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      12-13-2019, 09:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Nope, wasn't born then. Was it as sharply divided as it seems now with everyone having a side and did it drag for years? Or was he largely unpopular and didn't have much party and country support?
It started with opposition to the Vietnam 'war' under Johnson (Dem) and continued through Nixon (Rep). The 'war' is what really drove the partisanship and there were strong feelings on both sides. Nixon actually won reelection and had strong party and popular support, similar to Trump. Watergate was his undoing, and that took years to unfold. He did eventually lose the support of his party but remained popular with a large portion of the public right through to the end.
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      12-15-2019, 01:01 AM   #46
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You only know that from the Kobayashi Maru simulation in Star Trek two.
Just FYI, I skipped to the TLDR
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      12-15-2019, 04:18 AM   #47
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Yeah, I've been missing out with this lack of time thing. I'll come back and read more of this tonight but op, there is a slight chance I too have something to learn from this essay of yours.
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      12-15-2019, 05:22 AM   #48
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Hey OP, it is the same in Australia. It seems we have the well educated and affluent inner city lefties on one side verses the more conservative and mainstream right of centre traditionalists on the other. It seems that the battle lines have been drawn and neither side will give an inch. Silly really.
In our boardrooms, our schools and our Universities we acknowledge that diversity is good, but in political debate there seems to be little room for acceptance and even tolerance of contrary views.
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      12-15-2019, 08:40 AM   #49
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Valid points I'll give my prospective so member can understand where I'm coming from.
A. I'm a libertarian in philosophy and would like as much power and influence in the private sector and have the public sector as small as possible (public is not just government it also public companies and unions)
B. Register Republican
C. I did not vote for trump in the primary even when the writting was on the wall I voted for Kasich
D. Overall I believe trump is doing a fair enough job.

But what makes me constantly go to trump defense has been the unreasonable and unfair treatment he has recieved by the media 90+% negative coverage, the opposite since day one (not my president, fake hate crimes, assaulting maga hat individuals) his own party (was an active movement to undermine trump the first year and a half by the gop), and the government itself (illegal surveillance and using low quality info to prosecute him and people in his staff then following illegal court pratices that is resulting in retrails now)

All of that just force people who believe in a fair shack, American core values and rooting for the underdog just to cheer for Trump and dismiss any scummy things he may do.

As for your Rome comparison I don't see our fall any time soon nor are we even remotely close to it since I see this as the american century, if anything we are around the Gracchi Brother period of the Rome Republic.

If a fall does occur I believe Russia is in a much better stance then China as their economy has a much more solid fondation then China.
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      12-15-2019, 08:45 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Australian Bimmer View Post
Hey OP, it is the same in Australia. It seems we have the well educated and affluent inner city lefties on one side verses the more conservative and mainstream right of centre traditionalists on the other. It seems that the battle lines have been drawn and neither side will give an inch. Silly really.
In our boardrooms, our schools and our Universities we acknowledge that diversity is good, but in political debate there seems to be little room for acceptance and even tolerance of contrary views.
The problem is they want diversity which works fine if the majority of the power is in the local level and everyone has the same core value and are able to communicate with one another but it fails when you have a top heavy government you can't have a one fit all solution when you have hundereds of different groups with different values and different issues.
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      12-15-2019, 01:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by dsad1 View Post
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
I see so many ppl on here say crazy extremist things and then get outraged when someone says something extremist the other direction. That's why nobody would agree.

Trump is for example a very extremist president on a lot of issues so you have to be crazy to think ppl wont either love or hate it and disagree with each other

Even to the op you write this post like you are sad there is no middle ground? But you are part of the problem!

How many racist posts have I seen you make over time? But you think it's just normal talk as do so many ppl on this forum think it's just normal talk. So yes many ppl like me who don't think it's normal talk will disagree with you very strongly. That's why there is no agreement.

Ppl are just acting too extreme right now and get rewarded with a lot of appreciates or likes or sharing on social media or something like that so they keep talking extreme.

I mean on this forum every few weeks you will either see some post that is racist against a Muslim or calling democrats as nazis or make fun of how ugly a liberal is or say something about a person in California. With talk like that how do you expect anyone to agree with you or talk normal to you?

I think anyone who is sad that the Middle is gone like you are pretending to be, might want to look in mirror and fix yourself before you worry about America or Putin lol
Curious, do you think you are in the middle?
Here we go.

Yea I know I'm an extremist for not believing muslims are subhuman. I'm well aware that you and many others here believe racism is considered Middle of the road talk lol.
i was just about to respond to your previous post, but then i read this post.
decided to give myself a root canal instead.
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      12-15-2019, 05:01 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
The problem is they want diversity which works fine if the majority of the power is in the local level and everyone has the same core value and are able to communicate with one another but it fails when you have a top heavy government you can't have a one fit all solution when you have hundereds of different groups with different values and different issues.
For me the key is acceptance and tolerance. By diversity I mean diversity of opinion. Around 30% of Australians were born overseas, so we have diversity in that sense: England (14.7%), New Zealand (8.4%), China (8.3%), India (7.4%), Philippines (3.8%), Vietnam (3.6%), Italy (2.8%), South Africa (2.6%). If you go back a generation or two the percentage increases. We are a country of immigrants. And one that works very well.
On many forums I see people treating others as the ‘enemy’ because they have different opinions or beliefs. People focus on identity factors such as age, sex, sexual orientation, religion and political view rather than seeing just another person with some differences.
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      12-15-2019, 05:20 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
I don't blame Trump for the problems that got him elected, the underlying anger that seethed amongst the blue collar and middle class as more and more of their jobs were taken, their sons being sent to unjust wars, the government intruding into their daily lives. The election of Trump was a backlash, and I get it.

