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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > Blown Engine/Piston (M2 modded with catted DP & BM3 tune) - Suggestions ?

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      05-16-2019, 11:01 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseyu View Post
To make a definitive statement that the mods did not cause the failure is being naive.
I certainly can not be certain beyond a doubt but I do believe that the odds are in my favor of being correct. There's way too many people running these mods and more with no engine failure. There's a thread of an M2 being converted entirely to a track car and regularly raced competitively with no engine failure. When the dust settles I still think that this is a motor failure that would have happened regardless if modded or not. Time will tell. We're all just guessing at this point.
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      05-16-2019, 11:11 AM   #24
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Try telling a dealer that there are many people running the same mods with no engine failure and that's why it is BMW's fault. I am pretty sure the warranty will be denied right away. If the OP has a pretty good relationship with the service department at the dealer, I think the best way forward is to fess up about what happened and ask for some good will. There are certain strings that the dealer can pull and they would love to do a job like this because of all the labor involved. I wouldn't go in there guns blazing accusing BMW of building a faulty engine because other people have used the same mods with no failure. Good luck to the OP.

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Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post
I certainly can not be certain beyond a doubt but I do believe that the odds are in my favor of being correct. There's way too many people running these mods and more with no engine failure. There's a thread of an M2 being converted entirely to a track car and regularly raced competitively with no engine failure. When the dust settles I still think that this is a motor failure that would have happened regardless if modded or not. Time will tell. We're all just guessing at this point.
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      05-16-2019, 11:14 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseyu View Post
Try telling a dealer that there are many people running the same mods with no engine failure and that's why it is BMW's fault. I am pretty sure the warranty will be denied right away. If the OP has a pretty good relationship with the service department at the dealer, I think the best way forward is to fess up about what happened and ask for some good will. There are certain strings that the dealer can pull and they would love to do a job like this because of all the labor involved. I wouldn't go in there guns blazing accusing BMW of building a faulty engine because other people have used the same mods with no failure. Good luck to the OP.
I'm not suggesting that he do that. I'm merely saying that this failure could very well have occurred with no mods but warranty will be denied because of mods.
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      05-16-2019, 11:22 AM   #26
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Possible, but highly unlikely. Within my local track community, I have heard of a couple of instances of something similar happening. Both cars had downpipes, intercooler, and were tuned. One happened at Road America and the second happened at the Autobahn Country Club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post
I'm not suggesting that he do that. I'm merely saying that this failure could very well have occurred with no mods but warranty will be denied because of mods.
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      05-16-2019, 11:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseyu View Post
Possible, but highly unlikely. Within my local track community, I have heard of a couple of instances of something similar happening. Both cars had downpipes, intercooler, and were tuned. One happened at Road America and the second happened at the Autobahn Country Club.

Interesting.
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      05-16-2019, 12:01 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post

I'm sure you can order one but it will cost a pretty penny or two.

You can buy used...

https://www.usedbmwengines.us/engine...m-352659744999

or new...

https://parts.bmwnorthwest.com/p/BMW...SABEgIk8vD_BwE

or maybe an opportunity to upgrade...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-BMW-M4...4AAOSwtXtbA2~b
You did a good job finding the most expensive examples of n55 motors for sale here

OP there are tons of used n55 complete engines for sale at $4k-$8k on ebay, and used s55s for $10k
still not cheap but cheaper.
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      05-16-2019, 12:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GerardzM View Post
Honestly......there shouldn't even be tunes available for 91 octane...that's not even sufficient for the stock car.

It's just plain bad.


Please keep us informed OP.
We all wish you the best
I use shell 91 octane, are you daying thats bad?
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      05-16-2019, 12:37 PM   #30
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Why would downpipe void warranty tho?

It makes it easier for outgoing pressure to get out doenst increase incoming.?
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      05-16-2019, 12:45 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
Why would downpipe void warranty tho?

It makes it easier for outgoing pressure to get out doenst increase incoming.?
The dealer is not going to work on a vehicle with an aftermarket downpipe; for one it's illegal to alter a smog control device, which is a arrestable offense in CA and also they are not going to take on the liability of removing or installing a part not approved for the vehicle from the manufacture, especially a federally mandated part.

A customer with such mods is not worth the hassle and I don't blame them.
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      05-16-2019, 12:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The dealer is not going to work on a vehicle with an aftermarket downpipe; for one it's illegal to alter a smog control device, which is a arrestable offense in CA and also they are not going to take on the liability of installing a part not approved for the vehicle from the manufacture, especially a federally mandated part.

A customer with such mods is not work the hassle and I don't blame them.
This is probably accurate. There's no reason to work on illegal mods, it only exposes the dealer to potential problems, with no upside. It's why I won't put a downpipe on my car, not worth voiding a powertrain warranty. Regardless of whether it actually affects your engine, the dealer will say it does and you're going to spend far more money on an expert engineer, attorney, and, likely, arbitration costs than to purchase a new engine.

In theory dealers/manufacturers can't void your warranty purely due to aftermarket parts. In reality, you can't afford to fight them.
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      05-16-2019, 01:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmm_22 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The dealer is not going to work on a vehicle with an aftermarket downpipe; for one it's illegal to alter a smog control device, which is a arrestable offense in CA and also they are not going to take on the liability of installing a part not approved for the vehicle from the manufacture, especially a federally mandated part.

A customer with such mods is not work the hassle and I don't blame them.
This is probably accurate. There's no reason to work on illegal mods, it only exposes the dealer to potential problems, with no upside. It's why I won't put a downpipe on my car, not worth voiding a powertrain warranty. Regardless of whether it actually affects your engine, the dealer will say it does and you're going to spend far more money on an expert engineer, attorney, and, likely, arbitration costs than to purchase a new engine.

In theory dealers/manufacturers can't void your warranty purely due to aftermarket parts. In reality, you can't afford to fight them.
Same here, I almost drunk-ordered a FS downpipe so many times but something ironic kept turning over in my mind beside all the other possible negatives; If the downpipe doesn't cause a CEL, that means that there is really no benefit over stock, so no power gains anyways.

"High flow" cats that are actually flowing at a higher rate than stock cats should trigger a CEL. Why even bother half risking it all for questionable gains.. :

The only real solution if you're going after more power is a balls-out catless DP with a tune to disable the emissions check.. At least then you know exactly what you're getting yourself into without some wary assurances..
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      05-16-2019, 01:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Same here, I almost drunk-ordered a FS downpipe so many times but something ironic kept turning over in my mind beside all the other possible negatives; If the downpipe doesn't cause a CEL, that means that there is really no benefit over stock, so no power gains anyways.

"High flow" cats that are actually flowing at a higher rate than stock cats should trigger a CEL. Why even bother half risking it all for questionable gains.. :

The only real solution if you're going after more power is a balls-out catless DP with a tune to disable the emissions check.. At least then you know exactly what you're getting yourself into without some wary assurances..
They don't cause a CEL b/c they fake out the sensors by moving them out--just enough--of the direct exhaust path...

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=56
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      05-16-2019, 01:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Same here, I almost drunk-ordered a FS downpipe so many times but something ironic kept turning over in my mind beside all the other possible negatives; If the downpipe doesn't cause a CEL, that means that there is really no benefit over stock, so no power gains anyways.

"High flow" cats that are actually flowing at a higher rate than stock cats should trigger a CEL. Why even bother half risking it all for questionable gains.. :

The only real solution if you're going after more power is a balls-out catless DP with a tune to disable the emissions check.. At least then you know exactly what you're getting yourself into without some wary assurances..
They don't cause a CEL b/c they fake out the sensors by moving them out of the direct flow...

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8;postcount=56
With that logic, spacers should work on a catless downpipe without any issues then.. Which it doesn't..
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      05-16-2019, 01:46 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
With that logic, spacers should work on a catless downpipe without any issues then.. Which it doesn't..
I'm not an expert.

If there is a decrease in cat material and the O2 sensors are moved out of the exhaust flow a proportional amount then the sensors should continue seeing the decrease in emission the computer expects. That is until someone starts "tuning" other parameters, mixing gas, etc. IMHO those are people having a CEL w/the FSDP.

If you remove the cat entirely then there's no decrease in emissions between the sensors so the lower sensor would have to be so far out that it's not feasible to construct a catless pipe that way. Which is why it's easier to lie to the computer through programming...these are not the droids your looking for...

All that said, what the heck do I know.

Last edited by omasou; 12-11-2019 at 08:13 AM..
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      05-16-2019, 01:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
With that logic, spacers should work on a catless downpipe without any issues then.. Which it doesn't..
I'm not an expert. If they decrease the cat material and move the O2 sensors out of the exhaust flow a proportional amount then the sensors should continue seeing what they expect.

If you remove the cat entirely then there's not decrease between the sensors or the lower sensor would have to be so far out that it's not feasible to construct a hatless pipe that way.
I kind of understand what saying but I know for a fact the N55 is very sensitive to any emission flow changes; there is no way that said construction would adequately work without having a close-to-stock catalyst restriction.

And FS only claims a 20hp increase "with a tune." My theory is the louder exhaust sound with a sports DP is what fools folks into believing it's producing more power.

If your vehicle is new and has a proper functioning stock cat, there is only so much to gain with a catted downpipe, beside the raspy sound.
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      05-16-2019, 02:57 PM   #38
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I believe that it can be a failure of the construction of the piston.
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      05-16-2019, 03:55 PM   #39
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Can OP tell us when was the last oil change been done to the car, and how long was the track session? Also which fuel did you run on the track.
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      05-16-2019, 04:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
Second time limp mode went to check actual messages through BM3 and it show super knocking and fuel injectors shut off.
I'm no expert, but this sounds like the issue right here. Brocken piston can happen with super knock because it is very destructive.

If that is correct, the question then becomes what caused the 'super knock'? There could be any number of things, but I did think the DME protections were put in place to prevent this by retarding ignition etc. as soon as light knock is detected.

I suppose it's possible that if there were extremely high IATs combined with an aggressive tune, low octane west coast fuel, lack of fuel rail pressure due to LPFP starvation on track which would cause the combustion to run lean, possibly some other things creating a perfect storm of conditions that even DME protection algorithms couldn't prevent damage to the engine.

It therefore might be true that a Downpipe and / or tune are unlikely to cause an engine to fail, but a combination of bolt ons and conditions at a track could create the perfect storm condition that could cause engine damage. Perhaps a stock M2 would have gone into limp mode earlier, or run less boost etc. The truth is we'll never know unfortunately...

The OP stated at some point that the M2 was his first turbo car. My M2 is my first turbo car as well, and I personally found that I had a huge amount to learn about the way forced induction engines are controlled. I still have a lot to learn but I certainly wouldn't have ignored a super knock code in the DME on a track day.

Whilst I have sympathy for the OP, and I'd hate to be in his position, I don't think the takeaway is that the M2 isn't track suited, or tuning your car is especially dangerous. My take away is that when tuning, keep an eye on logs and error codes, even if you're not at the track, but especially if you are. BM3's logging and dashboard capabilities are great, and it does worry me that some tunes like the VF maps don't suggest getting logs or monitoring things like knock and IATs.
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      05-16-2019, 04:50 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
I'm no expert, but this sounds like the issue right here. Brocken piston can happen with super knock because it is very destructive.

If that is correct, the question then becomes what caused the 'super knock'? There could be any number of things, but I did think the DME protections were put in place to prevent this by retarding ignition etc. as soon as light knock is detected.

I suppose it's possible that if there were extremely high IATs combined with an aggressive tune, low octane west coast fuel, lack of fuel rail pressure due to LPFP starvation on track which would cause the combustion to run lean, possibly some other things creating a perfect storm of conditions that even DME protection algorithms couldn't prevent damage to the engine.

It therefore might be true that a Downpipe and / or tune are unlikely to cause an engine to fail, but a combination of bolt ons and conditions at a track could create the perfect storm condition that could cause engine damage. Perhaps a stock M2 would have gone into limp mode earlier, or run less boost etc. The truth is we'll never know unfortunately...

The OP stated at some point that the M2 was his first turbo car. My M2 is my first turbo car as well, and I personally found that I had a huge amount to learn about the way forced induction engines are controlled. I still have a lot to learn but I certainly wouldn't have ignored a super knock code in the DME on a track day.

Whilst I have sympathy for the OP, and I'd hate to be in his position, I don't think the takeaway is that the M2 isn't track suited, or tuning your car is especially dangerous. My take away is that when tuning, keep an eye on logs and error codes, even if you're not at the track, but especially if you are. BM3's logging and dashboard capabilities are great, and it does worry me that some tunes like the VF maps don't suggest getting logs or monitoring things like knock and IATs.
^^^^^ This makes the most sense.
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      05-16-2019, 05:01 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
I use shell 91 octane, are you daying thats bad?
I wouldn't tune on it unless you have something to increase that rating.
The car pulls timing even with just 91 and an upgraded intercooler.

These are High Compression, Forced Induction motors...octane should not be taken lightly.

But day to day use 91 on a stock car will have to do.
Crappy for us West Coast people.

But if I track my car with a tune I'm filling up the tank with 100octane.
Even if it is over 100 dollars to a tank. That's the price to pay...tracking isn't cheap, these cars aren't either.
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      05-16-2019, 05:13 PM   #43
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There is a 91 ACN specific tune for us west coast folks so these maps should fare better
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      05-16-2019, 05:24 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
With that logic, spacers should work on a catless downpipe without any issues then.. Which it doesn't..
There is a night and day difference when going to FS DP from stock. There is no question, your ass tells you and thatís better than any imperial data. If you canít feel it, whatís the point?
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