[F87source]

Originally Posted by AWC-F87

I guess one of us will find out lol

I put the turbo in myself so I know how tight things are in there.

I think there should be enough room. The main coolant pipe is probably the closest thing to the manifold. I doubt the water pump will need to be removed. Worst case I could see the engine Mount being in the way.

Lol yeah I suppose we will see. Hopefully it can be done without too much being removed. I would love to grab one this upcoming summer as well.

[ZM2]

F87source

Quick update that the Heat Shield Products folks got back to me. Nice guys and they really seem to know their stuff. AND....I'll have a turbofold shield and some downpipe wrapping to install and test out while we're doing the turbo.

Thank you for the heads up!

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

F87source

Quick update that the Heat Shield Products folks got back to me. Nice guys and they really seem to know their stuff. AND....I'll have a turbofold shield and some downpipe wrapping to install and test out while we're doing the turbo.

Thank you for the heads up!

Awesome freaking sauce - is it a one size fits all for the turbo? I imagine some cores are larger than others. Do you have an IRgauge?

If you’re going for broke, you can take my MILVS and install and test them too - just need to have Bob from stageFP or the like change the perimeters

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Awesome freaking sauce - is it a one size fits all for the turbo? I imagine some cores are larger than others. Do you have an IRgauge?

If you’re going for broke, you can take my MILVS and install and test them too - just need to have Bob from stageFP or the like change the perimeters

In regards to fitment I have zero clue I just saw this yesterday on IG.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Awesome freaking sauce - is it a one size fits all for the turbo? I imagine some cores are larger than others. Do you have an IRgauge?

If you’re going for broke, you can take my MILVS and install and test them too - just need to have Bob from stageFP or the like change the perimeters

Hahah, appreciate that. Going to do one step at a time.

It’ll be interesting to see what the IAT and temp impacts are with the turbofold & downpipe insulation.

They’re sending these two things to try for the downpipe. Apparently the Armor needs an air gap:
https://www.heatshieldproducts.com/heatshield-armor
https://www.heatshieldproducts.com/i...hield-products

[ZM2]

So, the update is the turbofold shield didn’t fit: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8#post28223778

[ChrisM4]

Great thread.

I think you guys should consider a couple of things. (From my time racing on other platforms, turbo V8s etc)

It looks like you've already done a lot of work on the cooling loop, oil cooling etc.

- Run a coated catless down pipe (versus catted) This will give you lower EGTs, lower back pressure, more exhaust flow, less heat under hood in general. (That cat is a giant heat soak)
- Turbo blanket, wrapped down pipe (Coated too if possible)
- Get the coolest air possible to the filter (Via hoses/scoop, what ever works)
- Vented hood

Those should all help…likely incremental but still a measurable difference.

Cheers,
Chris

[///393]

Bumping this to see if ZM2 has any updated data with the TTE460 or any further updates from a year on.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

Bumping this to see if ZM2 has any updated data with the TTE460 or any further updates from a year on.

The short is the car is still getting too hot during summer track days.

We have a few things we’re going to try, but my money says there’s a balance bn how tall of an IC you get for IAT management vs how much clean air makes it to the radiator.

Unfortunately it’s been a slow track season for me (really busy with other things), or I’d have more data and a fix by now.

However, the TTE460 and Stg 2+ Multimap are soooo good around town and on the highway. Just gotta get my track cooling situ resolved.

[thejeremyman9]

Curious if you have tried other heat management stuff. for example i vaguely recall some company offering aftermarket heat shields for the turbo side. or something like heat wrapping/shielding the DP, manifold, etc.

Also how do your trans temps do?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Curious if you have tried other heat management stuff. for example i vaguely recall some company offering aftermarket heat shields for the turbo side. or something like heat wrapping/shielding the DP, manifold, etc.

Also how do your trans temps do?

