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      05-18-2019, 08:37 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be nave: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
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      05-18-2019, 09:42 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be nave: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
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      05-18-2019, 11:37 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be naïve: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
This is not a discussion of fraud or ethics. It's a warranty claim where the FTC has confirmed that the use of aftermarket parts does not automatically void a warranty of a OEM part. So why set yourself up for an obtuse and unscientific response due to the mere presence of aftermarket parts and shift the burden of proof when that burden is on the manufacture to demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the issue. The fact that Dinan is willing to warranty these engines with a piggyback using similar modifications tells you something (I wonder if this could happen with Dinan). Let's discuss root cause and risk for those modifying as opposed to legal terms and ethics.

As a user of BM3 stg 2 on 93 AKI Texas, I am trying to determine if the 98 RON map is to aggressive increasing the risk enough in non track situations. I do see some knocks logged here and there. Halim said don't worry about it. I am thinking of downgrading to the 91 map to decrease the risk.
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      05-18-2019, 09:35 PM   #70
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      05-18-2019, 09:55 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be naïve: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
This is not a discussion of fraud or ethics. It's a warranty claim where the FTC has confirmed that the use of aftermarket parts does not automatically void a warranty of a OEM part. So why set yourself up for an obtuse and unscientific response due to the mere presence of aftermarket parts and shift the burden of proof when that burden is on the manufacture to demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the issue. The fact that Dinan is willing to warranty these engines with a piggyback using similar modifications tells you something (I wonder if this could happen with Dinan). Let's discuss root cause and risk for those modifying as opposed to legal terms and ethics.

As a user of BM3 stg 2 on 93 AKI Texas, I am trying to determine if the 98 RON map is to aggressive increasing the risk enough in non track situations. I do see some knocks logged here and there. Halim said don't worry about it. I am thinking of downgrading to the 91 map to decrease the risk.
He has parts and an aftermarket tune installed on his vehicle when the motor blew, which allow/forces the vehicle the operate at a higher output of power that is deemed approved by the manufacture.

Now he wants to remove those said power enhancement, hide this fact that he used them and try to get the manufacture to pay for the repairs of his vehicle.

That is the definition of warranty fraud.


It doesn't matter if the aftermarket parts or tune caused the motor blew on the track, which it 100% is the reason BTW, trying to conceal these related facts from the manufacture is wrong.

Dinan doesn't instruct their customers to remove the piggyback when you take the vehicle in for repairs but instead they have their own warranty that supplements the manufacture's coverage in cases like these, so your argument is moot to this subject.

I'm not judging, I would do the same thing if I was the OP but at least I won't be in denial and try to sway the circumstances, however, won't be upset if they deny my claim
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      05-18-2019, 11:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be naïve: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
This is not a discussion of fraud or ethics. It's a warranty claim where the FTC has confirmed that the use of aftermarket parts does not automatically void a warranty of a OEM part. So why set yourself up for an obtuse and unscientific response due to the mere presence of aftermarket parts and shift the burden of proof when that burden is on the manufacture to demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the issue. The fact that Dinan is willing to warranty these engines with a piggyback using similar modifications tells you something (I wonder if this could happen with Dinan). Let's discuss root cause and risk for those modifying as opposed to legal terms and ethics.

As a user of BM3 stg 2 on 93 AKI Texas, I am trying to determine if the 98 RON map is to aggressive increasing the risk enough in non track situations. I do see some knocks logged here and there. Halim said don't worry about it. I am thinking of downgrading to the 91 map to decrease the risk.
He has parts and an aftermarket tune installed on his vehicle when the motor blew, which allow/forces the vehicle the operate at a higher output of power that is deemed approved by the manufacture.

Now he wants to remove those said power enhancement, hide this fact that he used them and try to get the manufacture to pay for the repairs of his vehicle.

That is the definition of warranty fraud.


It doesn't matter if the aftermarket parts or tune caused the motor blew on the track, which it 100% is the reason BTW, trying to conceal these related facts from the manufacture is wrong.

