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      02-17-2020, 08:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Keep telling yourself that, I know it's hard having an engine which sounds like a lawn mower so you can say you have 400hp.

But this brings up a good point. There is NO end all be all BMW engine. Which is why I will be back in a glorious American V8 in 2021. S55 can suck it. BMW engines in general either make good power or torque, but they sound like shit and spin crank hubs. OR they make less power but sound half way decent. Pretty sure my next car will be a cammed LT1. Only way to have both for reasonable price. There is having 500hp, and then there is using 500hp. You know, for those of us who can actually drive

Here's some videos for perspective.





With the M2C being a WHOPPING 2s faster.... wow. But the 1Le and the GT350 are 6s and 10s faster. Respect.

Oh, and even a $40k Mustang wipes the floor with your M2C.



So like I said, I know it's hard. But hang in there. It will be ok. Eventually.
Addressing specifically track use, putting aside your aimless rant about sound and crank hubs. Over one lap sure an N55 can keep up with the detuned S55 in the M2C. Do 5 laps at reasonable ambient temps and the N55 will start to heat soak and lose power. The N55 needs additional cooling mods for any serious track work. The S55's cooling and power ceiling are on another level entirely, an S55 will happily pound around a circuit all day.

As for laptimes vs Camaro's, GT350's etc. they are certainly faster cars. However take away their tire advantage and the gap narrows significantly. The M2C is massively under tired from the factory, which is part of what makes it so fun.

Oh and yes there is a be all and end all BMW engine.. its called the S85.
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      02-17-2020, 08:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by newcar55 View Post
My friend, you are about to get crucified for this statement.
Haha. You called it! It was totally a typo... I meant S58.
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      02-17-2020, 09:07 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Keep telling yourself that, I know it's hard having an engine which sounds like a lawn mower so you can say you have 400hp.

But this brings up a good point. There is NO end all be all BMW engine. Which is why I will be back in a glorious American V8 in 2021. S55 can suck it. BMW engines in general either make good power or torque, but they sound like shit and spin crank hubs. OR they make less power but sound half way decent. Pretty sure my next car will be a cammed LT1. Only way to have both for reasonable price. There is having 500hp, and then there is using 500hp. You know, for those of us who can actually drive

Here's some videos for perspective.


With the M2C being a WHOPPING 2s faster.... wow. But the 1Le and the GT350 are 6s and 10s faster. Respect.

Oh, and even a $40k Mustang wipes the floor with your M2C.


So like I said, I know it's hard. But hang in there. It will be ok. Eventually.
Jesus christ man. That sounds exhausting. I can't imagine seeing the world as nothing more than a constant series of dick measuring contests.
How about everyone just drives what they like?

A Mustang PP2 is cheaper, faster and better sounding than my M2C. It's also bigger (outside) smaller (inside) less refined and has suspension geometry that doesn't give it much (if any) self steer when the thing gets sideways. Plusses and minuses. Nobody is an idiot for choosing either car.
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      02-18-2020, 12:50 AM   #26
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My rant is that in 2020 getting 400hp from a turbo 6 is not really a feat of engineering anymore. A 2011 Mustang beat that number already. Sure, they have their advantages, but I for one am expecting more from the "ultimate driving machine".

Unless we just start calling it the overhyped thus overpriced ultimate comfort machine.
Rant over.
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      02-18-2020, 02:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
My rant is that in 2020 getting 400hp from a turbo 6 is not really a feat of engineering anymore.
Entirely reasonable, and i totally agree.

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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
A 2011 Mustang beat that number already.
Well...not with a 3.0L Turbo 6. It made 400 hp in 2011 with a 5.0L V8, just like BMW did ten years earlier.

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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Sure, they have their advantages, but I for one am expecting more from the "ultimate driving machine".

Unless we just start calling it the overhyped thus overpriced ultimate comfort machine.
Rant over.
That's not an unfair complaint, I think "ultimate driving machine" is overselling things a bit.

But it's marketing schlock, just like how not a single person in the 90's actually loved anything a Toyota did for them.

