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      06-17-2020, 08:19 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_M2 View Post
Well I'm not sure but I run my car with 98 octane (Europe) and the BM3 stg 2.
My car has downpipe and full exhaust Wagner IC and airfilter. What I have understand the car run out of fule very early eaven with stg 2.
You won’t get more power without a custom tune. Altho, it will help prevent HPFP drop outs.

My OEM HPFP would cut out >6500rpm on Stg 2 93 with 93 octane when ambient temps were below 35F.
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      06-17-2020, 12:46 PM   #244
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Revision 3: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eea...90c62a22b5a513

0.5psi less boost, 0.5deg more timing (20psi, 10.5deg). You can see the timing still isn't as clean as my 2nd map (18.7psi, 11deg), and the power didn't feel as good either. So, we'll do another revision.

The good news is Cary adjusted the HPFP tables and there were no drop outs during the pulls, so that gives me hope that we'll be able to fine tune HPFP behavior to solve any drop out issues!
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      06-17-2020, 07:36 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Revision 3: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eea...90c62a22b5a513

0.5psi less boost, 0.5deg more timing (20psi, 10.5deg). You can see the timing still isn't as clean as my 2nd map (18.7psi, 11deg), and the power didn't feel as good either. So, we'll do another revision.

The good news is Cary adjusted the HPFP tables and there were no drop outs during the pulls, so that gives me hope that we'll be able to fine tune HPFP behavior to solve any drop out issues!
Don't do that, at least not for the track.

But I guess by human nature you will have to find out for yourself eventually.

One of my local M2 OG friends is on FBO + full CSF cooling kit + B58tu pump + PS2, pretty similar to your build except for a STG2 turbo, and is tuned by the same tuner (as yours). Feel good and normal on street. And there're quite a few prettier logs (than yours) he shared with me, which is TBH amazing and even eye opening (although there're concerns in log itself).

To be specific, just a few weeks ago, he's doing 20psi (not even load capped) on octane addictive on track, the ambient is not hot (25C or 77F), but the car cannot even make 2 laps at Nanjing F3 track. The coolant/oil temp rocketed up and the corresponding codes threw. Had to pull over. He didn't survive 4 mins.

The takeaway message - those high boost street map isn't made for track. There is no one anywhere in the world in the N55 history that did 20psi at track, or he/she isn't really tracking, whatever supporting mods is on the car. The cooling for oil and coolant will become a bigger issue than for the intake air. Meth, ethanol, even water sprayed IC, anything that adds octane and cools IA, will not help...

From the experience of mine and another local N55 friend, 18+ is about the maximum, for tracking. Every extra PSI seems to put additional huge pressure to the cooling system - again IAT is just part of issue and is much easier to deal with than cylinder temp.

There're bigger concerns than temp management but that would be a little controversial and up for debate...
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      06-17-2020, 07:48 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Don't do that, at least not for the track.

But I guess by human nature you will have to find out for yourself eventually.

One of my local M2 OG friends is on FBO + full CSF cooling kit + B58tu pump + PS2, pretty similar to your build except for a STG2 turbo, and is tuned by the same tuner (as yours). Feel good and normal on street. And there're quite a few prettier logs (than yours) he shared with me, which is TBH amazing and even eye opening.

To be specific, just a few weeks ago, he's doing 20psi (not even load capped) on octane addictive on track, the ambient is not hot (25C or 77F), but the car cannot even make 2 laps at Nanjing F3 track. The coolant/oil temp rocketed up and the corresponding codes threw. Had to pull over. He didn't survive 4 mins.

The takeaway message - those high boost street map isn't made for track. There is no one anywhere in the world in the N55 history that did 20psi at track, or he/she isn't really tracking, whatever supporting mods is on the car. The cooling for oil and coolant will become a bigger issue than for the intake air. Meth, ethanol, even water sprayed IC, anything that adds octane and cools IA, will not help...

From the experience of mine and another local N55 friend, 18+ is about the maximum. Every extra PSI seems to put additional huge pressure to the cooling system - again IAT is just part of issue and is much easier to deal with than cylinder temp.

There're bigger concerns than temp management but that would be a little controversial and up for debate...
Good to hear from you SeanWRT

Hah, yeah that’s definitely in the back of my head.