Dinan doesn't instruct their customers to remove the piggyback when you take the vehicle in for repairs but instead they have their own warranty that supplements the manufacture's coverage in cases like these, so your argument is moot to this subject.

I'm not judging, I would do the same thing if I was the OP but at least I won't be in denial and try to sway the circumstances, however, won't be upset if they deny my claim
You are 100% wrong - He can add/remove any part he wants. And he can tell the dealer anything he wants. None of that would ever be considered warranty fraud. A good example of warranty fraud would be knowingly replacing the part with a fake and asking them to replace it.
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      05-18-2019, 11:23 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be naïve: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
This is not a discussion of fraud or ethics. It's a warranty claim where the FTC has confirmed that the use of aftermarket parts does not automatically void a warranty of a OEM part. So why set yourself up for an obtuse and unscientific response due to the mere presence of aftermarket parts and shift the burden of proof when that burden is on the manufacture to demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the issue. The fact that Dinan is willing to warranty these engines with a piggyback using similar modifications tells you something (I wonder if this could happen with Dinan). Let's discuss root cause and risk for those modifying as opposed to legal terms and ethics.

As a user of BM3 stg 2 on 93 AKI Texas, I am trying to determine if the 98 RON map is to aggressive increasing the risk enough in non track situations. I do see some knocks logged here and there. Halim said don't worry about it. I am thinking of downgrading to the 91 map to decrease the risk.
He has parts and an aftermarket tune installed on his vehicle when the motor blew, which allow/forces the vehicle the operate at a higher output of power that is deemed approved by the manufacture.

Now he wants to remove those said power enhancement, hide this fact that he used them and try to get the manufacture to pay for the repairs of his vehicle.

That is the definition of warranty fraud.


It doesn't matter if the aftermarket parts or tune caused the motor blew on the track, which it 100% is the reason BTW, trying to conceal these related facts from the manufacture is wrong.

Dinan doesn't instruct their customers to remove the piggyback when you take the vehicle in for repairs but instead they have their own warranty that supplements the manufacture's coverage in cases like these, so your argument is moot to this subject.

I'm not judging, I would do the same thing if I was the OP but at least I won't be in denial and try to sway the circumstances, however, won't be upset if they deny my claim
You are 100% wrong - He can add/remove any part he wants. And he can tell the dealer anything he wants. None of that would ever be considered warranty fraud. A good example of warranty fraud would be knowingly replacing the part with a fake and asking them to replace it.
Are you serious? Wow.

I would to love to live in your world, were you make your own rules as it suits you.

Must be fun
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      05-18-2019, 11:39 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be naïve: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
This is not a discussion of fraud or ethics. It's a warranty claim where the FTC has confirmed that the use of aftermarket parts does not automatically void a warranty of a OEM part. So why set yourself up for an obtuse and unscientific response due to the mere presence of aftermarket parts and shift the burden of proof when that burden is on the manufacture to demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the issue. The fact that Dinan is willing to warranty these engines with a piggyback using similar modifications tells you something (I wonder if this could happen with Dinan). Let's discuss root cause and risk for those modifying as opposed to legal terms and ethics.

As a user of BM3 stg 2 on 93 AKI Texas, I am trying to determine if the 98 RON map is to aggressive increasing the risk enough in non track situations. I do see some knocks logged here and there. Halim said don't worry about it. I am thinking of downgrading to the 91 map to decrease the risk.
He has parts and an aftermarket tune installed on his vehicle when the motor blew, which allow/forces the vehicle the operate at a higher output of power that is deemed approved by the manufacture.

Now he wants to remove those said power enhancement, hide this fact that he used them and try to get the manufacture to pay for the repairs of his vehicle.

That is the definition of warranty fraud.


It doesn't matter if the aftermarket parts or tune caused the motor blew on the track, which it 100% is the reason BTW, trying to conceal these related facts from the manufacture is wrong.