Anyway, it sounds like your point mostly boils down to "Don't be a fucking fanboy" which is something i'd agree with. But understand that an M2 Competition, for some people who do not live their lives under the exact same circumstances as you and who may have different wants and needs from a vehicle, really, really like that car. And they're not dumb for doing so, that's not a dumb/bad choice that they're making. That 20K premium over a mustang GT goes to real, tangible things. They may not be things that make the car faster, but if speed to price ratio is the only thing that matters, we're all idiots for not riding liter bikes 100 percent of the time.
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      02-18-2020, 03:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Moflow View Post
Entirely reasonable, and i totally agree.



Well...not with a 3.0L Turbo 6. It made 400 hp in 2011 with a 5.0L V8, just like BMW did ten years earlier.



That's not an unfair complaint, I think "ultimate driving machine" is overselling things a bit.

But it's marketing schlock, just like how not a single person in the 90's actually loved anything a Toyota did for them.

Anyway, it sounds like your point mostly boils down to "Don't be a fucking fanboy" which is something i'd agree with. But understand that an M2 Competition, for some people who do not live their lives under the exact same circumstances as you and who may have different wants and needs from a vehicle, really, really like that car. And they're not dumb for doing so, that's not a dumb/bad choice that they're making. That 20K premium over a mustang GT goes to real, tangible things. They may not be things that make the car faster, but if speed to price ratio is the only thing that matters, we're all idiots for not riding liter bikes 100 percent of the time.
Fair points.

I'm not saying that M2 or M2C are stupid choices. For my use case there are better options, and that's a personal choice. What I just don't understand is why so many "fan boys" on here act like the S55 is "superior" than any other motor, particularly ones with more cylinders or less turbos. The S in S55 doesn't stand for Special. It is better that older BMW motors, but not as good as some other engines out that. And not as good as next gen BMW motors either.
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      02-18-2020, 08:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
My rant is that in 2020 getting 400hp from a turbo 6 is not really a feat of engineering anymore. A 2011 Mustang beat that number already. Sure, they have their advantages, but I for one am expecting more from the "ultimate driving machine".

Unless we just start calling it the overhyped thus overpriced ultimate comfort machine.
Rant over.
The S55 in the M2C is detuned to 400HP because of its position in the lineup. Have you ever looked at a Dyno graph? The M3 CS has an identical engine and puts out 453HP. The M4 GTS includes water injection and hits 490. Getting that power, reliably with bullet proof cooling is a feat of engineering. That's what you pay for in a BMW - engineering. The fact you keep comparing to cooking Mustang is laughable, and posting laps on Cup 2's doesn't support your narrative at all.
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      02-18-2020, 09:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The S55 in the M2C is detuned to 400HP because of its position in the lineup. Have you ever looked at a Dyno graph? The M3 CS has an identical engine and puts out 453HP. The M4 GTS includes water injection and hits 490. Getting that power, reliably with bullet proof cooling is a feat of engineering. That's what you pay for in a BMW - engineering. The fact you keep comparing to cooking Mustang is laughable, and posting laps on Cup 2's doesn't support your narrative at all.
Than look at the Camaro 1LE laps. This are on super car 3s which are 220 thread wear. Still way faster than M2C. Narrative.

Also both Camaro and Mustang are underrated as proved by many dyno runs. Nearly 500 at the crank is the new standard for American V8s. Why is that so hard for BMW??

I know, I know. Emissions. But do I want to pay more for better emissions? Hell no. And apparently I don't have to!

EDIT: Also, M2 CS starts at a RIDICULOUS $83k. Really?

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      02-18-2020, 11:46 AM   #31
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Yes, but the M2C is only 59k minus discounts. A mustang may get lower track times but on a twisty mountain switchback road it won't be fun.
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      02-18-2020, 12:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Than look at the Camaro 1LE laps. This are on super car 3s which are 220 thread wear. Still way faster than M2C. Narrative.

Also both Camaro and Mustang are underrated as proved by many dyno runs. Nearly 500 at the crank is the new standard for American V8s. Why is that so hard for BMW??

I know, I know. Emissions. But do I want to pay more for better emissions? Hell no. And apparently I don't have to!

EDIT: Also, M2 CS starts at a RIDICULOUS $83k. Really?
The 1LE runs on 305 section tires, not doubting its a quicker car than the M2C. I've driven with them on track many times when I had my M3. However you are not comparing apples to apples vs an M2C on 245/265 PSS.

