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      09-17-2019, 06:32 PM   #45
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It's funny how everyone defends BMW's interior, yet all you have to do is look in the problem section of the forum to see just how many issues BMW's interiors have.
Completely contradictory statement.
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      09-18-2019, 12:50 AM   #46
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It's funny how everyone defends BMW's interior, yet all you have to do is look in the problem section of the forum to see just how many issues BMW's interiors have.
Completely contradictory statement.
Keep them blinders on fanboy
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      09-18-2019, 01:43 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post

It's funny how everyone defends BMW's interior, yet all you have to do is look in the problem section of the forum to see just how many issues BMW's interiors have.
Completely contradictory statement.
Keep them blinders on fanboy
Can't the same be said for you....? You didn't even have an M2 but yet your bashing it constantly and singing praises of your mighty 1LE like it has no issues. How are you any different than him?
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      09-18-2019, 02:22 PM   #48
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Keep them blinders on fanboy
You already lost the argument. I don't own a BMW. Never have.

Your argument was completely contradictory. You say "funny how everyone defends BMW's interior" and then you immediately point out a thread on the forum where people talk about problems with the interior.

You a funny guy.
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      09-19-2019, 10:39 AM   #49
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      09-19-2019, 02:44 PM   #50
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Usually C&D fudges a few arbitrary scores to award the Porsche a win even when it's slower than its competition so surprising they placed the Cayman 3rd and not even 2nd.
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      09-19-2019, 02:52 PM   #51
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Funny. 15-20 years ago everyone used to accuse them of fudging the scores to give BMW the wins.
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      09-19-2019, 08:11 PM   #52
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Funny. 15-20 years ago everyone used to accuse them of fudging the scores to give BMW the wins.
Well yeah but they were smitten with BMW then. Now they are smitten with Porsche.
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      09-20-2019, 10:18 AM   #53
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They should have included the Camaro ZL1 in that comparo.
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      09-20-2019, 10:21 AM   #54
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It's interesting to note that the M2, which came in last place overall, had the highest scores in 2 out of the 4 categories. Best score for "Vehicle" and best score for "Powertrain."
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      09-20-2019, 01:03 PM   #55
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It's interesting to note that the M2, which came in last place overall, had the highest scores in 2 out of the 4 categories. Best score for "Vehicle" and best score for "Powertrain."
It was 3 points behind the other 3 cars in the uber-subjective "fun to drive" category. Those 3 points would've had the M2C finishing in an overall tie for 2nd. Being fun to drive has been a consistent staple of M2 reviews up to this point.
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      09-20-2019, 01:34 PM   #56
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Such a great thread to read. This goes to show me that we are true car guys at heart. I have always been a Mustang guy and after owning 4 of them I decided to go with the M2. I have always loved the M cars especially the older M3's. I had this very debate for months with myself before deciding on buying the M2. The GT350 and or a GT with PP2 package was on the top of my list. I still feel that some days I wish I got the GT350 but the decision has been made.

On another note, my friend and I had the opportunity to work with the Throttle House boys and my friend's Mustang GT was just featured up against the new Supra.

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      09-21-2019, 09:31 AM   #57
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You know, I've been looking at Supra more closely, and to be honest I would not take the stock car. But a Stage 2 with a bigger turbo making 450 to the wheels would be something I'd consider. Styling is 8/10 in my mind, but it's light, nimble and with well tuned suspension. And once you correct the 330hp mistake under the hood this can be a car with huge potential. B58 from the factory can be a 470HP motor. Keeping in under mid 300s is a crime in my opinion.
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      09-21-2019, 11:42 AM   #58
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It's been proven that the Supra is putting out a lot more HP than the claimed 335. Much closer to 400 hp.
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      09-21-2019, 08:55 PM   #59
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It's interesting to note that the M2, which came in last place overall, had the highest scores in 2 out of the 4 categories. Best score for "Vehicle" and best score for "Powertrain."
The powertrain was the star of the show in my 16' M3 as well, it just fell apart everywhere else.

From stability/traction control algorithms, to rear-end instability, to poor rebound shock damping tuning, to brakes that would vibrate, to squeaks in the cabin.

