since this is an AutoNation dealer, they had a choice of [3] AN body shops ranging from 1.5, 11 and 17 miles (1 way) respectively. When evaluating the Carfax data, why are there odometer readings at 12, 13 and 45 ? I wouldn't expect that miles are recorded for each test drive.

Are we to assume a paper trail exists for these repairs ? How would I go about obtaining this information. Is this something we should place in the lap of the BMW representative ?

TIA
Carfax data is not really reliable in this circumstance. The repair facility, Auto Nation or others would need to be participants in the data feed to Carfax. The repairing dealer or shop would have had to be a participant. Also not sure how long it takes from the work being done until posting in Carfax.

Bottom line is there is no question this was repaired post factory. If at dealer, there would have to be a record. If at port, there would be a record at BMW.
Appreciate 1
      07-31-2019, 12:17 PM   #10
Nick2016M2
Private
Nick2016M2's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
52
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Buffalo, NY

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 BMW M2  [0.00]
This was repainted.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2019, 12:37 PM   #11
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

Good point regarding Carfax and participation. However, it's also possible that the dealership specifically requested that the information be withheld from Carfax. When I reached out to the dealership (Monday) and inquired specifically about the situation (professionally of course), this was exact the response I received.


"
******,

I pulled BMWs Service History report for the M2 and have attached a copy for your reference. If any repairs were done by the factory, they would have been indicated there. I have no records of work done here either. I think this was an ordered car, so it probably wasnt on our premises very long.

Ive seen paint defects before on new BMWs, so its not unheard of, although it is very rare. Given that its been a year since you took delivery, it might be tough to get BMW to address it, but it would be begun through Service at either store if you want to pursue that. However, a fix would generally require sanding down the factory paint and repainting that area of the car, so its usually not something I would advise. "


I think it's safe to assume that this didn't occur at the port unless there are individuals here that can indicate otherwise. I honestly hoped this was a factory defect. If it truly unfolds to be something else then this is disheartening.

///M

Quote:
Originally Posted by Got f1? View Post
Carfax data is not really reliable in this circumstance. The repair facility, Auto Nation or others would need to be participants in the data feed to Carfax. The repairing dealer or shop would have had to be a participant. Also not sure how long it takes from the work being done until posting in Carfax.

Bottom line is there is no question this was repaired post factory. If at dealer, there would have to be a record. If at port, there would be a record at BMW.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2019, 06:10 PM   #12
skier219
Captain
United_States
539
Rep
955
Posts

Drives: 2019 X3 M40i
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

I definitely see a difference in the orange peel from the trunk to the suspect area in the first picture. Trunk orange peel looks normal for this car, suspect area does not. Orange peel farther down the quarter panel also looks normal.

In the second picture, I again see factory orange peel on the trunk, and also up on the C-pillar. Again the suspect area has different orange peel.

Given that a proper repaint would have probably involved the entire rear quarter and pillar, I am wondering if the suspect area is from a spot repair, perhaps one of those airbrush repairs. That's the only way I (in my limited experience) would expect to see such a local difference.

I know that occasionally minor paint defects get past the BMW inspectors, but I don't think they could have missed this one, due to both the location and how obvious it is. And I feel the same way about the port. They look cars over very carefully and they are capable of factory-quality paint jobs. If the port did their usual job you would never know. Finally, if this was simply a paint defect, I would expect the orange peel to be unaffected (ie, orange peel around a dirt nib doesn't change, for example). Instead, the variation in orange peel sticks out as a secondary indication something was repaired/changed and it sticks out independent of the underlying defects/damage.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2019, 06:31 PM   #13
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

In the morning I'll take another photo of the side as I believe there are additional blemishes (craters of varying size) that are very close to the PPF (PPF can be seen in the photo above). The paint in those areas "appear" consistent with the factory finish (again, not an expert). Here's an example of the crater (not sure what to call it, sorry) but smaller.

//M

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I definitely see a difference in the orange peel from the trunk to the suspect area in the first picture. Trunk orange peel looks normal for this car, suspect area does not. Orange peel farther down the quarter panel also looks normal.

In the second picture, I again see factory orange peel on the trunk, and also up on the C-pillar. Again the suspect area has different orange peel.

Given that a proper repaint would have probably involved the entire rear quarter and pillar, I am wondering if the suspect area is from a spot repair, perhaps one of those airbrush repairs. That's the only way I (in my limited experience) would expect to see such a local difference.

I know that occasionally minor paint defects get past the BMW inspectors, but I don't think they could have missed this one, due to both the location and how obvious it is. And I feel the same way about the port. They look cars over very carefully and they are capable of factory-quality paint jobs. If the port did their usual job you would never know. Finally, if this was simply a paint defect, I would expect the orange peel to be unaffected (ie, orange peel around a dirt nib doesn't change, for example). Instead, the variation in orange peel sticks out as a secondary indication something was repaired/changed and it sticks out independent of the underlying defects/damage.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2019, 12:28 PM   #14
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

Update:

This morning we both arrived at dealership [b] to meet with the BMW representative. My husband provided the attendant the key and we proceeded to meet with the SA. SA requested that we have a seat in the lounge and they'd be with us shortly. 45 minutes later (SA was no where to be found) we see the SA bringing the car around the front of the dealership. The SA comes inside and explains that the representative has deemed the paint a 'factory defect' and they will be repainting the panel. Of course my husband recorded the entire conversation with his micro recorder. We were both running late for the office so we thanked him for his assistance. Our quick exits allows us to group and discuss next steps and provide our questions in writing.