So far, I’m happiest with the 18.7psi, 11deg timing map. It pulled really strong and was super smooth: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ee7...0b431db2fb3a94

I’d be content sticking with 18.7psi and trying a little more timing to see how it goes, but I need to run thru the process with Cary.

Of note, OTS Stg 2 E30 is 16.5psi & 13deg. Halim said he’d send over a Stg 2+ E30 map when he gets a minute, so we’ll see how that compares.

Inevitably I’ll find something that works great on the street and will have to dial back for the track.
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      06-19-2020, 01:53 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Don't do that, at least not for the track.

But I guess by human nature you will have to find out for yourself eventually.

One of my local M2 OG friends is on FBO + full CSF cooling kit + B58tu pump + PS2, pretty similar to your build except for a STG2 turbo, and is tuned by the same tuner (as yours). Feel good and normal on street. And there're quite a few prettier logs (than yours) he shared with me, which is TBH amazing and even eye opening (although there're concerns in log itself).

To be specific, just a few weeks ago, he's doing 20psi (not even load capped) on octane addictive on track, the ambient is not hot (25C or 77F), but the car cannot even make 2 laps at Nanjing F3 track. The coolant/oil temp rocketed up and the corresponding codes threw. Had to pull over. He didn't survive 4 mins.

The takeaway message - those high boost street map isn't made for track. There is no one anywhere in the world in the N55 history that did 20psi at track, or he/she isn't really tracking, whatever supporting mods is on the car. The cooling for oil and coolant will become a bigger issue than for the intake air. Meth, ethanol, even water sprayed IC, anything that adds octane and cools IA, will not help...

From the experience of mine and another local N55 friend, 18+ is about the maximum, for tracking. Every extra PSI seems to put additional huge pressure to the cooling system - again IAT is just part of issue and is much easier to deal with than cylinder temp.

There're bigger concerns than temp management but that would be a little controversial and up for debate...
Here's V1 of Stg 2+ E30 from PTF (with E47.5 fuel): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eec...90c62ab974c799

Overall, felt pretty smooth and like we could push further. No HPFP issues. What's strange tho is how the boost target and boost actual values don't track together. That's probably some tuning work that I'm unfamiliar with?

Already requested V2.
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      06-19-2020, 02:04 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Here's V1 of Stg 2+ E30 from PTF (with E47.5 fuel): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eec...90c62ab974c799

Overall, felt pretty smooth and like we could push further. No HPFP issues. What's strange tho is how the boost target and boost actual values don't track together. That's probably some tuning work that I'm unfamiliar with?

Already requested V2.
I thought Cary Jordan tuned your car no?

Logs are fine as is, and I do believe you can do a little more for street and maybe a few glorious dyno pulls.

Typical Halim approach it is. Boost target pre throttle is just a boost guideline. Actual boost going above or under target is on purpose and is controlled by something else.

Good luck!

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      06-19-2020, 02:30 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I thought Cary Jordan tuned your car no?

Logs are fine as is, and I do believe you can do a little more for street and maybe a few glorious dyno pulls.

Typical Halim approach it is. Boost target pre throttle is just a boost guideline. Actual boost going above or under target is on purpose and is controlled by something else.

Good luck!

Sean
They're both working on it at the moment.

I requested a Stg 2+ E30 map from Halim a couple weeks back via PTF, and he happened to have some time now to pull V1 together while I'm already underway with Jordan and waiting for another revision.

To be clear, I'm not trying to create a tuning battle or post big HP. Simply trying to find the limits of my setup (with the Dinan turbo, Dorch Stage 1, and half E85/half 93 octane), and what will work good on the street and track.

So, it'll be interesting to see how the different approaches work out.
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      06-25-2020, 11:18 AM   #250
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Hey guys, just a quick update that the HPFP issues I was having seem to be tune related. I haven't had any issues in the latest revision of Cary's map, and I've never had any issues with PTF's map which uses the Dorch setting in BM3. More revisions coming, so I'll let you all know.

Also for the Dorch folks out there, I sent the question below to Chris and he emailed me back in 10min with a response. If you take a look at my logs you'll see the squiggles. SeanWRT pointed this out to me to dig into.