I had my SS 1LE and M3 together for 3 weeks before my lease turn in on the M3 and there is no doubt on paper they are close, but driving them back to back the M3 feels quite a bit quicker. The feel of the powertrain from the DCT to the motor , it was sublime, but that is where the advantages ended.

I know we are talking M2 here, but the M2 still suffers from a lot that the M3 did, just not so much so and on a shorter wheel base.
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      09-21-2019, 11:40 PM   #60
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For those with extended time in the GT350, did the cabin noise become an issue after a while? Many of my fun drives are 8-12 hours and the M2 is tolerable though the road noise on rough pavement can be challenging at times. I suspect road noise is an issue with the GT350 but resonance from the motor and exhaust is probably fatiguing over a longer haul. Anyone have any input?
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      09-22-2019, 01:42 PM   #61
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For those with extended time in the GT350, did the cabin noise become an issue after a while? Many of my fun drives are 8-12 hours and the M2 is tolerable though the road noise on rough pavement can be challenging at times. I suspect road noise is an issue with the GT350 but resonance from the motor and exhaust is probably fatiguing over a longer haul. Anyone have any input?
This is an issue that I have wondered and worried about regarding the GT350 as well. The review above indicates that one of the negatives about the GT350 is the "always on intensity."
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      09-22-2019, 02:31 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post
The powertrain was the star of the show in my 16' M3 as well, it just fell apart everywhere else.

From stability/traction control algorithms, to rear-end instability, to poor rebound shock damping tuning, to brakes that would vibrate, to squeaks in the cabin.

I had my SS 1LE and M3 together for 3 weeks before my lease turn in on the M3 and there is no doubt on paper they are close, but driving them back to back the M3 feels quite a bit quicker. The feel of the powertrain from the DCT to the motor , it was sublime, but that is where the advantages ended.

I know we are talking M2 here, but the M2 still suffers from a lot that the M3 did, just not so much so and on a shorter wheel base.
BMW really needs to address their biggest deficit: Numb, uninspiring steering feel.
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      09-27-2019, 11:36 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post
The powertrain was the star of the show in my 16' M3 as well, it just fell apart everywhere else.

From stability/traction control algorithms, to rear-end instability, to poor rebound shock damping tuning, to brakes that would vibrate, to squeaks in the cabin.

I had my SS 1LE and M3 together for 3 weeks before my lease turn in on the M3 and there is no doubt on paper they are close, but driving them back to back the M3 feels quite a bit quicker. The feel of the powertrain from the DCT to the motor , it was sublime, but that is where the advantages ended.

I know we are talking M2 here, but the M2 still suffers from a lot that the M3 did, just not so much so and on a shorter wheel base.
BMW really needs to address their biggest deficit: Numb, uninspiring steering feel.
I find it very confusing as to why this is a problem on M cars. Everytime there's a prototype drive of any BMW, there's usually a portion in the article in which they talk about discussing steering with a programmer and the programmer mentions that he can tune it to have feel, but that the GP doesn't want it. Ok, I guess that makes sense on your bread and butter 330i and X3, where you have to cater to the general public, but on an M car, why do they isolate the car from the road in regards to steering? I doubt many M-owners are writing in their surveys "we want less steering feel!"

We know BMW has the technology and fine-tuning to fix their steering, and even they get upset with the constant criticism of their steering (when the G20 was launched, one of the BMW higher up's complained about consumers complaining about modern BMWs). Its getting really embarrassing to see that even almost a decade later, BMW is still failing in the steering department. Even cars like the Mazda 3 have more feedback and have tuned their EPS fairly well. Granted they aren't E46 levels of feel, but they aren't completely devoid of feel, and this is on a ~$20k compact car!

Luckily cars like the M2 impress in many other areas, making the steering more "forgivable," but its really sad seeing the stark contrast of BMW having great steering feel to now having some of the worst.
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      09-27-2019, 03:00 PM   #64
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I find it very confusing as to why this is a problem on M cars. Everytime there's a prototype drive of any BMW, there's usually a portion in the article in which they talk about discussing steering with a programmer and the programmer mentions that he can tune it to have feel, but that the GP doesn't want it. Ok, I guess that makes sense on your bread and butter 330i and X3, where you have to cater to the general public, but on an M car, why do they isolate the car from the road in regards to steering? I doubt many M-owners are writing in their surveys "we want less steering feel!"