Sure a Mustang has more horsepower.. but take a look at the suspension components (basic stamped steel items), panel gaps, infotainment, interior quality.. not even factoring weight, size, practicality. I've driven basically every flavor of current mustang, including the GT350. The 350 is a riot no doubt, but once you remove the engine your still driving a huge, heavy, highly impractical car with horrid dealership experience.

Your only criteria for a car seems to be whether it has a V8 in it and how much it costs. If that's the case go buy whatever flavor of muscle car you like, however the fact you can't comprehend factors outside of that is a reflection on you not BMW. I think your posting on the wrong forum honestly..
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      02-18-2020, 01:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The 1LE runs on 305 section tires, not doubting its a quicker car than the M2C. I've driven with them on track many times when I had my M3. However you are not comparing apples to apples vs an M2C on 245/265 PSS.
So 1LE is 285 front, 305 rear. Manuafacturer's choice, so I don't see this as a real disadvantage for the M2C. In the end BMW decided what rubber should be on, knowing what the competitors pack. Also, it's hard enough for the M2 to break traction of those 265s in many driving scenarios in warm weather. Very much by design. The 1LE and the Mustang can both light the rears up at will through 3rd gear. Also by design. So you could also make the argument that those cars are under-tired, since they both put down about 412hp to the wheels. Well more than the M2C advertises at the crank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Sure a Mustang has more horsepower.. but take a look at the suspension components (basic stamped steel items), panel gaps, infotainment, interior quality.. not even factoring weight, size, practicality. I've driven basically every flavor of current mustang, including the GT350. The 350 is a riot no doubt, but once you remove the engine your still driving a huge, heavy, highly impractical car with horrid dealership experience.
Yes, larger physically, slightly heavier, the 1LE is 3685lbs to be clear, and the Mustang is over 3700, but in the end they move better than the lighter BMW. So mute point at best, and a complement to chassis tuning of Ford and Chevy at stalemate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Your only criteria for a car seems to be whether it has a V8 in it and how much it costs. If that's the case go buy whatever flavor of muscle car you like, however the fact you can't comprehend factors outside of that is a reflection on you not BMW. I think your posting on the wrong forum honestly..
This is where you're 100% right. You can not convince me that I-Drive (which I really like and appreciate by the way) and a few pieces of carbon fiber along with tri-color stitching is worth $20k premium. So it is a testament to me not believing that a certain logo on the hood is worth $15k and the interior is worth the other $5k. It took me 6 months of ownership to notice the dash piece on the passenger side is Carbon Fiber. And when i did I thought "huh, would be nice if it had extra 20hp instead."

For me it's performance, performance, performance and all the other bullshit comes last.

So you're right, I'm venting to the wrong crowd. I don't think I'm BMW's target market since I care about performance/value preposition above creature comforts.
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      02-18-2020, 02:11 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
So 1LE is 285 front, 305 rear. Manuafacturer's choice, so I don't see this as a real disadvantage for the M2C. In the end BMW decided what rubber should be on, knowing what the competitors pack. Also, it's hard enough for the M2 to break traction of those 265s in many driving scenarios...
Focusing on the bold; probably because your M2 only makes 350/400 to the tire, whereas the M2C makes 400/440 to the tire. I can easily get the Comp to spin in 3rd. I can't imagine how tiring it is being such a narcissistic hard ass.
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      02-18-2020, 02:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Focusing on the bold; probably because your M2 only makes 350/400 to the tire, whereas the M2C makes 400/440 to the tire. I can easily get the Comp to spin in 3rd. I can't imagine how tiring it is being such a narcissistic hard ass.
And now we know your tampon needs changing

Sorry bro, if you know anything about cars you know that 10% hp increase you can bareley feel. And yes, even my little N55 can break rear wheels loose in 3rd when it's cold out.

Also you don't make 400 to the tire. Just FYI. But I would be wrong, so let's see YOUR dyno results before I jump to conclusions.
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      02-18-2020, 02:24 PM   #36
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And now we know your tampon needs changing

Sorry bro, if you know anything about cars you know that 10% hp increase you can bareley feel. And yes, even my little N55 can break rear wheels loose in 3rd when it's cold out.
Nothing says immaturity like insults. Last I checked, 350 + 35 doesn't equal 400... Regardless, once you're back here in the states, enjoy your Camaro or Mustang. We surely won't miss you.