I did wrap the DP, but it had no impact. Was going to wrap the turbo & manifold, but the beta kit that was sent to me didn’t fit.

DCT temps on track average 215-220F and will peak 237F with the stock DCT cooler and larger M2 CSR pan. No worries on those until they get >265F.

[AmuroRay]

ZM2 - can you tell me what the total cooling setup is?
Oil, water, and dct?

[johnung]

Ceramic coating won’t have the big impact that you are looking for with your issue, but I thought that I’d mention it for those interested or unaware. I had my Fabspeed Sportcat HJS Catted Downpipe ceramic coated by Bonehead Performance outside of Philadelphia.

It’s a second generation family coating business that does excellent work. Every day they have parts shipped to them for coating. They also did my strut brace in a black powder coat that had a finish that doesn’t show fingerprints and matched the black colors under my hood.

Ceramic coating the downpipe helps prevent the heat from radiating back under the hood. Instead it keeps heat moving down and back through the exhaust system. Catted downpipes are only ceramic coated on the outside, but Catless can be done inside and outside. There are nine or more different ceramic coating color options. Photos attached.

[johnung]

Several years ago I was investigating cooling options. I had a long phone discussion with a race engineer at Evolution Raceworks. He had been involved with product development using their track cars as test vehicles.

He said that frequently hitting an oil temperature of 260+ degrees Fahrenheit is when they decide to upgrade the oil cooler by replacing the small stock cooler with a larger unit. Below is the link to the ER Oil Cooler Upgrade Kit. There are several photos of the kit installed on an M2. I was impressed with the quality of materials and the description of how the design evolved.

At the time I believe they also had a dual oil cooler upgrade which was essentially a second same cooler somehow installed on the left front of the car. I haven’t seen it on their website in a long time.

https://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/299

[F87source]

Originally Posted by johnung

Several years ago I was investigating cooling options. I had a long phone discussion with a race engineer at Evolution Raceworks. He had been involved with product development using their track cars as test vehicles.

He said that frequently hitting an oil temperature of 260+ degrees Fahrenheit is when they decide to upgrade the oil cooler by replacing the small stock cooler with a larger unit. Below is the link to the ER Oil Cooler Upgrade Kit. There are several photos of the kit installed on an M2. I was impressed with the quality of materials and the description of how the design evolved.

At the time I believe they also had a dual oil cooler upgrade which was essentially a second same cooler somehow installed on the left front of the car. I haven’t seen it on their website in a long time.

https://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/299

I think ER makes good stuff, but I don't like how tight their oil line adapter is (the one going from the OFH to the heat exchanger seems a bit short).

Their core looks pretty generic too imo, and looks like it was just adapted to fit the m2.


Whereas someone like d088 has a bespoke m2 oil cooler, that's just as large as the ER one but it's designed from the ground up to fit the m2 and use the m2 mounting hardware and factory hoses. So its OEM level of quality.


Dual oil coolers was for the E series, we can afford to delete the aux water cooler.






Overall I don't think oil is the problem, I think the problem is water temperature and there's no good solution so far.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by johnung

Several years ago I was investigating cooling options. I had a long phone discussion with a race engineer at Evolution Raceworks. He had been involved with product development using their track cars as test vehicles.

He said that frequently hitting an oil temperature of 260+ degrees Fahrenheit is when they decide to upgrade the oil cooler by replacing the small stock cooler with a larger unit. Below is the link to the ER Oil Cooler Upgrade Kit. There are several photos of the kit installed on an M2. I was impressed with the quality of materials and the description of how the design evolved.

At the time I believe they also had a dual oil cooler upgrade which was essentially a second same cooler somehow installed on the left front of the car. I haven’t seen it on their website in a long time.

https://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/299

I have the CSF oil cooler in my car, but not sure how it compares to the ER or do88.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I have the CSF oil cooler in my car, but not sure how it compares to the ER or do88.

