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BMW M2 Forum > M2 vs... > Wait, whaaat!? A Civic Type-R is faster than a BMW M2 around the Nürburgring?!?

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      03-08-2019, 03:36 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by ecs34 View Post
Been stalking these forums for a while now, and signed up just to say that, if ridiculous looks are preclusive, then the Subaru STI would have never become a popular car. I think what Honda is offering for just $35k is pretty amazing considering you typically have to pay alot more for new and fun.

That is all. Carry on.
Aside from the wing, the WRX STI is a pretty good looking car. The new Civic, in any trim, is way too big for a pocket rocket. Also, there's too much Far East design language in the Type R for my taste.
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      03-09-2019, 01:45 AM   #90
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But you do realize that most people see beamers as "look at me" cars, right?

I guess my attitude is a little different. I'm in my early 30's and couldn't care less if my car looks like a bat mobile of sorts. But I work in tech and not sales. I know that for some people the car they drive sort of bleeds into their work since their outward appearance matters more.
In this back and forth, yada yada, about who set the fastest time at the Nurburgring your post is the most intelligent so far.

You are absolutely right. BMW is a “look at me” car. They are damn good looking too. Aerodynamic, sleek, beautiful lines with an aggressive stance. Kinda like an athlete wearing an Armani suit about to run the 100m dash.

The Type R is something out of “Wacky Races” that Dastardly and Muttley would ride in with missile launchers and oil slick at their disposal. Just to let you know I absolutely love that show.

One thing that you were keen to point out is there are consumers ( drivers ) out there who are concerned about their outward appearance. Most people outside Japan need their cars to drive to work.

The thing I like about the Type R is that it’s styling is a break away from the norm. I believe the individual that buys a Type R ( especially the FK8 ) doesn’t give one s%$# what people think of the driver or his car. That individual is too busy having fun.

I, like many other FK8 owners, want separation from company and private life. If you judge a book by it’s cover, shame on you. You would be amiss if you thought the CTR was just a teenage racing machine. It is super practical and Honda would just blow you away with that. Forget where I saw it but somebody put a 60in TV in the back. Dustin Williams loaded that boot area up with 19in wheels and tires. They call that thing the FWD Nurburgring champ?

To each his own but I think you should never buy a car that suits the expectations of those who view you. It’s just too much money and it’s supposed to be your car. On the other hand, it’s nice that BMWs look so damn formal that they fit any anywhere.
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      03-09-2019, 11:42 AM   #91
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Bold statement or not, it's an ugly monstrosity of a car... While I love cars that perform well (and there's no doubt that it does), I also like cars that are visually appealing, which the Type R is not in any way shape or form.
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      03-09-2019, 12:27 PM   #92
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Each to their own but for me personally it's the FWD that kills the fun for me.

I'm doing driftdays 3-4 times a year since >10 years and I just love front the engine rwd+ lsd. It's playful every time. FWD been there done that when i was in my 20s, lift oversteer on ramps and the lot. Not fun anymore sorry.

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      05-05-2019, 01:51 PM   #93
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Exactly. I always said, if you don't have money for BMW, buy Honda. They have great engineers and always had passion to drivers cars.

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What's wrong with Honda? I drive a Honda Fit when the weather is crap. It fits just fine next to the BMW M2 and the Porsche Macan!
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      05-05-2019, 04:27 PM   #94
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Exactly. I always said, if you don't have money for BMW, buy Honda. They have great engineers and always had passion to drivers cars.
Hmm, I guess you never imagine that someone who has money ( in his right mind ) would choose a Honda over a BMW. Got some bad news buddy. After clicking all the options boxes, plus all the aftermarket custom mods = A Honda cost more than a BMW.

Perhaps you should offer the opposite side of this debate. With all the money you are going to spend on a Honda you should just go out and buy a BMW. Save the rest of your money. That’s more of a victory.
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      05-06-2019, 03:45 PM   #95
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Frankly my S2000 was far more engaging to drive than any BMW I've owned, M2C included.
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      05-06-2019, 04:14 PM   #96
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Frankly my S2000 was far more engaging to drive than any BMW I've owned, M2C included.
Different era of cars as Honda could not build that car today.
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      05-07-2019, 11:45 AM   #97
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Different era of cars as Honda could not build that car today.
Sadly, you are correct.
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      05-08-2019, 06:41 AM   #98
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Not my cup of tea at all but it’s an impressive vehicle.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/honda-...on-121324.html

That is moving!