However, what I do blame Trump for is the degradation of civility in our discourse and our conversations. Trump made it okay to bully. To call people names. To mock those who disagree with you. To make bigoted comments. And ultimately, to lie with utter abandon. Sure politicians exaggerate and lie to some degree, but the extent to which Trump does it, with the support and -- in many cases -- the encouragement of his base is unprecedented in modern politics.

Mainstream media has always been biased, but now, it's gotten to the point where both sides are engaging in straight-up lies. Why? Because if the other side is going to get their way by lying, surely it must be okay for me to lie as well. Utterly shameful.

Which is why I don't even bother engaging in debate on this forum anymore; if I have something to say, I just say it and move on. People don't want to debate or engage in discourse; they just want to say they are right and then throw out some links as if it demonstrates proof. Many don't bother to read their links anymore, even after they've been called out. No one issues retractions after they've been proven wrong. What makes debate interesting is nuance, i.e. the gray area. And rarely does anyone want to acknowledge the gray area.

So ultimately, that's the problem with this sub-forum now: a lack of civility and a lack of nuance.
Not even close, this has been going on for a while and the left are as guilty and arguably more guilty of it than just about anyone on the planet.
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      12-15-2019, 05:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Australian Bimmer View Post
For me the key is acceptance and tolerance. By diversity I mean diversity of opinion. Around 30% of Australians were born overseas, so we have diversity in that sense: England (14.7%), New Zealand (8.4%), China (8.3%), India (7.4%), Philippines (3.8%), Vietnam (3.6%), Italy (2.8%), South Africa (2.6%). If you go back a generation or two the percentage increases. We are a country of immigrants. And one that works very well.
On many forums I see people treating others as the ‘enemy’ because they have different opinions or beliefs. People focus on identity factors such as age, sex, sexual orientation, religion and political view rather than seeing just another person with some differences.
Acceptance of what? The only acceptance should be the values and tradition of the native country, because as an immigrant you choose to go there, they didn't kidnap you and made you live in another nation which is the whole point of assimilation. If the left promoted programs to help assimilation they would gather a ton of support but they don't they push policy that spits in the face of natives and undermine the immigrants ability to assimilate and follow the rule of law. Example, in NJ they will provide all the class to Spanish speaker strictly in Spanish and make no attempt to force them to learn English, furthermore those class are teaching sub par education which is generally 2 to 3 year behind where those students are suppose to be. Another crap policy NJ just recently pass was giving free higher education to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS and pushes the policy of sanctuary state that rewards illegal behavior, meanwhile NJ has tens of thousands of legal immigrants who are being punish for doing everything properly. Another obvious issue is to become a citizen your require to be proficient in English so why does NJ send voting ballots in English, Arabic, Spanish, and Chinese? I can go on but those are some shinning examples of terrible policy push by the left that frustrate and annoy legal immigrants and citizens.

Programs I would be fine for the left to promote is
1. Free English learning lessons
2. Free Civics lessons
3. Use the participation of the above to to improve someone chances of gaining citizenship.
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      12-15-2019, 05:47 PM   #55
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Not even close, this has been going on for a while and the left are as guilty and arguably more guilty of it than just about anyone on the planet.
This.

Mr. Trump was just willing to give it back to them as good as he got it.
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      12-15-2019, 08:17 PM   #56
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Just FYI, I skipped to the TLDR
I assume you are referencing my OP, if so,
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      12-15-2019, 08:26 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Australian Bimmer View Post
Hey OP, it is the same in Australia. It seems we have the well educated and affluent inner city lefties on one side verses the more conservative and mainstream right of centre traditionalists on the other. It seems that the battle lines have been drawn and neither side will give an inch. Silly really.
In our boardrooms, our schools and our Universities we acknowledge that diversity is good, but in political debate there seems to be little room for acceptance and even tolerance of contrary views.
Yes, it is a strange thing. It hasn't really come to Canada yet as far as I can see, at least to the same extent, but I do think there is an undercurrent brewing here which if the far left goes too far, I think we are going to see the right get a lot more vocal...and fair enough. What I'd prefer to see is both soften their positions a little and see the merits in each other's arguments, while I lean right, I don't for a moment assume that they do everything right, they don't. There are strengths to both sides, be nice if we could implement just the strengths.

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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Valid points I'll give my prospective so member can understand where I'm coming from.
A. I'm a libertarian in philosophy and would like as much power and influence in the private sector and have the public sector as small as possible (public is not just government it also public companies and unions)
B. Register Republican
C. I did not vote for trump in the primary even when the writting was on the wall I voted for Kasich
D. Overall I believe trump is doing a fair enough job.