The ER Oil Cooler Kit was designed a number of years ago so I wouldn’t doubt that a more recent product may be better. I was just throwing it out there.

It makes sense that there would be interplay between the coolant system and oil system both jammed together under the hood. Makes me wonder if say the oil temperature could be brought down by 20 degrees with a more efficient cooler, if the coolant temperature would also come down by a significant amount?

I recall some posts with guys claiming to have combined some components to create ductwork to better direct airflow from the front of the car to specific locations. Maybe something like that could increase airflow to a section of the radiator, making the cooling system more efficient?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by johnung

The ER Oil Cooler Kit was designed a number of years ago so I wouldn’t doubt that a more recent product may be better. I was just throwing it out there.

It makes sense that there would be interplay between the coolant system and oil system both jammed together under the hood. Makes me wonder if say the oil temperature could be brought down by 20 degrees with a more efficient cooler, if the coolant temperature would also come down by a significant amount?

I recall some posts with guys claiming to have combined some components to create ductwork to better direct airflow from the front of the car to specific locations. Maybe something like that could increase airflow to a section of the radiator, making the cooling system more efficient?

Yup, coolant and oil temps are heavily interlinked, if you drop coolant temps you'll drop oil temps. That's how the car controls oil temps too - in the winter it'll spike coolant temps via closing the thermostat to keep the oil hot. Otherwise it has no means of controlling oil temps since the oil thermostat is mechanical.

[AmuroRay]

Yeah, this isn’t an issue with an Intercooler airflow, its because the parts probably have zero r&d behind them and are adapted to the M2 chassis in the most “cost effective” way possible.

I would honestly upgrade the oil cooler and be done - the first page was the indication it was an oil issue with temps exceeding 250F. 4 years ago, a guy bbnks2 was discussing oil temps and oil coolers (E9x chassis) I didn’t have a turbo car, so it wasn’t really on my radar - but they pointed out that BMWs hot weather/performance package on cars that didn’t have oil coolers, was an upgraded radiator.

The reason, as people picked up here - was the coolant was being used as an oil cooler. The issue they had was there was a limit to how effective that was without proper oil cooling.

If I were you, just do the ER unit. Call them and ask them about how dense the fin pack is, and their results, i love the fact it come with its own ducting and it’s actually fitted to an M2x
I’m bitter about CSF because I’ve always felt like it was one of those brands who’se performance didn’t match up to the price- no one has ever said this about ER.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Yeah, this isn’t an issue with an Intercooler airflow, its because the parts probably have zero r&d behind them and are adapted to the M2 chassis in the most “cost effective” way possible.

I would honestly upgrade the oil cooler and be done - the first page was the indication it was an oil issue with temps exceeding 250F. 4 years ago, a guy bbnks2 was discussing oil temps and oil coolers (E9x chassis) I didn’t have a turbo car, so it wasn’t really on my radar - but they pointed out that BMWs hot weather/performance package on cars that didn’t have oil coolers, was an upgraded radiator.

The reason, as people picked up here - was the coolant was being used as an oil cooler. The issue they had was there was a limit to how effective that was without proper oil cooling.

If I were you, just do the ER unit. Call them and ask them about how dense the fin pack is, and their results, i love the fact it come with its own ducting and it’s actually fitted to an M2x
I’m bitter about CSF because I’ve always felt like it was one of those brands who’se performance didn’t match up to the price- no one has ever said this about ER.

I doubt the performance difference bn the ER and CSF oil coolers (if there is one) will fix my coolant temp issues.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Yeah, this isn’t an issue with an Intercooler airflow, its because the parts probably have zero r&d behind them and are adapted to the M2 chassis in the most “cost effective” way possible.

This statement is absolutely false.

1) The m2 has a completely different oil cooler design compared to the regular n55, from shape, size, to oil cooler hose fitting locations. This is why CSF has 2 different versions for the M2 and standard N55. So you can't adapt anything to the m2, you have to redesign it or make it from scratch. The m2 was also the driving force for all of these cooling mods, before the m2 no oil coolers or radiator upgrades existed.

