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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > Stage 2+ E30/racegas 100-200kph, 1/4 mile, dyno etc results thread

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      11-21-2021, 11:16 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
This is kind of log every tuner can only dream to see. Also the draggy time confirm the power. In my book it's as good as N55 tuning gets, I'm officially jealous

The hpfp concern is legitimate. I noticed on the log it's wiggling a bit at top end even when holding up pressure fine. Could be tuning related. Maybe trade in for a STG2 pump next for the last bit power and longevity?

I'm really curious of the spool up with the tte460. I'm sure ethanol helps some. But From old log years back even on pump gas it's really close to stock.

Dyno on 5th gear and from 1500rpm please like I did. Doesn't really hurt the internals it's just building up low down.
Thanks Sean!

I thought about the Stg 2 HPFP, but I may just stick with Stage 1. It's pretty annoying to have to crank the car for 5-10sec or do a second restart parked outside in the winter while using an E47-E55 mix, and a Stg 2 pump isn't going to fix that annoyance. So, I may just stick with E40 in the winter and see if the Stg 1 HPFP is enough.

I know going with E50+, getting an Emix sensor or LiveAdjusting, and then doing cold weather runs will yield the fastest results (likely high 6's), but on the OTS and E43 I'm already spinning my 285/35/19 4S's up to 55mph before they finally hook up right before the 100kph mark for a Draggy pull. I might put some new 275 & 295/35/18 DWS 06 Plus's on my track wheels in the winter to help with that, but it's still kinda silly!

The pump does just fine on E47-55 when temps are when summer tires can hook up, so another reason I may just stick with Stg 1 HPFP, we'll see.

And, I'll definitely start the 5th gear dyno pull early to see how the spool compares to my Dinan and other graphs out there for PS2's!
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      11-22-2021, 04:44 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Was able to get a couple of Draggy runs in. This is non-live adjusted OTS, and my HPFP was barely giving out in the last few hundred RPM. I also got a 7.1 with a tiny too much negative slope.

So, I need to dial back the mix slightly with this much power, and there’s prob another .1-.2sec on the table for the Stg 2+ E30 OTS with the TTE460 and E40 fuel, and that’s without LiveAdjust or an Emix sensor!

Related, here's a 4th gear pull I did just before the Draggy runs. It's lovely! The TTE460 isn't even breaking a sweat with >20psi and it looks like the OTS put in a little more timing than usual without LiveAdjust bc the colder weather: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6199...729b67b25b0e88

SeanWRT
Great times Zack, for just a turbo change on the same map it’s impressive. Like you say I think you could get a few more tenths with the live adjust turned up. Logs looks clean and the turbo is definitely in a nice place. Interesting to see how this turbo fairs on track and how temps are effected with the more efficient turbo setup.

7.1/7.2 is similar to stage 1 s55 times so I’d expect 480ish whp on your setup when you get round to dynoing it. Your car must be a blast
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      11-23-2021, 03:20 PM   #377
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UPDATE!

First, a shout out to Dorch Engineering! I spent the morning going back and forth with Chris over some logs, and he quickly spotted my issue and we got it fixed! Now for the story...

My high RPM stuttering just wasn't sitting right with me as pure HPFP drop out. Usually, if I was running a high Emix I would get drop outs at tip in more often than the last few hundred RPM. That and SeanWRT comment about the issue looking like maybe something with the tune got me thinking to investigate.

I started by dropping Emix down to E35. It was better, but still slight stutters up top. Then, I flashed back to my saved non-CustomROM Stg 2+ E30 map and the problem went away completely! Baffled, I sent logs to Chris and he quickly spotted that my CustomROM map version logs were not on the latest Dorch Stg 1 HPFP updates. Apparently I jumped on reflashing the BM3 update just slightly too early last week whenever folks mentioned the Dorch Stage 1 update was out.

I then reflashed the CustomROM Stg 2+ map, put E40 in the car, and the problem was gone! So I then went to E50 and Live Adjusted to E60, and the problem was still gone: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619d...0b43577c34e542 You will note in the log that my HPFP is dipping on tip in, but that's much easier to manage than mystery high RPM stuttering. I'll just dial back the Emix slightly in colder weather if needed.

Also, Chris had me start logging the RAM HPFP Angle (Final) parameter, which he stated essentially shows the duty cycle of the HPFP. You will note it max'ing out when my HPFP dips in lower RPMs, and then goes lower as my HPFP gets back to target. So, this may be a good parameter for us all to start logging to see just how hard our HPFP's are working with our various mods and Emixes, and when you're knocking on the door for an upgrade. Mine is working pretty hard!