[a] Who is responsible for removing the PPF.
[b] Who is paying for the removal and re-installation of the PPF.
[c] Question for PPF installer. When can PPF be re-applied.
[d] Paint warranty ? Factory or extended ?
[e] Diminished value ?
[f] Reported to Carfax ? Service records.. etc.

I actually feel you guys were on point and BMW was trying to avoid a legal battle (which we were prepared to do). We just want the vehicle 'properly' repaired but we also have to look at the financial aspect. This repair may cause us financial harm in the future if we attempt to sell and or trade.

//M
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2019, 12:35 PM   #15
AlpsRider
Colonel
AlpsRider's Avatar
1650
Rep
2,593
Posts

Drives: M2 Competition, LBB, 6MT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

You could ask BMW for a Diminished Value payment. I don't know if it would fly but it may be worth bringing up.
https://www.thebalance.com/diminishe...cident-2645571
Appreciate 1
      08-02-2019, 05:14 PM   #16
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

I reached out to our attorney this morning to discuss the situation. Honestly, this is unfamiliar territory for both of us so we're just trying to establish guidelines as to who should be covering expenses (e.g. PPF removal/re-installation) and potential losses. I honestly hate to say this but our SA seems clueless to the process. He provided very little information as to who would be covering expenses. Only that a loaner car would be provided.

Perhaps that's all BMW feels obligated to extend us unless we apply pressure.

Husband did speak with the PPF installer and he indicated we'd have to wait 30 days before he'd re-apply the film.

//M

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
You could ask BMW for a Diminished Value payment. I don't know if it would fly but it may be worth bringing up.
https://www.thebalance.com/diminishe...cident-2645571
Appreciate 0
      08-02-2019, 07:19 PM   #17
AlpsRider
Colonel
AlpsRider's Avatar
1650
Rep
2,593
Posts

Drives: M2 Competition, LBB, 6MT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Monika View Post
I reached out to our attorney this morning to discuss the situation. Honestly, this is unfamiliar territory for both of us so we're just trying to establish guidelines as to who should be covering expenses (e.g. PPF removal/re-installation) and potential losses. I honestly hate to say this but our SA seems clueless to the process. He provided very little information as to who would be covering expenses. Only that a loaner car would be provided.

Perhaps that's all BMW feels obligated to extend us unless we apply pressure.

Husband did speak with the PPF installer and he indicated we'd have to wait 30 days before he'd re-apply the film.

//M
There are several avenues that you could try. The one thing that is not in your favor for the PPF is the length of time since delivery of the vehicle. They could argue that it should have been repaired before the PPF was installed. Of course it is not that simple, I'm just playing devils advocate.
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2019, 09:22 AM   #18
orangeglim
Lieutenant
United_States
317
Rep
440
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2C
Join Date: May 2016
Location: NC

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 M2C  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Monika View Post
Of course my husband recorded the entire conversation with his micro recorder.
Did you tell them you were recording the conversation? If not depending on where you live that could get you into legal trouble. Best to check local laws / restrictions about one-party consent on recording.
Appreciate 1
ried593.50

      08-03-2019, 12:40 PM   #19
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

You are correct, however we never noticed the defect until it was pointed out by our PPF installer. It could then be argued that the PPF installer shouldn't have placed film below the area in question without bringing it to our attention. However in speaking with him, he never noticed it. Car was on a lift when he applied the film in that area. Only after he inspected his work was it discovered.

I'm going to reach out to the installer today to get a quote for removal. Installation (at the time) was 300 per side. Also thinking we'll have the bumper and doors done at the time he re-applies that side.

///M

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
There are several avenues that you could try. The one thing that is not in your favor for the PPF is the length of time since delivery of the vehicle. They could argue that it should have been repaired before the PPF was installed. Of course it is not that simple, I'm just playing devils advocate.
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2019, 12:47 PM   #20
///Monika
Private First Class
45
Rep
146
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40i & '18 M2
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North America

iTrader: (0)

No, we didn't disclose our intent to record the conversation. Our attorney recommended we record the conversation and indicated it was legal in our state.

///M

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeglim View Post
Did you tell them you were recording the conversation? If not depending on where you live that could get you into legal trouble. Best to check local laws / restrictions about one-party consent on recording.
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2019, 09:16 PM   #21
buckybadger
BMW forever!
buckybadger's Avatar
370
Rep
1,180
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Just repaint and enjoy the car.
__________________
2020 BMW X5 xDrive40i
2019 BMW M2 Competition
2014 BMW 335i
2009 BMW 328i
Appreciate 1
ried593.50

      08-04-2019, 02:34 AM   #22
babym2
Private First Class
58
Rep
133
Posts

Drives: 18 M2 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: AZ

iTrader: (0)

x2 dont worry about the paint so much
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST