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      11-09-2018, 08:43 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Ah, okay. I didn't know those others are also 6".
Most cars do not require any cutting
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      11-10-2018, 08:52 PM   #90
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Not all 6" are treated equally. There aren't many 6" intercoolers available on the market right now and most aren't stepped. Here's what the regular VRSF street intercoolers (Similar size as Wagner Evo I, AA, VRSF Street, CTS) look like in comparison to our 6" Race intercooler option. The 6" refers to the depth of the intercooler but not all intercoolers share the same height

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      11-11-2018, 02:41 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
The VRSF Race produces lower intake temps than both the CSF and the Wagner.
Hi Taigo.. I'll put $5000 USD on the line that my cooler produces comparable hp to yours but will have lower IAT's..

tell me where to send the intercooler for unbiased testing.

we have documented logs showing IAT's barely touching 80 degrees on a 4th gear pull - lower than what your graph shows

talk can be cheap, but we're willing to back it up.
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      11-11-2018, 04:31 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
Hi Taigo.. I'll put $5000 USD on the line that my cooler produces comparable hp to yours but will have lower IAT's..

tell me where to send the intercooler for unbiased testing.

we have documented logs showing IAT's barely touching 80 degrees on a 4th gear pull - lower than what your graph shows

talk can be cheap, but we're willing to back it up.
We actually stopped by and chatted with you folks at SEMA last week. I had the pleasure of speaking to one of your reps who gave us some valuable information regarding your Malaysian factory. Your rep was very respectful and it was a pleasure speaking with him. It also gave us the opportunity to see your product in person.

The CSF intercooler in question was also present at SEMA and now that we've had first hand experience with the unit, I can say with 100% confidence that you lost this wager the moment it was presented.

With that said, I'm incredibly interested in getting a proper comparison from an unbiased 3rd party. The community would benefit greatly from a proper comparison and we've been waiting for the opportunity to show off what the VRSF Race FMIC is capable of. Keep in mind this is the same core and fin pack that is featured on multiple world record breaking N54's. These include the world's fastest N54 (9 second 1/4 mile - Daniel Buchner @ SimplyTuning) as well as the world's highest HP N54 (Jake's/Motiv's 1100whp track car).

I can't express how lucky I am to have the opportunity to do what I love. My family and I are truly grateful that our blood, sweat and tears have allowed us to put a roof over our heads and keep the bills paid. Fortunately we're not in a position where we need your $5000 but I know of a few organizations that could greatly benefit from that contribution.

How about we raise the wager to $10,000 with the proceeds going to a charity of the victor's choice? This way we can contribute to both our fellow enthusiasts and our local community

As far as logs go, here's a log of the 6" race if you need a refresher. This pull starts at second gear and ends at the top of 4th gear. The ambient temperature is 75 degrees, the pull starts at 89 degrees and DROPS to 86 degrees at the top of fourth gear. 3 full gears at WOT running 18 psi and the temperature drops through out the pull.

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      11-11-2018, 07:27 PM   #93
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Is there a Wagner rep here?😀
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      11-11-2018, 08:35 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atlas View Post
Is there a Wagner rep here?😀
In the past few hours we've been able to gather up 6-7 different testers all ranging from stock to upgraded turbos. Some cars have Wagners already which should make this a lot easier

Once CSF confirms the dollar amount and if they're ok with proceeds going to charity we can move forward.

Coincidentally we put together a giveaway for the same Race intercooler about a week ago on the 335i forums and we were lucky enough to land a couple testers who have both the CSF and the Wagner already.

We'd prefer to have one car do all the testing to eliminate as many variables as possible but testing 4-5 intercoolers in one day just isn't possible for one, unbiased, non-shop affiliated individual.

I also wanted to make it clear that CSF has built a reputation for their quality and performance over the years and this intercooler is no different. We've recommended their products as an alternative to ours in the past when we've had back orders and we'll continue to do so.

The point is to offer up a fair comparison so the community has access to the facts they need to make an educated purchasing decision.
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      11-11-2018, 09:40 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
In the past few hours we've been able to gather up 6-7 different testers all ranging from stock to upgraded turbos. Some cars have Wagners already which should make this a lot easier

Once CSF confirms the dollar amount and if they're ok with proceeds going to charity we can move forward.

Coincidentally we put together a giveaway for the same Race intercooler about a week ago on the 335i forums and we were lucky enough to land a couple testers who have both the CSF and the Wagner already.

We'd prefer to have one car do all the testing to eliminate as many variables as possible but testing 4-5 intercoolers in one day just isn't possible for one, unbiased, non-shop affiliated individual.

I also wanted to make it clear that CSF has built a reputation for their quality and performance over the years and this intercooler is no different. We've recommended their products as an alternative to ours in the past when we've had back orders and we'll continue to do so.

The point is to offer up a fair comparison so the community has access to the facts they need to make an educated purchasing decision.
Hi Tiago,

I'm currently in Germany visiting some of our distributors. I will be back at my office in the USA end of this upcoming week. Can you please PM your contact details, and I'll call you when I get back the following week, and we can figure out all of the details for this testing. (In no way am I stalling, but I am on the road, and it's better suited to handle this after I get back to my office).

Also, I'm comfortable at a $5,000 wager. I think this is plenty, and I really like your suggestion to put the funds to charity.

Let me discuss with my team, and figure out what parameters for unbiased testing would be the best, and we can discuss this on a phone call.

if you can PM your contact details, I'll send you mind back as well (phone, email, etc.).

also - none of my products are made in Malaysia so don't know who you spoke to regarding this.

As a starting point for reference:
1) What is the weight of your intercooler? CSF's is +/- 30 pounds
2) What is the height of the front face of the VRSF intercooler? CSF is 9.41 inches tall
3) How many rows of cooling bar/plate stack height do you have on your core? CSF has 17 rows
4) What is the thickness of the bottom core? CSF is 5.5 inches thick (not 6.5 inches thick)
5) You can confirm there is no modifications to install your intercooler? full plug and play like the CSF.


- just want to have all of the facts as many of our customers are track guys and a core surface the impedes airflow to other coolers in the car is extremely important as we take this into account when designing a cooling system, especially for the M2 as we have a 4 piece cooling kit which is proven to keep the car out of limp mode. Some sort of track testing, and heat soak testing should be part of this testing as well. So something we need to talk about and agree upon. Our main target market is not the highway pull customer.


Here are 4 runs of 3-4-5 gear pulls with the CSF intercooler (this testing was not done by CSF)
- JB4 Map1 for around 18 psi of boost
- 4x shorter pulls from 80 kph (50 mph to 130 mph), immediately brake and go at it again. This to not give the FMIC cooldown time.



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      11-11-2018, 10:34 PM   #96
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      11-11-2018, 11:24 PM   #97
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There needs to be a video documenting this FMIC Cage Match
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      11-11-2018, 11:52 PM   #98
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This thread just got super interesting!
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      11-11-2018, 11:59 PM   #99
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I can confirm my VRSF Race is 100% plug and play. Only modification needed was to trim surrounding plastic shrouds to clear the height.
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      11-12-2018, 12:55 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashimarho View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Sweden View Post
There needs to be a video documenting this FMIC Cage Match
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
This thread just got super interesting!
You're welcome
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      11-12-2018, 12:57 AM   #101
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      11-12-2018, 12:17 PM   #102
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I 100% agree that this shouldn't just be about a single pull on a dyno showing before/during/after IATs, and that the heat soak element is very important to include. That said, I'm loving the friendly battle between the two manufacturers and I hope it stays as professional and objective as possible. Please be sure to document and share everything so that an accurate picture can be painted by those not present physically during the comparison (ex. details regarding each respective FMIC like what CSF already provided is a good start).

Ideally, I'd also like to see the pressure drop between the participating manufacturers and also the flow through the fins to see how the FMIC affects the components behind it as well but I think that might be asking too much.
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      11-12-2018, 04:45 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuthlessE92 View Post
I can confirm my VRSF Race is 100% plug and play. Only modification needed was to trim surrounding plastic shrouds to clear the height.
That does not sound like 100% plug and play.
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      11-13-2018, 07:31 AM   #104
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I currently have Fabspeed downpipe. Future mods will be AFE dry filter, Fi or Remus Exahust and either get BM3 or Hex Stage 1/2 tune.

Which intercooler and chargepipe would be best for Vegas street driving if I decide for stage 2?
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      11-13-2018, 08:22 AM   #105
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Chargepipe ftp 👏
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      11-13-2018, 10:03 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D CHOI View Post
I currently have Fabspeed downpipe. Future mods will be AFE dry filter, Fi or Remus Exahust and either get BM3 or Hex Stage 1/2 tune.

Which intercooler and chargepipe would be best for Vegas street driving if I decide for stage 2?
HI,
Wagner EVO II, CSF or VRSF Race.
VRSF or Active Autowerke charge pipe

We also offer the REMUS exhaust and BM3, you can come and pick it up from the shop on Valley View
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      11-13-2018, 06:36 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by D CHOI View Post
I currently have Fabspeed downpipe. Future mods will be AFE dry filter, Fi or Remus Exahust and either get BM3 or Hex Stage 1/2 tune.

Which intercooler and chargepipe would be best for Vegas street driving if I decide for stage 2?
HI,
Wagner EVO II, CSF or VRSF Race.
VRSF or Active Autowerke charge pipe

We also offer the REMUS exhaust and BM3, you can come and pick it up from the shop on Valley View
If I do stage1 only would u still recommend the bigger intercooler? I don't want any turbo lag and I was thinking the VSRF 5".
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      11-13-2018, 08:30 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D CHOI View Post
If I do stage1 only would u still recommend the bigger intercooler? I don't want any turbo lag and I was thinking the VSRF 5".
if you are running a stage 1, the 5" is the better option.
VRSF 5" is an excellent product
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      11-14-2018, 02:32 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
Hi Tiago,

I'm currently in Germany visiting some of our distributors. I will be back at my office in the USA end of this upcoming week. Can you please PM your contact details, and I'll call you when I get back the following week, and we can figure out all of the details for this testing. (In no way am I stalling, but I am on the road, and it's better suited to handle this after I get back to my office).

Also, I'm comfortable at a $5,000 wager. I think this is plenty, and I really like your suggestion to put the funds to charity.

Let me discuss with my team, and figure out what parameters for unbiased testing would be the best, and we can discuss this on a phone call.

if you can PM your contact details, I'll send you mind back as well (phone, email, etc.).

also - none of my products are made in Malaysia so don't know who you spoke to regarding this.

As a starting point for reference:
1) What is the weight of your intercooler? CSF's is +/- 30 pounds
2) What is the height of the front face of the VRSF intercooler? CSF is 9.41 inches tall
3) How many rows of cooling bar/plate stack height do you have on your core? CSF has 17 rows
4) What is the thickness of the bottom core? CSF is 5.5 inches thick (not 6.5 inches thick)
5) You can confirm there is no modifications to install your intercooler? full plug and play like the CSF.


- just want to have all of the facts as many of our customers are track guys and a core surface the impedes airflow to other coolers in the car is extremely important as we take this into account when designing a cooling system, especially for the M2 as we have a 4 piece cooling kit which is proven to keep the car out of limp mode. Some sort of track testing, and heat soak testing should be part of this testing as well. So something we need to talk about and agree upon. Our main target market is not the highway pull customer.


Here are 4 runs of 3-4-5 gear pulls with the CSF intercooler (this testing was not done by CSF)
- JB4 Map1 for around 18 psi of boost
- 4x shorter pulls from 80 kph (50 mph to 130 mph), immediately brake and go at it again. This to not give the FMIC cooldown time.



Ravi Dolwani
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Tiago@VRSF still waiting for someone to contact us. I left you guys a DM on Instagram, PM here on Bimmerpost.. You were all ready to go a couple of days ago promoting it on instagram and guranateeing a win? why did you go silent?

We can't get the challenge going if we can't get rules laid out. I'll be back in the USA tomorrow, and ready to rock and roll on this testing.

Waiting for reply.
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      11-14-2018, 04:13 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
Tiago@VRSF still waiting for someone to contact us. I left you guys a DM on Instagram, PM here on Bimmerpost.. You were all ready to go a couple of days ago promoting it on instagram and guranateeing a win? why did you go silent?

We can't get the challenge going if we can't get rules laid out. I'll be back in the USA tomorrow, and ready to rock and roll on this testing.

Waiting for reply.
I apologize for the delay Ravi, I'm working remotely this week but our guys at home have been very busy seeking potential candidates for this comparison. I haven't seen any PM's from you, nor any e-mails or phone calls but we do have a little over 90 new Instagram messages from all the potential testers who want in on the action. For the sake of transparency, I'd prefer that we keep our communication public.

I appreciate you agreeing to donating the proceeds to a charity selected by the winner and while I'm a bit disappointed that we can't bump the donation a bit, I'm glad the dollar amount and terms have been ironed out.

Now I'm not accusing you of going back on your word, but I don't see anything in your latest comment that merited a response. It sounded like an attempt to back track and alter the original challenge that you presented to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
Hi Taigo.. I'll put $5000 USD on the line that my cooler produces comparable hp to yours but will have lower IAT's..

tell me where to send the intercooler for unbiased testing.

we have documented logs showing IAT's barely touching 80 degrees on a 4th gear pull - lower than what your graph shows

talk can be cheap, but we're willing to back it up.
Thankfully we don't have to argue about the specifics of how this testing needs to take place since you made the terms very clear in your initial challenge. To recap, you stated that you're willing to bet $5000 that at the end of a 4th gear pull your CSF FMIC will "have lower IAT's" than my VRSF Race intercooler.

I gladly accept your challenge.

We received an amazing response from the community on the forums as well as social media & I'll be sure to direct any qualifying participants to this thread so you and the community can personally assess whether or not they are unbiased.

I'm hoping we can find more than one test car to eliminate any potential bias. We can also use this opportunity to REALLY ring out these intercoolers on a longer 2nd through 5th gear log which is commonly used as the standard for FMIC comparisons as well as most tuners. I feel the community would benefit greatly from seeing how the two intercoolers fare under the incredible stress and load of a 2-5 gear pull.

Again, I want to make it clear that there's no animosity here. This is a friendly challenge between two manufacturers who believe in their products. At the end of the day, everyone wins
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Last edited by Tiago@VRSF; 11-14-2018 at 07:22 AM..
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