Needless to say, the car feels even better and quicker, and I really do think there's a 6.9x 100-200 in it on the right road/day. I'm incredibly pleased with how fast and smooth the car is, and I never thought I'd have this much power with no spool lag. I'm absolutely loving my car more than ever now!

Dyno day in a couple weeks and more Draggy runs will tell all! Thanks for all the help guys!

Final moral of the story, just buy a Stage 2 pump and you won’t have to worry about any of this! That’s OK, it’s kept me learning/entertained during the pandemic, and now that COVID seems to be subsiding here it’s time to rock! Got my booster shot today!

Last edited by ZM2; 11-23-2021 at 05:10 PM..
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      11-23-2021, 05:51 PM   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
UPDATE!

First, a shout out to Dorch Engineering! I spent the morning going back and forth with Chris over some logs, and he quickly spotted my issue and we got it fixed! Now for the story...

Final moral of the story, just buy a Stage 2 pump and you won’t have to worry about any of this! That’s OK, it’s kept me learning/entertained during the pandemic, and now that COVID seems to be subsiding here it’s time to rock! Got my booster shot today!
+1 for the team at Dorch Engineering. Chris really does know his stuff.

You should wait for the lift kit that they're working on! It should have been finalized by August, but due to global production delays and shortages the release date got pushed back. Hopefully it'll be released by end of year.
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      11-23-2021, 06:01 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by -Eidos View Post
+1 for the team at Dorch Engineering. Chris really does know his stuff.

You should wait for the lift kit that they're working on! It should have been finalized by August, but due to global production delays and shortages the release date got pushed back. Hopefully it'll be released by end of year.
Chris mentioned to me today that the N55LK is close to production.

Altho, he was very helpful to ask what my goals were, and said since I’m not going big power it would make more sense to just go with a Stage 2 pump (if needed) vs the lift kit in my case.

He also mentioned a discount for previous Dorch customers to upgrade, but you have to ping them about that.
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      11-23-2021, 07:50 PM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Eidos View Post
+1 for the team at Dorch Engineering. Chris really does know his stuff.

You should wait for the lift kit that they're working on! It should have been finalized by August, but due to global production delays and shortages the release date got pushed back. Hopefully it'll be released by end of year.
Chris mentioned to me today that the N55LK is close to production.

Altho, he was very helpful to ask what my goals were, and said since I’m not going big power it would make more sense to just go with a Stage 2 pump (if needed) vs the lift kit in my case.

He also mentioned a discount for previous Dorch customers to upgrade, but you have to ping them about that.
The stage 2 hpfp calibrations seem to be dialed in for the OTS maps and the lift kit install will be a bit more labor than just the hpfp swap

So that makes sense if that's all the flow that you'll need (And if you're okay with selling your stage 1 for the stage 2 - some people don't like the hassle).
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      11-24-2021, 12:17 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Needless to say, the car feels even better and quicker, and I really do think there's a 6.9x 100-200 in it on the right road/day. I'm incredibly pleased with how fast and smooth the car is, and I never thought I'd have this much power with no spool lag. I'm absolutely loving my car more than ever now!
Glad to know the pump glitch got fixed. You really rock.

6.9s would impress, big time. For a PS2 m235i to do that, it takes 23-25psi, a good day, good surface and a bit favorable inclination.
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      11-25-2021, 01:15 PM   #382
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Zach... where'd you find your tte460 ?
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      11-25-2021, 03:06 PM   #383
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Zach... where'd you find your tte460 ?
Thanks
They’re not easy to come by in the US. You either have to send your turbofold to Germany to be upgraded, or you have to buy a compete turbofold from TTE: https://tteglobal.com/bmw/1-series/e...mber=SW10072.1

I got mine slightly used from fellow forum member jnwin

I’ll make you a deal on my Dinan if you want to do a cheaper intermediate step in the meantime. It at least peaks 440-450whp and keeps power 405-410whp to redline, vs. the stock turbo that drops big time.
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      12-06-2021, 04:41 PM   #384
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Here's the quick update: 477whp & 536wftlbs with the TTE460!

Overall we're hitting the same peak torque amount as the Dinan 200rpm earlier, and adding another 30wftlbs only 150rpm or so later--that's what we mean by fast spool!

Peak power is 35whp more than the Dinan, altho, we're holding almost 450whp to redline, whereas the Dinan is 400-410whp to 6600rpm and then drops significantly--we're looking at 50-75whp gain above 6k. Look at the area under the curve gain, esp in the upper RPMs! We're shifting the curve left, right, and up with the TTE.

Lastly, I was chatting with the dyno tech today and he said exactly what I figured out without me prompting him--they've calibrated their Dynojet to read about ~10whp lower than others to be more in line with a Mustang. I estimated 7-9whp difference on theirs vs other Dynojet's I've been on. So, pretty happy with 477whp on their Dynojet.

Loving this TTE setup with plenty of power and fast spool! Versus a PS2 on this map, I'm trading 25whp with torque/spool coming on 1000-RPM sooner: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1766028 I'll take that trade!

Daleb SeanWRT
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      12-06-2021, 06:05 PM   #385
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You the man ZM2. Thanks for sharing to make sure all us stock turbo folks lay awake at night wondering “what if…”

Sure would love to see an in-car video of a 3-5 rip if that’s a possibility. Either way, congrats on getting it dialed in.
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      12-06-2021, 06:07 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Here's the quick update: 477whp & 536wftlbs with the TTE!

I'll do the overlays with my Dinan later tonight and update this post, but overall we're hitting the same peak torque amount as the Dinan 200rpm earlier, and adding another 30wftlbs only 150rpm or so later--that's what we mean by fast spool!

Peak power is 35whp more than the Dinan, altho, we're holding almost 450whp to redline, whereas the Dinan is 400-410whp. That's some area under the curve!

Lastly, I was chatting with the dyno tech today and he said exactly what I've found without me prompting him--they've calibrated their Dynojet to read about ~10whp lower than others to be more in line with a Mustang. I estimated 7-9whp difference on theirs vs other Dynojet's around here. So, pretty happy with 477whp on their Dynojet!

Loving this TTE setup with plenty of power and fast spool! Versus a PS2 on this map, I'm trading 25whp for peak torque/spool coming 1000-RPM sooner: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1766028 I'll take that trade!

Dyno overlay's coming tonight!
TTE are good turbo's and their after service is A1. I had the 550 on my car previously and the shaft snap, I had it off the car sent back to them in europe and back on in around 10 days. it had minimal lag once you were on it tho you wouldn't notice
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      12-07-2021, 11:32 AM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Here's the quick update: 477whp & 536wftlbs with the TTE460!

Overall we're hitting the same peak torque amount as the Dinan 200rpm earlier, and adding another 30wftlbs only 150rpm or so later--that's what we mean by fast spool!

Peak power is 35whp more than the Dinan, altho, we're holding almost 450whp to redline, whereas the Dinan is 400-410whp to 6600rpm and then drops significantly--we're looking at 50-75whp gain above 6k. Look at the area under the curve gain, esp in the upper RPMs!

We're shifting the curve left, right, and up with the TTE.

Lastly, I was chatting with the dyno tech today and he said exactly what I figured out without me prompting him--they've calibrated their Dynojet to read about ~10whp lower than others to be more in line with a Mustang. I estimated 7-9whp difference on theirs vs other Dynojet's I've been on. So, pretty happy with 477whp on their Dynojet.

Loving this TTE setup with plenty of power and fast spool! Versus a PS2 on this map, I'm trading 25whp with torque/spool coming on 1000-RPM sooner: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1766028 I'll take that trade!

Daleb SeanWRT
Awesome stuff! Thanks for sharing. Can’t wait to hear your review on the track with the new setup.
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      12-08-2021, 09:34 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Here's the quick update: 477whp & 536wftlbs with the TTE460!

Overall we're hitting the same peak torque amount as the Dinan 200rpm earlier, and adding another 30wftlbs only 150rpm or so later--that's what we mean by fast spool!

Peak power is 35whp more than the Dinan, altho, we're holding almost 450whp to redline, whereas the Dinan is 400-410whp to 6600rpm and then drops significantly--we're looking at 50-75whp gain above 6k. Look at the area under the curve gain, esp in the upper RPMs! We're shifting the curve left, right, and up with the TTE.

Lastly, I was chatting with the dyno tech today and he said exactly what I figured out without me prompting him--they've calibrated their Dynojet to read about ~10whp lower than others to be more in line with a Mustang. I estimated 7-9whp difference on theirs vs other Dynojet's I've been on. So, pretty happy with 477whp on their Dynojet.

Loving this TTE setup with plenty of power and fast spool! Versus a PS2 on this map, I'm trading 25whp with torque/spool coming on 1000-RPM sooner: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1766028 I'll take that trade!
Congrats Zack! All work out and even more.