Dinan doesn't instruct their customers to remove the piggyback when you take the vehicle in for repairs but instead they have their own warranty that supplements the manufacture's coverage in cases like these, so your argument is moot to this subject.

I'm not judging, I would do the same thing if I was the OP but at least I won't be in denial and try to sway the circumstances, however, won't be upset if they deny my claim
You are 100% wrong - He can add/remove any part he wants. And he can tell the dealer anything he wants. None of that would ever be considered warranty fraud. A good example of warranty fraud would be knowingly replacing the part with a fake and asking them to replace it.
Are you serious? Wow.

I would to love to live in your world, were you make your own rules. Must be fun
You mean the world of laws. I think you are talking about ethics.

Law - Unless there was a written warranty claim whereas the claimant specified certain conditions of the claim, this would never be considered fraud. There is zero chance of that holding up in court.

Ethics - While some would consider it unethical to pull mods before bringing it to the shop, I personally don't because I would want to protect myself against an unscientific root cause analysis that immediately points the finger at the mod. If they provided evidence and questioned you whether you had a mod, then I think you enter into unethical territory.

And BTW, below is the from the warranty book. Nowhere do I see it say, do not remove modifications before presenting for a warranty claim lol

Owner's Warranty Responsibilities:
– As the vehicle owner, you are responsible for the performance of the required maintenance listed in your Maintenance booklet. BMW NA recommends that you retain all receipts covering maintenance on your vehicle, but BMW NA cannot deny warranty solely for the lack of receipts or for your failure to ensure the performance of all scheduled maintenance.
– You are responsible for presenting your vehicle to an authorized BMW center as soon as a problem exists. The warranty repairs should be completed in a reasonable amount of time, not to exceed 30 days.
– As the vehicle owner, you should also be aware that BMW NA may deny your warranty coverage if your vehicle or part has failed due to abuse, neglect, improper maintenance or unapproved modifications.
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      05-19-2019, 12:23 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
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Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
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Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?
Wait a minute: so you bought the car with a set of OEM parameters. You changed parameters in order "to push the envelope" of engine management. You push the car on track and the engine breaks down after a couple of limp modes. And you suggest to conceal the parameter changes with a reflash to stock parameters in order to claim factory warranty ?

That's dishonest and may qualify as fraud.

Manufacturers warrant what they conceived. Not what aftermarket tuners make from it.

Don't be naïve: BMW only needs to run your VIN through their system to call up information that is logged, documenting what the car has gone through. And, unfortunately for you, it logs more info than you think. If you try to screw them, they will find out.

And if you go after the engine management tuning company, tell us how they handled your claim. Don't be surprised if they would tell you that no causal link is proved between their tune and the engine damage. And so you're left to your own devices.
This is not a discussion of fraud or ethics. It's a warranty claim where the FTC has confirmed that the use of aftermarket parts does not automatically void a warranty of a OEM part. So why set yourself up for an obtuse and unscientific response due to the mere presence of aftermarket parts and shift the burden of proof when that burden is on the manufacture to demonstrate that the aftermarket part caused the issue. The fact that Dinan is willing to warranty these engines with a piggyback using similar modifications tells you something (I wonder if this could happen with Dinan). Let's discuss root cause and risk for those modifying as opposed to legal terms and ethics.

As a user of BM3 stg 2 on 93 AKI Texas, I am trying to determine if the 98 RON map is to aggressive increasing the risk enough in non track situations. I do see some knocks logged here and there. Halim said don't worry about it. I am thinking of downgrading to the 91 map to decrease the risk.
He has parts and an aftermarket tune installed on his vehicle when the motor blew, which allow/forces the vehicle the operate at a higher output of power that is deemed approved by the manufacture.

Now he wants to remove those said power enhancement, hide this fact that he used them and try to get the manufacture to pay for the repairs of his vehicle.

That is the definition of warranty fraud.


It doesn't matter if the aftermarket parts or tune caused the motor blew on the track, which it 100% is the reason BTW, trying to conceal these related facts from the manufacture is wrong.