"Hey Chris.

I’ve been running the Stage 1 HPFP with an E47 mix, and am going thru some tuning revisions with both Halim and Cary. I noticed the HPFP psi fluctuates within a range a lot more than the OEM pump did which stayed pretty flat as long as I didn’t go over an E25-E30 mix. Is this OK?"

"Your logs look great. The way the flow control valve works in our pumps versus the OEM pumps is slightly different and this difference is what you are seeing. If the core ECU logic were changed, we could more closely mimic the dead-flat line like an OE pump, but instead you will see small ripples. These ripples are not indicative of any sort of mechanical problems and they are only 1-3% outside of target. This is all perfectly normal and your car looks great on the fuel system side of things.

Let me know if you have any other questions."
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      06-28-2020, 11:59 AM   #251
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I’ve read through this thread twice today and have been keeping up with the thread during its existence. I have yet to notice anyone utilizing just pump gas (93oct) with the new marketed fuel pumps. Has anyone had any success with only using pump gas with these newer HPFP? I’d rather not mix fuel for track sessions. Too much work.

Is it still difficult to obtain a reliable track setup using only pump gas, upgraded HPFP, more efficient stg1/2 turbo, and appropriate cooling adjuncts for a track reliable 400-430whp (or more)? Are E mixes really that necessary to keep operating temps lower?
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      06-28-2020, 12:36 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by booya_45 View Post
I’ve read through this thread twice today and have been keeping up with the thread during its existence. I have yet to notice anyone utilizing just pump gas (93oct) with the new marketed fuel pumps. Has anyone had any success with only using pump gas with these newer HPFP? I’d rather not mix fuel for track sessions. Too much work.

Is it still difficult to obtain a reliable track setup using only pump gas, upgraded HPFP, more efficient stg1/2 turbo, and appropriate cooling adjuncts for a track reliable 400-430whp (or more)? Are E mixes really that necessary to keep operating temps lower?
Some of the other more knowledgeable engine tuning guys here will chime in with more details, but you essentially become octane limited with only 93 pump gas bc timing will get pulled from higher IATs (>105F) from the custom tunes.

This is the main reason I jumped to adding E85, and I also hate calc'ing mixes all the time, so I'm doing half 93, half E85 when I fill up--makes it pretty easy.

I just got back from doing logs on Halim's V3 Stg 2H E30 map and Cary's Stg 2+ E45 map, so I'm getting closer to getting these dialed in enough to hit the dyno just to see what the HP gain is worth.

Last note: When I've run 100 octane or E30 on track, even E30 has less timing pull than race gas when IATs are high--it's pretty impressive, so I'm looking forward to using ~E47.5 on track.

Last edited by ZM2; 06-28-2020 at 12:41 PM..
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      06-28-2020, 04:37 PM   #253
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Gotcha. I drive my car to the track normally. Last weekend, I was at VIR and made the voyage from Philadelphia, 6.5hr each way. What a nuisance that would have been to lug extra e85 around for the weekend. Reliable and safe power off pump gas would be a nice option if it were possible...
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      06-28-2020, 04:49 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booya_45 View Post
Gotcha. I drive my car to the track normally. Last weekend, I was at VIR and made the voyage from Philadelphia, 6.5hr each way. What a nuisance that would have been to lug extra e85 around for the weekend. Reliable and safe power off pump gas would be a nice option if it were possible...
Yup, that’s a tough one.

When I trek that far I switch to my 93 octane map and gas, then find the closest E85 station to the track and fill the tank and some jugs and switch back to the E30 or soon to be custom Emix map.

If I can’t find that, I’ll usually stick to my 93 octane map on track and put in a few gallons of race gas just to help timing from getting pulled, which does make a noticeable difference.

Or if I get bored and don’t have E85, I’ll go pure race gas and switch to the race gas map. The reality is the race gas map isn’t going to add too much hp for too long bc timing will still get pulled as IATs go >120F. The few tenths gained is usually overshadowed by driving consistency and not worth $10/gal.

Hence, why I stick to cheap E85 when it’s close to the track. The added power and cooling effects of E85 have gained me >1.5sec on a 90sec track vs OTS Stg 2 93 and 93 octane, and the power never falls off which makes it more enjoyable. The custom tune feels like it’ll get me another second on the track, but won’t know for sure until I can run it and make sure the car stays cool enough.