EDIT: If you can't feel a 50whp increase in power between the OG and the Comp, what makes you think you'll be able to feel the whopping extra 12whp that the Camaro and Mustang make over the Comp...? Honest question here.
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      02-18-2020, 02:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
I can't imagine how tiring it is being such a narcissistic hard ass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Nothing says immaturity like insults.
Wait what? Lol, I think you just gave up your seat on on the high horse of morality right about there

You crack me up! This is great, keep 'em coming!
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      02-18-2020, 02:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post

EDIT: If you can't feel a 50whp increase in power between the OG and the Comp, what makes you think you'll be able to feel the whopping extra 12whp that the Camaro and Mustang make over the Comp...? Honest question here.
Onto your second within minutes idiocracy, 405-365 is not 50, it's 40. And its not rear wheel HP, it's crank HP. Facts. Let's see how else you can embarace yourself tonight.
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      02-18-2020, 03:00 PM   #39
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Onto your second within minutes idiocracy, 405-365 is not 50, it's 40. And its not rear wheel HP, it's crank HP. Facts. Let's see how else you can embarace yourself tonight.
Grammar. Calling you for what you are, is not quite the same as passive aggressive profile snooping insults, or telling someone to change their tampon. I digress.

I've worked in plenty of shops, and briefly on a GTR race team, to know a thing or 2 about HP. I was talking wheel horsepower there bud. Comp shows massive gains over the OG across the board, and almost 50 peak. Tell me again how the Comp is ONLY 10% more, or how the V8 counterparts (with their 12-15 more hp) would "wipe the floor" with the Comp...

I have nothing else for you Mr Stig. You're clearly stubborn, and have already made your mind up, enjoy the Camaro or Mustang. This whole thread is way off topic. Last thing I'm replying to you.

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      02-18-2020, 03:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Grammar. Calling you for what you are, is not quite the same as passive aggressive profile snooping insults, or telling someone to change their tampon. I digress.

I've worked in plenty of shops, and briefly on a GTR race team, to know a thing or 2 about HP. I was talking wheel horsepower there bud. Comp shows massive gains over the OG across the board, and almost 50 peak. Tell me again how the Comp is ONLY 10% more, or how the V8 counterparts (with their 12-15 more hp) would "wipe the floor" with the Comp...

I have nothing else for you Mr Stig. You're clearly stubborn, and have already made your mind up, enjoy the Camaro or Mustang. This whole thread is way off topic. Last thing I'm replying to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Grammar. Calling you for what you are, is not quite the same as passive aggressive profile snooping insults, or telling someone to change their tampon. I digress.
You do, and again you're wrong. Grammar is sentence structure and proper conjugation as well as tense selection. Choosing a word to describe the emotions I evoke in you is something else. Though I'm glad we're bonding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
I've worked in plenty of shops, and briefly on a GTR race team, to know a thing or 2 about HP. I was talking wheel horsepower there bud. Comp shows massive gains over the OG across the board, and almost 50 peak. Tell me again how the Comp is ONLY 10% more, or how the V8 counterparts (with their 12-15 more hp) would "wipe the floor" with the Comp...
That's actually a 44 wheel HP gain at peak, which is a hair less than the 10% I stipulated before. But Come On, we're having fun here, no? I do enjoy your posts!

[/QUOTE]
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      02-18-2020, 03:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Grammar. Calling you for what you are, is not quite the same as passive aggressive profile snooping insults, or telling someone to change their tampon. I digress.
You do, and again you're wrong. Grammar is sentence structure and proper conjugation as well as tense selection. Choosing a word to describe the emotions I evoke in you is something else. Though I'm glad we're bonding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
I've worked in plenty of shops, and briefly on a GTR race team, to know a thing or 2 about HP. I was talking wheel horsepower there bud. Comp shows massive gains over the OG across the board, and almost 50 peak. Tell me again how the Comp is ONLY 10% more, or how the V8 counterparts (with their 12-15 more hp) would "wipe the floor" with the Comp...
That's actually a 44 wheel HP gain at peak, which is a hair more than 10% I stipulated before (10% of 405 crank). But Come On, we're having fun here, no? I do enjoy your posts!

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      02-18-2020, 04:12 PM   #42
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Yes, larger physically, slightly heavier, the 1LE is 3685lbs to be clear, and the Mustang is over 3700, but in the end they move better than the lighter BMW. So mute point at best, and a complement to chassis tuning of Ford and Chevy at stalemate.
I think your point about the relative tire sizes is a good one, you can't compare a modified car to a stock one, so the apples to apples comparison is stock tire size to stock tire size.