A few observations and thoughts:

1. On the surface, it's a peak to peak 25whp gain throughout. But look closely the gain from 6k point on is a whopping 50-60whp! on the same map…

2. The power & torque seems to fall from 5k7 point, leading to the thinking that even stg2 turbo run out of breath the same way stg1 turbo does. Actually that's not the case. The reason for the "falling" is the boost control strategy - BM3 calibrates to not allow overboost up top, which forces boost dumping at 5k5 to under the target by 1~1.5psi until redline. As mentioned in #1, the power difference goes from 25whp at 2k5-6k, to 50+whp at 6k~7k, a clear indication of flowing capacity.

3. A follow up question to #2 would be "why does not the PS2 turbo show such dip at 5k7?"
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1766028
Because
1) First of all, ps2 also dips from 5k7 if you pay attention. Different car, different turbos and different supporting mods makes different flow curve, and wastegate control also plays a part. Clearly the ps2 spools more slowly and overboosts less at middle range, so it dips less when dumping boost. The TTE boost rushes more aggressively early on and over boosts more. The PS2 and TTE shows almost the same torque - only TTE spools quicker and bounce off earlier at below 3k and PS2 at after 3k5. They're making exactly the same 450lb at 5k5 when stably flowing. The PS2 is obviously the bigger turbo and need a little less boost to get same torque.
2) The PS2 was tested with 8hp automatic and probably on 6th gear, which is longer than 5th of M2's DCT. At higher gear, boost can get closer to target (at top end), which offset the "dip" effect.

4. TTE is by far the best turbo under 500whp.
I wouldn't be surprised the N55 gets 1000whp one day if someone try hard enough, and I will not be amazed.
However, this one, 470+whp with stock spool (S55 Stage1 equivalent with faster response) is on a different level of power build for the platform.
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      12-09-2021, 03:20 PM   #389
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Hi Sean,

My apologies to ZM2, I don't mean to steer the thread off-course so if it's preferred that this question be asked elsewhere then I'm happy to do so (Nothingman's Turbo thread?).

I'd like to get Sean's opinion as to what he thinks is the better turbo option for someone looking to achieve 450-500 whp on 93 octane alone (with added fuelling/support mods)? It seems that the field of proven/reputable options is dominated by either the TTE 460 or the Borg Warner EFR 7670 (does the cast exhaust manifold of the 7670 tilt the answer in its favour, or is it not a big enough factor at these power levels?).

Best regards (and congrats to ZM2 on his awesome build journey!).
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      12-09-2021, 04:24 PM   #390
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Powerband looks pretty good, but do you track the car on this tune? I would tune down the torque (does BM3 have torque reduction?) and rev that out!
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      12-09-2021, 04:39 PM   #391
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Powerband looks pretty good, but do you track the car on this tune? I would tune down the torque (does BM3 have torque reduction?) and rev that out!
Hey, haven't tracked it yet b/c just got it on a few weeks back.

The general idea is even though it's more power, the turbo is running more efficiently and will produce less heat and be more stable on track. We'll see if that's the case. If not, I'll just flash down to the Stg 2 E30 map and keep the higher Emix in the tank to help keep things stable and cool.

The torque isn't too much of a concern on track since RPMs are generally >5k. If I stop light or drag raced, that would be a different story. For now, I just shred rear tires around town and work on my car control.
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      12-09-2021, 05:22 PM   #392
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Final question - is the flex fuel map, or straight E30? I thought you (or someone else) discovered that the FF map offers more timing?
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      12-09-2021, 07:44 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalM2 View Post
Hi Sean,

My apologies to ZM2, I don't mean to steer the thread off-course so if it's preferred that this question be asked elsewhere then I'm happy to do so (Nothingman's Turbo thread?).

I'd like to get Sean's opinion as to what he thinks is the better turbo option for someone looking to achieve 450-500 whp on 93 octane alone (with added fuelling/support mods)? It seems that the field of proven/reputable options is dominated by either the TTE 460 or the Borg Warner EFR 7670 (does the cast exhaust manifold of the 7670 tilt the answer in its favour, or is it not a big enough factor at these power levels?).

Best regards (and congrats to ZM2 on his awesome build journey!).
With hybrid turbo, it's difficult and dangerous to shoot for 450+whp on 93. Even though it's achievable with IAT below 50F, you don't want to stay on that map without octane booster, ethanol or methanol, which defeat the 93OCT purpose.