When not on the track, the higher Emix and custom tune are a hoot around town—this thing is a rocket ship when getting on the gas now! The gains on track just end up being less bc we’re focused on stable power under high temps.

You definitely need a penchant of wanting to tweak and play with things, tho. If not, all this will just be a PITA!

Last edited by ZM2; 06-28-2020 at 05:33 PM..
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      06-30-2020, 04:51 AM   #255
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Installation literally underway here!

Cannot wait to get this thing on the new map, hoping the new stage 2 numbers around 420bhp
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      06-30-2020, 10:30 AM   #256
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nice, are you going custom tune?
what fuel / mix will you use?
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      06-30-2020, 10:38 AM   #257
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Installation literally underway here!

Cannot wait to get this thing on the new map, hoping the new stage 2 numbers around 420bhp
I've been loving running an E47 mix and taking the boost up to 21+ psi! Still tweaking the tunes, but we're getting close!
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      07-01-2020, 12:01 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I've been loving running an E47 mix and taking the boost up to 21+ psi! Still tweaking the tunes, but we're getting close!
ZM2 any plans to do 60-130mph times or a dyno run once your new setup is complete?
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      07-01-2020, 02:36 AM   #259
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nice, are you going custom tune?
what fuel / mix will you use?
Yes! First custom tune without dorch was 405bhp and 605nm

Aiming for around 420bhp to 620nm

Running 100 Ocatane fuel not going futher atm

On dyno now will update !
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      07-01-2020, 07:50 AM   #260
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ZM2 any plans to do 60-130mph times or a dyno run once your new setup is complete?
For sure. There will be dyno plots! Not so much for big numbers, but to find the best curve since I’m tuning for the track. And, we’ll figure out just how much this little Dinan turbo can do.

It just won’t be for a couple weeks so we can get the tunes pretty dialed in, and I’m waiting for a 3.5bar pre-throttle TMAP to show up so boost is read correctly when it hits 21+ psi.
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      07-01-2020, 08:46 PM   #261
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Lots of info here... Thoughts on what HPFP is best bang for your buck running a stock turbo FBO E50 setup?

Or for those who are running same - why you chose the pump you did.
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      07-08-2020, 03:29 AM   #262
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This isn't relevant to the N55 but for any of you S55 guys, spool performance made a dual FX-150 kit for the S55. This should be good for making some huge power on DI alone.

http://spoolperformance.us/index.php...&product_id=95


If spool makes an S55 retrofit kit for the N55 and makes it compatible with their FX-180 PI will absolutely be obsoleted imo, even though PI really is obsolete as of now but with a dual setup it will make PI obsolete for even high HP users (which is probably the only current application for PI when you are pushing well past 800-1k hp).
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      07-08-2020, 09:10 AM   #263
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Here’s a log of my finalized E47 tune with Halim: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5efc...729b2bbd3df3f0 Super strong & stable, even on a 100F+ day when I was doing some other logs.

We tried pushing the Dinan turbo further (up to 23.5psi), but it couldn’t handle it. Altho, it’s pretty impressive to see the little Dinan running strong at 20-21psi! Dyno coming in a couple weeks.

The good news is Halim was focused on making this (or slight variation) an OTS map for the folks running ethanol with upgraded HPFP’s (Stg 2H/2+ E30), so you all may see the benefits of this effort soon...

Last edited by ZM2; 07-09-2020 at 07:11 AM..
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      07-08-2020, 02:28 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long_Wang View Post
Lots of info here... Thoughts on what HPFP is best bang for your buck running a stock turbo FBO E50 setup?

Or for those who are running same - why you chose the pump you did.
We max’ed out my Dinan turbo on E47 with the Dorch Stage 1 pump, so that would be plenty for the stock turbo.

If you’re planning to run E45-50 with a turbo larger than the Dinan, you’ll want a Stage 2 HPFP. My Dorch Stage 1 was beginning to dip (but not crash) on the first pull but leveled out on follow up pulls when we pushed boost >23psi. That ended up being OK for my setup bc the Dinan couldn’t handle that much boost anyways.
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