2) The CSF gear was developed specifically for the m2 and adapted to fit other cars. The oil cooler, radiator, dct cooler, and intercooler was created on paradoxical's car - from feedback of the m2 getting too hot on track. The kit was then developed with the stock parts being sent to CSF for analysis and aide in developing new parts. I watched this happen back in 2016-2018 (I can't remember the exact time frame) before SEMA, but sadly that forum thread doesn't exist anymore (well it does exist but the photos are all gone now) because paradoxical deleted it when he sold his m2.

D088 developed their own kit in house on their m2, again with parts designed specifically for the m2 and custom carbon fiber ducting as well specifically made for the m2. They even have testing data as well. D088 even has CFD data for their intercooler.


So no the notion that these kits have zero r&d and are adapted to the m2 chassis in the cheapest way possible is absolute not true and has no basis in reality. If anything the cooling kits are adapted to the non m2 in the cheapest possible way, because CSF and D088's kit (in the case of D088 everything is m2 specific and only some parts could be transferred over the non m2 models) were concieved on the m2, tested on the m2, for the m2.




It clearly has to do with the intercooler for so many reasons:

1) The intercooler sits right infront of the ac condensor which sits right in front of the radiator. So the more things the air has to travel through and cool before reaching the radiator not only heats up the air making it less effective at cooling, but also takes flow energy out of the air making it harder for the air to pass through the radiator and more likely to spill around the sides via the gaps.

2) The extremely large racecore intercoolers sit up extremely high, this completely blocks the ducts preventing them from effectively expanding the air flow and ducting it to the top of the radiator. The lack of expansion is very detrimental because expansion slows down air speed while increasing air pressure as described by Bernoulli's principle. This high pressure air is what makes penetrating the radiator cores more efficent, while slower air flow allows better heat exchange. This video explains it:

I know you value massive intercoolers for the sake of getting near ambient iat's, but on a racecar that is not the way to go. It is better to sacrifice iat's and in order to get better coolant temperatures. Because you can deal with iat's another way - higher octane, ethanol for its evaporative cooling effect in the cylinders, or water injection.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I would honestly upgrade the oil cooler and be done - the first page was the indication it was an oil issue with temps exceeding 250F. 4 years ago, a guy bbnks2 was discussing oil temps and oil coolers (E9x chassis) I didn’t have a turbo car, so it wasn’t really on my radar - but they pointed out that BMWs hot weather/performance package on cars that didn’t have oil coolers, was an upgraded radiator.

The reason, as people picked up here - was the coolant was being used as an oil cooler. The issue they had was there was a limit to how effective that was without proper oil cooling.

If I were you, just do the ER unit. Call them and ask them about how dense the fin pack is, and their results, i love the fact it come with its own ducting and it’s actually fitted to an M2x
I’m bitter about CSF because I’ve always felt like it was one of those brands who’se performance didn’t match up to the price- no one has ever said this about ER.

Zm2 has an oil cooler - CSF's kit. If you ask me my opinion would be the ER oil cooler kit is the worst one available for the m2. It literally looks like an off the shelf cooler with a bracket to make it fit the m2, then they had to adapt the an lines to the m2's oiling system and as a result it appears the oil cooler line to the heat exchanger seems too short and large, so it has to run over the valve cover and rub agains the coolant expansion tank. I literally don't like anything about the ER oil cooler (their intercooler is a different story though, and I do like that for the potential of running a longer radiator). ER also has 0 published testing data vs. CSF and D088.





I'm also not a fan of ER's shroud, they have this louvered back box which will restrict flow through the oil cooler even further (the air also has to go through the fender liner which also has louvers so ER's louvers can only add even more restriction) - which is never a good thing.




No one has said anything about the ER oil cooler because I feel they are the least popular, and thus have the least amount of customers to talk about their stuff.