Dinan doesn't instruct their customers to remove the piggyback when you take the vehicle in for repairs but instead they have their own warranty that supplements the manufacture's coverage in cases like these, so your argument is moot to this subject.

I'm not judging, I would do the same thing if I was the OP but at least I won't be in denial and try to sway the circumstances, however, won't be upset if they deny my claim
You are 100% wrong - He can add/remove any part he wants. And he can tell the dealer anything he wants. None of that would ever be considered warranty fraud. A good example of warranty fraud would be knowingly replacing the part with a fake and asking them to replace it.
Are you serious? Wow.

I would to love to live in your world, were you make your own rules. Must be fun
You mean the world of laws. I think you are talking about ethics.

Law - Unless there was a written warranty claim whereas the claimant specified certain conditions of the claim, this would never be considered fraud. There is zero chance of that holding up in court.

Ethics - While some would consider it unethical to pull mods before bringing it to the shop, I personally don't because I would want to protect myself against an unscientific root cause analysis that immediately points the finger at the mod. If they provided evidence and questioned you whether you had a mod, then I think you enter into unethical territory.
You're right, it's not illegal but unethical to conceal a tune. I didn't go into semantics and just painted it all with a broad brush as in any obviously attempt at deceiving the manufacture. My bad.

Still doesn't make it right and no point in arguing; they're going to open a PUMA case for a large engine claim, dig into the ECU and deny the claim based on the tune, so their dispute is pointless anyways.
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      05-19-2019, 12:33 AM   #76
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I think everyone is forgetting that there is an EDR in these cars. The EDR may also be used see what happened right before the engine blew chunks. Also based on how I've read the posts I believe the OP knows he may have to pay out of pocket.

Last edited by omasou; 05-22-2019 at 08:59 AM..
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      05-19-2019, 08:04 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
I think everyone is forgetting that there is an EDR in these cars.
For those unaware, an event data recorder or EDR, sometimes referred to informally as an automotive "black box" (by analogy with the common nickname for flight recorders), is a device installed in some automobiles to record information related to vehicle crashes or accidents.
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      05-19-2019, 09:47 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5cd8bf57c090c61546700d53

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5cd86708ae729b3d21931253

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5cd89e31ae729b3d219312e2

These were the only logs that made it.
OP, the logs posted look to me not the log of when rod broke, but rather a before and/or after.

From those limited logging channels you pulled out, octane isn't the best but not terrible, but the IAT climbed too quickly.

What did PTF say?
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      05-19-2019, 10:26 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
I think everyone is forgetting that there is an EDR in these cars.
For those unaware, an event data recorder or EDR, sometimes referred to informally as an automotive "black box" (by analogy with the common nickname for flight recorders), is a device installed in some automobiles to record information related to vehicle crashes or accidents.
From manual "EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs" further, I don't think it records the types of parameters that would reveal someone using a tune
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      05-19-2019, 12:46 PM   #80
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OP, the logs posted look to me not the log of when rod broke, but rather a before and/or after.

From those limited logging channels you pulled out, octane isn't the best but not terrible, but the IAT climbed too quickly.

What did PTF say?
Unfortunately, those were the only logs that were able to be saved. I was sure I turned on data logging for my last run but apparently it didn't save.

Any guesses as to the strange IAT climb?

As mentioned, it wasn't even a hot day and I didn't even run back to back.

Could this be tune related or hardware related.

I will send to PTF for review and update.
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      05-19-2019, 01:24 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
From manual "EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs" further, I don't think it records the types of parameters that would reveal someone using a tune
It's a data block that is continuously overwritten with everything NHTSA requires and whatever else BMW deems important to diagnosis a car. NHTSA requires the data in the event of a crash but there may be useful information in their to help BMW decode other issues like money shifts, etc. BTW, just guessing what is stored b/c no-one really knows.