That said, it's about more than just weight. 100-200lbs is an amount that can be felt, but it's certainly not a huge difference maker when we're talking 3500+ lb vehicles. The bigger difference in handling has to do with the dimensions, wheelbase and suspension tuning. The BMW M2 simply feels more eager to change directions. But handling is subjective. I still however, contend that having no self steer (the steering wheel's tendency to "find" the right countersteer point on its own during a slide) is the biggest thing that gives me pause about the Mustang's handling. I have no concerns about the Camaro's handling. That car's chassis is properly good.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
This is where you're 100% right. You can not convince me that I-Drive (which I really like and appreciate by the way) and a few pieces of carbon fiber along with tri-color stitching is worth $20k premium. So it is a testament to me not believing that a certain logo on the hood is worth $15k and the interior is worth the other $5k. It took me 6 months of ownership to notice the dash piece on the passenger side is Carbon Fiber. And when i did I thought "huh, would be nice if it had extra 20hp instead."

For me it's performance, performance, performance and all the other bullshit comes last.

So you're right, I'm venting to the wrong crowd. I don't think I'm BMW's target market since I care about performance/value preposition above creature comforts.
It's not just the comfort, in fact the comfort stuff is pretty far down on my list. I live in the city, i parallel park my car frequently and the roads around here are very narrow, featuring two way traffic on backroads with only enough space to fit one vehicle at a time (lots of pulling into drive ways between parked cars to let someone pass coming the opposite way.)

If the Mustang/Camaro had interiors that were bigger than the BMW 2-series I could maybe deal with their extra size. But as is....I just can't man. It's like they designed the car to be as big as possible on the outside, while making as poor use of those massive exterior dimensions as possible. Four adults legitimately fit in our cars. They do not in the Mustang/Camaro. And the BMW is dealing with an engine that's six cylinders long, not four (V8 = 4cylinders length wise.)

Again, totally fair if these are not things you care about. But it's not just "badge snobbery and comfort" that's demanding the price premium. It's caring that the engineers took their time to play tetris correctly when designing the car. It's looking over my shoulder before changing lanes on the highway and thinking "I'm glad i can see that car in my blind spot over there instead of just the inside of my C-pillar." And yes, some of it is having an infotainment screen that isn't angled down in such a way that makes it hard to read under any and all conditions. It's just general care and thoughtfulness that went into designing the car, rather than a "good enough" attitude.

I genuinely hope you enjoy your V8 when you head back stateside. You are more hardcore than I am in what you value in a daily driver and I respect that. But it is much more than simple brand snobbery that drives sales of these cars for many of us.
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      02-19-2020, 06:38 AM   #43
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Probably an outlier in this group, but I for one do not care for HP or lap times. Between the two, I look for the one that is most engaging and fun to drive.

I do not intend to take my car to the track and most of the time, I'm driving it very sensibly. And yet, I still would choose the M2C because it brings me the most fun.
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      02-19-2020, 11:28 AM   #44
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I think this whole debate just proves more than anything that cars are an emotional purchase more than anything. You can try and talk about how you'd rather have 50 more hp instead of carbon fiber trim, or that the Mustang can beat the M2C around the track. But at the end of the day are you beating an M2C around the track in YOUR Mustang? If you arent then why even bring up that argument?

Cars are just about how they speak to you. My track car is a Honda S2000. its 2800lbs and only 245hp at the crank. 0-60 is 5.3 seconds if i'm REALLY good about it, which i'm not most of the time. There are plenty of cars faster around the track than that car. Remember the S2000 was a 45,000$ car when it was brand new. In todays standards thats the equivalent to a 70,000$ car. Can you imagine paying 70k for an S2000 when cars like the C8 Corvette or the Supra can be had for cheaper? However there will be some people who would. Cars speak to us on an emotional level. For me big american V8's sound great...but thats about it. Sure i'd love to own a Mustang GT one day. But its literally just for straight line speed. The car is too big for me, the interior too cheap, and doesnt feel as nimble as my S2000 even at twice the power.

End of the day we all like what we like. Whether or not you can justify it, doesnt really matter. As long as we can justify it for ourselves and enjoy what we have...whats wrong with that?
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