I think the D088 one is the best, it seems to be the largest, has excellent fitment and made specfifically from the ground up for the m2, and has the best ducting that sits right up against the bumper and can be sealed to the bumper meaning no air leakages and all air goes to the oil cooler.


Also fin density isn't everything, internals of the oil cooler matters (CSF has their B tube technology, D088 is a cooling specialist as well and likely to have propritary technology, ER looks like they used off the shelf bits), flow through the oil cooler matters. An extremely dense core means an extremely hard time for air to pass through - especially when the bumper hole to the oil cooler on the m2 is small meaning air flow through there is going to be limited.

[ZM2]

Current setup and cooling mods:

Power - 470-480whp
BM3 Stg 2++ Multimap with E50
TTE460 turbo
Dorch Stg 1 HPFP
Turbosmart plumb back BOV
HJS 300-cell downpipe
Akrapovic Exhaust
MST v2 inlet
3.5-bar TMAP
Stock airbox & filter

Cooling
do88 radiator
do88 aux radiator
CSF oil cooler
Stock DCT cooler with larger M2 CSR DCT oil pan
Evo3 IC
Suvneer GTS vented hood
BM3 MaxCool setting
E39 in line additional coolant pump (with F87source help)
E50 fuel
Motul 300V oil
100% water + wetter in the summer

As for latest logs & changes, I switched from the CSF to the do88 radiator and am running a new Stg 2++ Multimap tune that Halim gave me.

I don't have a good comparison log of the CSF to do88 radiator switch bc I've been racing cars this year vs HPDE in my M2. What I do have is a session from Summit Point Main (CSF) and NJMP Thunderbolt (do88) in similar ambient to compare against. You'll see in the logs below that it took many more laps in the NJMP/do88 log to get coolant temps to 235F, even tho I was running a 50/50 mix at NJMP vs 100% water + wetter at Summit. However, I think this is junk data, as the tracks are vastly different, including 150+ mph top speed at Summit vs 135+ mph at Thunderbolt, and the braking zones at Summit are much harder.

Secondly, in the track logs I'm running Stg 2+ Multimap v1.0, which pegs boost at 20.8-psi thru the rev range. My setup could hit that no problem, but Halim released v1.1 & 1.2 which changed the tuning strategy so that guys with stock turbos could run the Mutlimap with no issues. It means a little less power for my setup (and why Halim gave me a Stg 2++ Multimap to use), altho, I potentially like the tuning strategy a lot more for the track.

You'll note in my Stg 2+ v1.2 and Stg 2++/Stg 3 Multimap logs that the tune is no longer pegging boost, instead boost is higher a lower rpms and drifts lower in higher rpms (3-4psi lower at redline), keeping the turbo in a higher efficiency zone & lower WGDC in upper rpms. To me, that means I should be generating less heat on track, albeit a little less power, but probably worth the trade off.

So, for the sake of science, before changing the intercooler I guess I should get another hot summer day HPDE log with the do88 radiator w/ 100% water + wetter and the new tune to see how coolant temps look. While I'm sure they'll be better, I'm not overly optimistic as the track logs are at 50F ambient and I'm still hitting 235F coolant temp at NJMP which has 15mph lower top speed than Summit. Who knows tho, maybe the radiator change and 100% water + wetter, plus the new tune, will have a decent combo impact.

Summit Log
Stg 2+ MM v1.0, CSF radiator, 100% water + wetter
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6355...0b43ae5b703a55

NJMP Log
Stg 2+ MM v1.0, do88 radiator, 50/50 mix
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6386...0b43af6b73a3a3

Stg 2+ MM v1.0 log
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=6333161dd10b432642ac8a1b

Stg 2+ MM v1.2 log
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=6471344fc090c66243bfeef0

Stg 2++ (Stg 3) MM log
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=647b...90c6aa737bb893