[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Ok, I am going to extend this DCT topic a bit . . .
WHY is BMW bagging the DCT?
Is ZF8 basically DCT automatic mode . . . eliminating manual mode option (shifter/paddle shifting options)?
///AVM

For some suggestions, look for example here, here and here (2017). That was then.

F90 M5 was the pioneer: no M-DCT (see for example here).

Forthcoming G80 M3 and G82 M4: no M-DCT anymore (see for example here).

Feel free to connect the dots for the 2023 G87 M2.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Artemis

For some suggestions, look for example here, here and here (2017). That was then.

F90 M5 was the pioneer: no M-DCT (see for example here).

Forthcoming G80 M3 and G82 M4: no M-DCT anymore (see for example here).

Feel free to connect the dots for the 2023 G87 M2.

WHY is BMW discontinuing?

[AUSf22]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Getting back to BMW's plan to discontinue DCT . . . this really pisses me off.

I enjoy DCT manual mode for the engagement and performance advantages.

On the other hand . . . I must admit, I have explored driving in automatic mode (Sport and Sport Plus), and they are really quite impressive.

I am assuming that ZF8 equates to driving in DCT automatic mode with Comfort, Sport and Sport Plus options? If that is the case, I am more willing to go the ZF8 route than back to a MT.

Now, before I start setting my mind to fact that the G87 M2/M2C will not have DCT, is there an official statement from BMW that is definitive?

Artemis, your reference does suggest DCT is on its way out, but it does not state definitively whether this will be the case with the G87.

///AVM

AVM I believe the DCT is getting phased out unfortunately.

Even the new M8 and G8X M3/4 comes with the ZF. Makes little sense for them just to offer a DCT for the G87 M2 and not the older siblings

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

WHY is BMW discontinuing?

Probably because ZF8 automatic transmission is cheaper than DCT to manufacture.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Ok, I am going to extend this DCT topic a bit . . .

WHY is BMW bagging the DCT?

Is ZF8 basically DCT automatic mode . . . eliminating manual mode option (shifter/paddle shifting options)?

///AVM

I think ive seen ppl say the zf8 is better for handling high torque applications than dct

But i think its just cutting corners, you see all the supercars have dct and they have high #s as any other

But thw zf8 lets you do manual paddles,

I think M cars should not have automatic gearbox eww

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

. . . But the zf8 lets you do manual paddles . . .

GI4

If ZF8 allows you to use paddles, then what is the difference between that and DCT?

DCT allows you to manually shift with paddles or shifter . . . I personally never use the paddles, rather, always the shifter. Residual MT fanboy in me.

Now I am confused about what the ZF8 really entails? I was under the impression is was basically DCT automatic mode only?

///AVM

[Davil]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

If ZF8 allows you to use paddles, then what is the difference between that and DCT?

Torque converter versus dual clutch.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Davil

Torque converter versus dual clutch.

So, if you never told me my car had DCT vs ZF8, would I ever know?

If you can paddle shift with ZF8, is there any reason why you cannot use shifter to shift?

Does ZF8 have manual mode, like DCT? Don't understand how you could otherwise use paddles?

Obviously my technical knowledge when it comes to ZF8 is, well, zero.

///AVM

[arciga18]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

So, if you never told me my car had DCT vs ZF8, would I ever know?

If you can paddle shift with ZF8, is there any reason why you cannot use shifter to shift?

Does ZF8 have manual mode, like DCT? Don't understand how you could otherwise use paddles?

Obviously my technical knowledge when it comes to ZF8 is, well, zero.

///AVM

My understanding is there will be paddles that switch pretty gears darn fast. Probably faster than dct .


I think you will lose the roll backwards with the zF8 and no longer have to engage the parking brake .

You everyday driver (myself included) will call it the same thing at its core.... mainly because I can't explain the technical differences .

[Davil]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

So, if you never told me my car had DCT vs ZF8, would I ever know?

If you can paddle shift with ZF8, is there any reason why you cannot use shifter to shift?

Does ZF8 have manual mode, like DCT? Don't understand how you could otherwise use paddles?

Obviously my technical knowledge when it comes to ZF8 is, well, zero.

///AVM

A DCT box is an automated manual gearbox (it actually has clutches) and will shift faster than an automatic slush box with paddles.