But what makes me constantly go to trump defense has been the unreasonable and unfair treatment he has recieved by the media 90+% negative coverage, the opposite since day one (not my president, fake hate crimes, assaulting maga hat individuals) his own party (was an active movement to undermine trump the first year and a half by the gop), and the government itself (illegal surveillance and using low quality info to prosecute him and people in his staff then following illegal court pratices that is resulting in retrails now)

All of that just force people who believe in a fair shack, American core values and rooting for the underdog just to cheer for Trump and dismiss any scummy things he may do.

As for your Rome comparison I don't see our fall any time soon nor are we even remotely close to it since I see this as the american century, if anything we are around the Gracchi Brother period of the Rome Republic.

If a fall does occur I believe Russia is in a much better stance then China as their economy has a much more solid fondation then China.
Well, in fairness to me, I did say I didn't think your potential fall was imminent if you were to read my post, but I did say this division was the first step along a dangerous path, a path which I believe ultimately led to the destruction of Rome. Though everyone has their own theories about what led to that. But wouldn't you agree that it would be smart not to start on down that potential path? To fix it now, knowing what we know about past history?

We disagree on the economics of Russia vs China though. I think China has a far better shot at filling the vacuum than Russia based on their resources, historical desire for power (which is matched by Russia). I honestly don't see Russia minding much about China though - I think they understand that culture pretty well and can make it work in their favour. Assuming they don't fill the void.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      12-15-2019, 09:01 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Yes, it is a strange thing. It hasn't really come to Canada yet as far as I can see, at least to the same extent, but I do think there is an undercurrent brewing here which if the far left goes too far, I think we are going to see the right get a lot more vocal...and fair enough. What I'd prefer to see is both soften their positions a little and see the merits in each other's arguments, while I lean right, I don't for a moment assume that they do everything right, they don't. There are strengths to both sides, be nice if we could implement just the strengths.



Well, in fairness to me, I did say I didn't think your potential fall was imminent if you were to read my post, but I did say this division was the first step along a dangerous path, a path which I believe ultimately led to the destruction of Rome. Though everyone has their own theories about what led to that. But wouldn't you agree that it would be smart not to start on down that potential path? To fix it now, knowing what we know about past history?

We disagree on the economics of Russia vs China though. I think China has a far better shot at filling the vacuum than Russia based on their resources, historical desire for power (which is matched by Russia). I honestly don't see Russia minding much about China though - I think they understand that culture pretty well and can make it work in their favour. Assuming they don't fill the void.
China economy is built on hot money and dependent on Oil. Every conflict since the end of WW1 has been determine by Oil and the foundation of the nation economy, China lacks both and is a glass dragon in my book.
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      12-15-2019, 09:53 PM   #59
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I assume you are referencing my OP, if so,
sheesh just kidding Joe - I always read your stuff! mostly because it's thoughtful, but also because your avatar reminds me of Montreal. I just haven't been in the thread for awhile .... but now that it's the holidays ...

It's time to get blind drunk, shitpost, and create some holiday magic!

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      12-15-2019, 09:55 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
This.

Mr. Trump was just willing to give it back to them as good as he got it.
I agree, Trump is a great counterpuncher!

I even love how he nicknames those corrupt politicians, Nervous Nancy, Crooked Hillary hahahaha

His marketing genius is amazing!
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      12-16-2019, 02:31 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
China economy is built on hot money and dependent on Oil. Every conflict since the end of WW1 has been determine by Oil and the foundation of the nation economy, China lacks both and is a glass dragon in my book.
+1, powerful of a country depends not only on the current economy:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...power-rankings
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      12-16-2019, 10:41 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
sheesh just kidding Joe - I always read your stuff! mostly because it's thoughtful, but also because your avatar reminds me of Montreal. I just haven't been in the thread for awhile .... but now that it's the holidays ...

It's time to get blind drunk, shitpost, and create some holiday magic!

I probably should have put a smiley in my post, but figured you'd understand the jest it was made in.

Please, please do the bolded in the politics or OT section so I can find it - it will be magical if it takes off and will put me in an even better mood for the Christmas season.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      12-16-2019, 11:04 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Not even close, this has been going on for a while and the left are as guilty and arguably more guilty of it than just about anyone on the planet.
No, not what Trump does. All decency is out the window on the Trump and Trump supporter side.
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      12-16-2019, 12:18 PM   #64
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Now is a good time to not be able to hear all these #whippersnappers mouthing off to their elders, right shoei ????
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      12-16-2019, 12:23 PM   #65
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Now is a good time to not be able to hear all these #whippersnappers mouthing off to their elders, right shoei ????
Is shoei that old that he's in the same class as you? I had no idea he was practically geriatric. Thanks for outing him for me Wede!
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      12-16-2019, 12:27 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Not even close, this has been going on for a while and the left are as guilty and arguably more guilty of it than just about anyone on the planet.
No, not what Trump does. All decency is out the window on the Trump and Trump supporter side.
I call malarkey....
here's the poster girl for nothing's off limits win at all costs decency-out-the-window mendacity==>
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