https://www.crashdatagroup.com/edr-news/

Last edited by omasou; 05-19-2019 at 01:32 PM..
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      05-19-2019, 01:53 PM   #82
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Or instead of doing all that just be honest and tell them what happened and see if they will work with you. If you're a loyal customer and have purchased other new M cars before they probably will. If you have data logs of how the car was driven to show that it wasn't over heated or money shifted that would help as well.
The problem is that you can have the best relationship with a dealer, but when something catastrophic happens and results in a warrenty claim, the approval of such claim goes to a hierarchy within BMW, the dealer has little or no input as to the outcome of the decision. It seems like you can't be a field rep for BMW, unless you are a totally committed company man (or woman), and abide by a set of strict guidelines dictated by BMW. There are occasions where a dealer may step up to the plate for a good customer, even when denied by a field rep, but I suspect there is a cutoff point where goodwill isn't worth the cost of repair, and this case may be one of them.
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      05-19-2019, 02:05 PM   #83
msmiljanic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
From manual "EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs" further, I don't think it records the types of parameters that would reveal someone using a tune
It's a data block that is continuously overwritten with everything NHTSA requires and whatever else BMW deems important to diagnosis a car. NHTSA requires the data in the event of a crash but there may be useful information in their to help BMW decode other issues like money shifts, etc. BTW, just guessing what is stored b/c no-one really knows.

https://www.crashdatagroup.com/edr-news/
I am wondering why we don't stick to what the manual says - EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs - I don't think the language can get more clear(only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs). It doesn't say continuous recording. It doesn't say recording when a fault occurs. But you seem to be making statements that are contradictory - why? Do you know something that demonstrates that the manual is wrong?

Manual Text
This vehicle is equipped with an event data re‐ corder EDR. The main purpose of an EDR is to record, in certain crash or near crash-like situa‐ tions, such as an air bag deployment or hitting a road obstacle, data that will assist in under‐ standing how a vehicle's systems performed. The EDR is designed to record data related to vehicle dynamics and safety systems for a short period of time, typically 30 seconds or less.
The EDR in this vehicle is designed to record such data as:
▷ How various systems in your vehicle were operating.
▷ Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts were fastened.
▷ How far, if at all, the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or brake pedal.
▷ How fast the vehicle was traveling.
This data can help provide a better under‐ standing of the circumstances in which crashes and injuries occur.
EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs; no data is re‐ corded by the EDR under normal driving condi‐ tions and no personal data, for instance name, gender, age, and crash location, are recorded.
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      05-19-2019, 02:24 PM   #84
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Im an fsm at a Toyota dealer in Canada and I can tell you its definately worth it to revert to stock and bring it in hoping for some goodwill.

We just had a customer with a 2016 4Runner whos engine blew. They never did a single oil change and are at 60,000 kms. Intitially Toyota Canada denied their claim of course but after enough complaining on their end our dealership covered all the labour for the install of a new engine for free. All they paid for was a used engine we found them.
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      05-19-2019, 02:56 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
I am wondering why we don't stick to what the manual says - EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs - I don't think the language can get more clear(only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs). It doesn't say continuous recording. It doesn't say recording when a fault occurs. But you seem to be making statements that are contradictory - why? Do you know something that demonstrates that the manual is wrong?

Manual Text
This vehicle is equipped with an event data re‐ corder EDR. The main purpose of an EDR is to record, in certain crash or near crash-like situa‐ tions, such as an air bag deployment or hitting a road obstacle, data that will assist in under‐ standing how a vehicle's systems performed. The EDR is designed to record data related to vehicle dynamics and safety systems for a short period of time, typically 30 seconds or less.
The EDR in this vehicle is designed to record such data as:
▷ How various systems in your vehicle were operating.
▷ Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts were fastened.
▷ How far, if at all, the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or brake pedal.
▷ How fast the vehicle was traveling.
This data can help provide a better under‐ standing of the circumstances in which crashes and injuries occur.
EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a nontrivial crash situation occurs; no data is re‐ corded by the EDR under normal driving condi‐ tions and no personal data, for instance name, gender, age, and crash location, are recorded.
How will the EDR record data prior to the crash if it is not continuously recording?