I myself stick to RON98 (US 93AKI) and stop at 430whp@17-18psi, on GP500 turbo (TTE550 equivalent). There is 1psi or so left in the octane, but I'll leave it and be not obsessed with the 10-15whp difference.

The EFR turbo is a different story because of the less restrictive casting manifold which lowers octane requirement. It's obviously the only option for you.
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      12-09-2021, 07:56 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Final question - is the flex fuel map, or straight E30? I thought you (or someone else) discovered that the FF map offers more timing?
I was waiting for this question!

I did two runs on Stg 2+ E30 and then LiveAdjusted to E65 and did two more. The result:

-All four runs were within 3whp and 3wftlbs of each other. Now that's some consistency! I did change the chart in my post to include another TTE run with spool 100rpm sooner and better held redline, just a tiny bit less power.
-However, that's unexpected if LiveAdjusting to essentially add more timing to get more power.

When I looked at the logs b/n all four runs, there was no additional timing added, all peaked at 14.5. The car was getting warmer after each run, but the IAT increase was only 5-10F from first to last run, so I don't think that changed anything.

If I had to guess, LiveAdjusting on the dyno doesn't work as the car probably needs to adapt. Maybe running the new PTF FlexFuel sensor and adding more ethanol would end up providing more power after the car/tune adapts, but this exercise showed me to simply run the Stg 2+ E30 OTS map with an E40-50 mix and be done with it and not worry about FlexFuel and higher Emixes.

I originally thought the Emix sensor would be great, but it's not clear to me that running the Stg 2+ multimap and then filling up with 93 octane actually works by scaling the 2+ tune all the way back to E10, or if you still have to map switch to Stg 2 93?

Taking these two things into account, from what I've seen there's no huge power gain running the Multimap and a higher Emix and no real convenience gain if the 2+ Multimap won't scale back to E10, so why use it? My dataset may be incomplete, tho.

Last edited by ZM2; 12-09-2021 at 09:03 PM..
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      12-09-2021, 07:58 PM   #395
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Hi Sean,

My apologies to ZM2, I don't mean to steer the thread off-course so if it's preferred that this question be asked elsewhere then I'm happy to do so (Nothingman's Turbo thread?).

I'd like to get Sean's opinion as to what he thinks is the better turbo option for someone looking to achieve 450-500 whp on 93 octane alone (with added fuelling/support mods)? It seems that the field of proven/reputable options is dominated by either the TTE 460 or the Borg Warner EFR 7670 (does the cast exhaust manifold of the 7670 tilt the answer in its favour, or is it not a big enough factor at these power levels?).

Best regards (and congrats to ZM2 on his awesome build journey!).
To reiterate SeanWRT's point, I've only seen stable PS2 93 octane setups making 440whp in the summertime when IATs are higher.

I was at that dyno session with nothingman. It was pretty funny both of us rolling up in our German M2's to the closest Dynojet for both of us, which was mostly an American big block hotrod shop. Nothing against that, my first cars were all American big blocks, but at least the Dynojet I go to now is a VAG shop and they like German cars.

When the dyno tech was prepping my car and did a couple test runs (before I went back to tell them how to put the car in dyno mode), one of the VW customers heard my car and said, "Man, that sounds like a BMW. Who's car is that, sounds great!" The German car guys tend to at least get along with each other. And they had a couple of boosted R8's there that would have smashed my car to pieces in a straight line.

Last edited by ZM2; 12-09-2021 at 08:15 PM..
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      12-09-2021, 09:10 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
To reiterate SeanWRT's point, I've only seen stable PS2 93 octane setups making 440whp in the summertime when IATs are higher.
That'd be on std correction, probably shows a 1.05+ factor. The dynojet wouldn't show lower reading just because the tested sample makes less power to difficult ambient condition. Sometimes it shows higher reading because of duplicated correction, from its calibration AND from BMW engine calibration.

For example, the S55, notoriously known for huge tuning headroom, logs 15psi peak under 80f of IAT. But, on track in summer, it can approach close to 20. And if octane supports well enough, they make the same power to ground. If you dyno them, the summer car will show noticeably more power corrected to STD.

However, if the octane struggles, timing all over the place when boosting 20, the engine loses power and backs off boost. That's when dynojet correction helps. But that's not going to be enough. Dynojet correction was engineered to offset air density difference for naturally aspirated engine which lacks boost control capability to correct for air mass loss. A timing adjusted turbocharged engine loses more than dynojet is programmed to correct for.

Octane limit is the most dangerous thing to have in tuning, period. It can directly break internals. Turbo, hpfp & etc, none of them come close. Not really recommended to play around it.
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