We know BMW has the technology and fine-tuning to fix their steering, and even they get upset with the constant criticism of their steering (when the G20 was launched, one of the BMW higher up's complained about consumers complaining about modern BMWs). Its getting really embarrassing to see that even almost a decade later, BMW is still failing in the steering department. Even cars like the Mazda 3 have more feedback and have tuned their EPS fairly well. Granted they aren't E46 levels of feel, but they aren't completely devoid of feel, and this is on a ~$20k compact car!

Luckily cars like the M2 impress in many other areas, making the steering more "forgivable," but its really sad seeing the stark contrast of BMW having great steering feel to now having some of the worst.
I've only owned my M2 comp for a month, but I can say that the ONLY time i'm actually annoyed by the lack of steering feel is when I drive it back to back with my 350Z (which for all its faults has a very nice hydraulic steering setup.)

If i'm just jumping in the M2c the steering feels fine, sharp accurate and with a fair amount of feel. If I then jump in the Z, i'll notice that it has way more fidelity and a bit more natural weighting. But I only notice if it's an immediate comparison, if i drive the two cars on different days the M2 steering feels great.


I kind of wonder if that's why Car and Driver heaps praise on the M2c when its on its own, but then pans the car when they're comparing it directly to others.

Also interesting that they have the weight listed as under 3600lbs. I'd figured that 3600lb figure was an estimate, wheras i'm pretty sure car and driver actually weighs their vehicles on a scale.
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      09-27-2019, 05:40 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
I find it very confusing as to why this is a problem on M cars. Everytime there's a prototype drive of any BMW, there's usually a portion in the article in which they talk about discussing steering with a programmer and the programmer mentions that he can tune it to have feel, but that the GP doesn't want it. Ok, I guess that makes sense on your bread and butter 330i and X3, where you have to cater to the general public, but on an M car, why do they isolate the car from the road in regards to steering? I doubt many M-owners are writing in their surveys "we want less steering feel!"

We know BMW has the technology and fine-tuning to fix their steering, and even they get upset with the constant criticism of their steering (when the G20 was launched, one of the BMW higher up's complained about consumers complaining about modern BMWs). Its getting really embarrassing to see that even almost a decade later, BMW is still failing in the steering department. Even cars like the Mazda 3 have more feedback and have tuned their EPS fairly well. Granted they aren't E46 levels of feel, but they aren't completely devoid of feel, and this is on a ~$20k compact car!

Luckily cars like the M2 impress in many other areas, making the steering more "forgivable," but its really sad seeing the stark contrast of BMW having great steering feel to now having some of the worst.
I've only owned my M2 comp for a month, but I can say that the ONLY time i'm actually annoyed by the lack of steering feel is when I drive it back to back with my 350Z (which for all its faults has a very nice hydraulic steering setup.)

If i'm just jumping in the M2c the steering feels fine, sharp accurate and with a fair amount of feel. If I then jump in the Z, i'll notice that it has way more fidelity and a bit more natural weighting. But I only notice if it's an immediate comparison, if i drive the two cars on different days the M2 steering feels great.


I kind of wonder if that's why Car and Driver heaps praise on the M2c when its on its own, but then pans the car when they're comparing it directly to others.

Also interesting that they have the weight listed as under 3600lbs. I'd figured that 3600lb figure was an estimate, wheras i'm pretty sure car and driver actually weighs their vehicles on a scale.
The steering complaints are still present even in normal instrument tests and reviews, but in the presence of the GT350, Cayman, and Supra in the latest C/D comparo, all of which have more steering feel, it makes the steering even more obvious in what its lacking on the M2. Like you said, turn in is good, the steering is direct and sharp, it just lacks that great sense of tactile feedback that BMWs use to be known for.

Also like you, I can live with it, it isn't a deal breaker, as the M2 succeeds in so many other areas, but it just makes me sad to see as a long time BMW owner for BMW to be this oblivious to their M market and the constant criticism that has persisted of BMW's steering over the last decade and even have numerous other brands surpass them and figure how to tune EPS properly.
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