[medphysdave]

The current gripe with auto vs DCT is the speed of shifts. The auto box is old tech, but seems to be garnering more attention for performance applications. I'm certain the shift speed will get figured out. They are very reliable with recommended maintenance. My current car has an auto and the paddle shifting leaves a bit to be desired, but it's not bad.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Ok, I am going to extend this DCT topic a bit . . .
WHY is BMW bagging the DCT?
Is ZF8 basically DCT automatic mode . . . eliminating manual mode option (shifter/paddle shifting options)?
///AVM

Excerpt from one of the referenced articles of 2017 in my earlier post:

"According to Peter Quintus, Vice President for Sales and Marketing at BMW M, who recently spoke with Drive, the dual-clutch transmission could be gone within a couple of years. We all know manuals are slowly dying, with the next-gen M3/M4 possibly not coming with a manual. However, the dual-clutch death would be surprising, as it’s been considered the enthusiast’s choice if a manual wasn’t available. However, the benefits of dual-clutch transmissions have become virtual non-existent with the advancement of standard automatics.
Typically, dual-clutch autos were lighter and shifted far faster than the standard torque converter auto but that just isn’t the case anymore. Modern automatics, especially the famous ZF eight-speed, can shift every bit as fast as dual-clutch autos and, in the case of the ZF, actually even lighter. Plus, it’s far cheaper to use a torque-converter auto and let’s not think that cost doesn’t factor in.
Another reason is power. Manual transmissions and dual-clutch autos have difficulty handling extremely torquey engines which, with turbochargers taking over, are becoming more and more common. According to Quintus, BMW M can develop manual transmissions to handle the torque but the extra strengthening makes them heavier than an automatic and the shift quality becomes quite poor. So it actually ends up doing more harm than good."

[///AVM]

In addition to the feedback provided, I went online and read a few articles about the ZF8. The articles echoed in large part what has been shared thus far in this thread, and it is clear ZF8 is the future of BMW transmissions, if not the current.

Proponents indicate the ZF8 is lighter, faster, more fuel efficient, more capable, and offers more diverse application over DCT/MT . . . if taken at face value, the ZF8 is simply ‘better.’

Initially, my impression of ZF8 was that it was purely an automatic transmission, akin to driving in DCT automatic mode. However, given feedback that paddle shifting it still possible with ZF8, a couple questions remain on my part:

1. If the ZF8 is capable of paddle shifts, does it retain capability for shifter shifts? With DCT, paddle and shifter shifting are interchangeable, so it seems if paddle shifts are possible with ZF8, shifter shifts should also be available?

2. What I am getting at above is ‘manual mode.’ Again, if paddle shifting is possible with ZF8, does applying the paddles automatically move the transmission into ‘manual mode,’ as occurs with DCT? Otherwise, how does ZF8 know if you want to manually shift (e.g., via paddles or shifter) versus shifting automatically for the driver?

3. Overall, as I inquired previously, is the ZF8 set up in a manner that would make it indistinguishable from DCT if the driver did not otherwise know what transmission was present?

///AVM

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

In addition to the feedback provided, I went online and read a few articles about the ZF8. The articles echoed in large part what has been shared thus far in this thread, and it is clear ZF8 is the future of BMW transmissions, if not the current.

Proponents indicate the ZF8 is lighter, faster, more fuel efficient, more capable, and offers more diverse application over DCT/MT . . . if taken at face value, the ZF8 is simply ‘better.’

Initially, my impression of ZF8 was that it was purely an automatic transmission, akin to driving in DCT automatic mode. However, given feedback that paddle shifting it still possible with ZF8, a couple questions remain on my part:

1. If the ZF8 is capable of paddle shifts, does it retain capability for shifter shifts? With DCT, paddle and shifter shifting are interchangeable, so it seems if paddle shifts are possible with ZF8, shifter shifts should also be available?

2. What I am getting at above is ‘manual mode.’ Again, if paddle shifting is possible with ZF8, does applying the paddles automatically move the transmission into ‘manual mode,’ as occurs with DCT? Otherwise, how does ZF8 know if you want to manually shift (e.g., via paddles or shifter) versus shifting automatically for the driver?

3. Overall, as I inquired previously, is the ZF8 set up in a manner that would make it indistinguishable from DCT if the driver did not otherwise know what transmission was present?

///AVM

I've got a ZF8 in my car. The paddle shifting behavior changes with drive mode. My car has Drive, Sport, Drive Dynamic, and Dynamic Sport. In the transmission menu I can set it to where the paddles will have no impact on drive mode, and are only functional in Sport. I can change it to where the paddles will up shift and downshift in Drive, but will return to full auto control a few seconds after no paddle input is detected. Sport is full manually but will take control of you slow down like coming to a stop light while in too high a gear. It will not switch gears at high rpm and will let you smack into the Rev limiter. Dynamic impacts shift speed and a host of other parameters like throttle response, etc

My car is heavy. Leaving it in auto control seems to start in 2nd, manual mode makes the care feel much lighter from a stop because you can get into first gear. It shifts quickly in manual mode, but not quickly enough. In auto mode it shifts very rapidly and timed well if launching from a stop. It controls hard acceleration very well, but low speed stuff is a bit slow. This may be programming for the style car. This is a luxury grand touring car and I suspect many would be unhappy with quick jerky shifts at low speed.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

. . . but will return to full auto control a few seconds after no paddle input is detected. . . full manually but will take control of you slow down like coming to a stop light while in too high a gear. It will not switch gears at high rpm and will let you smack into the Rev limiter. . . it shifts quickly in manual mode, but not quickly enough. In auto mode it shifts very rapidly and timed well if launching from a stop. It controls hard acceleration very well, but low speed stuff is a bit slow . . .