Obviously, an Internet post so not sure how accurate it is. Well all are information from the Internet
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=15

PRE-CRASH DATA -1 Sec
o Ignition Cycle, Crash (cycle)
o Safety Belt Status, Driver
o Safety Belt Status, Front Passenger
o Air Bag Warning Lamp (On,Off)
o Air Bag Suppression Switch Status, Front Passenger
o Seat Track Position Switch Status, Driver
o Seat Track Position Switch Status, Foremost, Front Passenger
o Occupant Size Classification, Front Passenger (Child)
PRE-CRASH DATA -5 to 0 Sec
o Speed, Vehicle Indicated (MPH)
o Accelerator Pedal, % Full (%)
o Engine RPM
o Steering Input (deg)
o Service Brake, On/Off
o ABS Activity (Engaged, Non-engaged)
o Stability Control (On Engaged, Non-engaged
)

This one is from back in 2014, so yes it is old...
https://www.edmunds.com/car-technolo...rash-data.html

Put everything the devices do in an owner's guide and "instead of one paragraph, you'd have potentially another 20 or 30 pages. That really wouldn't be realistic," says Richard Ruth, a black box equipment trainer, expert witness and consultant who worked at Ford Motor Co. for 33 years, including a stint evaluating event data recorders and other safety equipment. "It's not going to change whether or not you're going to buy the car

Most event data recorders are programmed to record data in a continuous loop, writing over information again and again until a vehicle is in a front-end collision or other crash. When an accident occurs, the device automatically saves up to 5 seconds of data from immediately before, during and after an incident.


The mandate did, however, provide a minimum standard for the type of data that EDRs would be required to record: at least 15 types of crash data. Some of the required crash data include pre-crash speed, engine throttle, brake use, measured changes in forward velocity (Delta-V), driver safety belt use, airbag warning lamp status and airbag deployment times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder
In addition to the required data, NHTSA also set standards for 30 other types of data if EDRs were voluntarily configured to record them. For example, if a manufacturer configured an EDR to record engine RPMs or ABS activity, then the EDR would have to record 5 seconds of those pre-crash data in half-second increments.

http://www.crashdataservices.net/Vehicles.html
Today, most General Motors EDRs record 2 or 5 seconds of pre crash data. General Motors EDRs can also record data in deployment (airbag) or non-deployment (no airbag) crashes.

Ford EDRs were installed, they were often capable of recording about 20 seconds of pre-crash data, as well as 5 seconds of post-crash data, giving reconstruction experts a clear illustration of how the vehicle was being
operated before, during and after a crash sequence.
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      05-19-2019, 03:22 PM   #86
akkando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkurahara View Post
I’m an fsm at a Toyota dealer in Canada and I can tell you it’s definately worth it to revert to stock and bring it in hoping for some goodwill.

We just had a customer with a 2016 4Runner who’s engine blew. They never did a single oil change and are at 60,000 kms. Intitially Toyota Canada denied their claim of course but after enough complaining on their end our dealership covered all the labour for the install of a new engine for free. All they paid for was a used engine we found them.
What complaint did they have?
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      05-19-2019, 04:11 PM   #87
msmiljanic
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I am not sure of the exact architecture, but it could have continuous recording ram chips that posts to flash storage when an accident occurs. Regardless, since an accident didn't occur nothing will be persisted. And even if it did continuously record on a persisted storage, all you would have to do is run the car for a couple minutes to overwrite the data. So, we all now know that BMW won't be able to extract jack from the EDR unless an accident occurred which was my original point.
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      05-19-2019, 08:32 PM   #88
Jkurahara
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What complaint did they have?
No genuine complaint, but their position was nobody reminded me to do my oil changes so its your fault it never went to court or anything at all. Toyota Canada dismisses them due to lack of maintenance and negligence but as a dealer we helped them out. Keep in mind this is a customer that bought one car from us and never used us for service..not a very valuable customer.

You might have a chance if you just never go away, even if you are in the wrong
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