Thank you Dave

So, what you describe is a lot like DCT. . . Can move into manual mode by flipping a paddle. Controls downshifts according to RPM if you do not. Does not control up-shifts until you bounce off red line.

A bit different than DCT, you describe sluggish paddle shifts when in manual mode, but automatic mode shifts demonstrate ample speed.

Overall, I think DCT in automatic Sport or Sport Plus modes is quite engaging with the M2C, and I suspect ZR8 will perform similarly?

Two things still not clear to me. . . can you put ZR8 in manual mode (e.g., so that computer does not take over after a few seconds by putting it back into automatic mode? Can you utilize the shifter instead of the paddles?

///AVM

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Thank you Dave

So, what you describe is a lot like DCT. . . Can move into manual mode by flipping a paddle. Controls downshifts according to RPM if you do not. Does not control up-shifts until you bounce off red line.

A bit different than DCT, you describe sluggish paddle shifts when in manual mode, but automatic mode shifts demonstrate ample speed.

Overall, I think DCT in automatic Sport or Sport Plus modes is quite engaging with the M2C, and I suspect ZR8 will perform similarly?

Two things still not clear to me. . . can you put ZR8 in manual mode (e.g., so that computer does not take over after a few seconds by putting it back into automatic mode? Can you utilize the shifter instead of the paddles?

///AVM

Yes, in sport mode, as soon as you initiate the paddles it stays in manual mode until you move the shifter out of sport mode.

Yes, you can shift with the gear selector with forward and back inputs.


I believe this auto transmission is plenty capable of quick shifting. My car doesn't have the programming to allow more aggressive shifting all the time. I can see how folks would like an agressively (sport tuned) auto. It would be fun most of the time. I think the MT allows the user to fix some of the short comings of the transmission programming at the expense of shifting quickness.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Yes, in sport mode, as soon as you initiate the paddles it stays in manual mode until you move the shifter out of sport mode. Yes, you can shift with the gear selector with forward and back inputs.

Thank you again Dave

So, is it safe to suggest that if you did not know the vehicle was equipped with either DCT or ZF8, things would be operationally indistinguishable?

///AVM

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Thank you again Dave

So, is it safe to suggest that if you did not know the vehicle was equipped with either DCT or ZF8, things would be operationally indistinguishable?

///AVM

Never experienced a DCT beyond a reactrack. I think the auto is "softer" than the DCT. But could be the difference between a mechanical coupling and fluid coupling.

Edit: I like the "hit" of engagement. The auto is never jarring on gear changes. Abrupt, but smooth.

Again though, I think this is programming. Having owned some old muscle cars with auto transmissions and adding "shift kits". I can tell you that it is possible to get abrupt shifts with an auto that will chirp the tires when the shift occurs.

[///AVM]

Well, I opened my mind to PDK/DCT and have never looked back. In my mind, things just do not get any better.

With BMW, the only car in the lineup that interests me anymore is the M2/M2C, and I anticipate the G87 will continue to build upon what BMW accomplished with the F87.

Based on the feedback I have received - and greatly appreciate - seems embracing the G87 will include once again opening my mind up to a new transmission.

Truthfully, sounds like the ZR8 will be very comparable to DCT, and the transition SHOULD not be a huge amount to digest?

///AVM

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Having owned some old muscle cars with auto transmissions and adding "shift kits". I can tell you that it is possible to get abrupt shifts with an auto that will chirp the tires when the shift occurs.

Excerpt from one of the referenced articles of 2017 in my earlier post:

"Having already predicted the end of manual transmissions in the next six or seven years, Quintus confirmed that he believed we would all soon be making a return to the torque converter automatic.
"We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics," he said.
"The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher.
"Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter."
Interestingly, Quintus' view that the conventional manual is also doomed is not based solely on emissions. Instead, it's a case of being able to make a manual gearbox strong enough for the super-torquey new generation of engines. He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. Beyond that, he said, durability couldn't be guaranteed.
So why not just shop somewhere like the USA for a manual transmission that can cope with the output of big, burly V8 engines?
"We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful," he said."

[Hankdoll]

I drove an auto M5 comp at the BMW performance center. It shifted increadibly fast, at least as fast (or faster) as the DCT in my 135is. It was really good.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

So, is it safe to suggest that if you did not know the vehicle was equipped with either DCT or ZF8, things would be operationally indistinguishable?

///AVM

Indistinguishable? I disagree IMHO. There is just no way a ZF8 (Slush Box / Torque Converter) can hit as hard between shifts as a DCT in Sport+. It's just not logical

I have driven a vehicle with a ZF8 and it is SMOOTH. However, not quite what I'm looking for in a sports vehicle. I guess we will find out.

I've also heard the ZF8 is much cheaper to repair should it break. I think that is behind the DCTs fall from grace.