Best I’ve got around there is a 2:30.6 in my M4. That was full on. Albeit in the safety of Gran Turismo.
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      06-03-2019, 03:32 PM   #99
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Ok, I can admit that I'm a little annoyed that a car that is far cheaper may be (at least by some metrics) as fast or faster than my M2C. I can admit that my ego might cause me to feel defensive or to make some disparaging comments under my breath when I see a CTR on the street. I think that's a perfectly normal reaction. The money spent for the M2C is not insignificant so it's normal to feel defensive on that expenditure.

Still, the CTR is not for me but I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone who jumps at that price to performance proposition that Honda has presented.
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      06-03-2019, 03:52 PM   #100
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It's a really good car and an impressive feat from Honda as they have managed to mask the inherent weaknesses of FWD and create a car that performs much better than it should. At the end of the day it's still a FWD car based on a Civic so while I respect what it can do on a track it's simply not the setup I want in a daily driver at this stage of my life.
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      06-03-2019, 06:40 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggripper View Post
Ok, I can admit that I'm a little annoyed that a car that is far cheaper may be (at least by some metrics) as fast or faster than my M2C. I can admit that my ego might cause me to feel defensive or to make some disparaging comments under my breath when I see a CTR on the street. I think that's a perfectly normal reaction. The money spent for the M2C is not insignificant so it's normal to feel defensive on that expenditure.

Still, the CTR is not for me but I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone who jumps at that price to performance proposition that Honda has presented.
While definitely a capable car, that car was track prepped and didn't run in stock form. A track prepped M2C would beat it I would imagine, as it has on almost every other track in the world.
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      06-03-2019, 09:35 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggripper View Post
Ok, I can admit that I'm a little annoyed that a car that is far cheaper may be (at least by some metrics) as fast or faster than my M2C. I can admit that my ego might cause me to feel defensive or to make some disparaging comments under my breath when I see a CTR on the street. I think that's a perfectly normal reaction. The money spent for the M2C is not insignificant so it's normal to feel defensive on that expenditure.

Still, the CTR is not for me but I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone who jumps at that price to performance proposition that Honda has presented.
While definitely a capable car, that car was track prepped and didn't run in stock form. A track prepped M2C would beat it I would imagine, as it has on almost every other track in the world.
You may well be right. That's not my point though.

Even if it's only faster by way of track prepping, it's still a car that is threatening to an M2C owner because it's a performance bargain in what is car that is capable of at least 80% of the M2Cs performance at a fraction of the price. People might also feel threatened by the fact that it's a critical darling. However, one could also argue that the M2C offers a shit ton of bang for the buck and is also a critical darling.
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      06-03-2019, 10:36 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggripper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggripper View Post
Ok, I can admit that I'm a little annoyed that a car that is far cheaper may be (at least by some metrics) as fast or faster than my M2C. I can admit that my ego might cause me to feel defensive or to make some disparaging comments under my breath when I see a CTR on the street. I think that's a perfectly normal reaction. The money spent for the M2C is not insignificant so it's normal to feel defensive on that expenditure.

Still, the CTR is not for me but I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone who jumps at that price to performance proposition that Honda has presented.
While definitely a capable car, that car was track prepped and didn't run in stock form. A track prepped M2C would beat it I would imagine, as it has on almost every other track in the world.
You may well be right. That's not my point though.

Even if it's only faster by way of track prepping, it's still a car that is threatening to an M2C owner because it's a performance bargain in what is car that is capable of at least 80% of the M2Cs performance at a fraction of the price. People might also feel threatened by the fact that it's a critical darling. However, one could also argue that the M2C offers a shit ton of bang for the buck and is also a critical darling.
My first 5 words were "while definitely a capable car"......
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      06-04-2019, 09:15 PM   #104
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Car and Driver Lightning Lap at Virginia International Raceway

Held every year since 2006.

Lightning Lap Results 2006 to 2018: Every Car, Every Lap Time

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

BMW M2 (2016), 301.9 seconds, Lightning Lap #10 (2016)

Honda Civic Type R (2018), 303.9 seconds, Lightning Lap #12 (2018)

Unmodified production cars on original equipment tires.

I expect the M2 Competition will be tested in the 2019 Lightning Lap.
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      06-05-2019, 06:06 AM   #105
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I've run across a few Civic Type R's on the track in the last few months that I have started tracking. Despite their looks (just not for me...) I think its awesome that a manufacturer builds a car with this much performance at this price point. So I have been excited to see what they can do when I've seen them - but unfortunately somewhat let down each time. None of them that I have come across have had much pace on the track. This could certainly be anything legit like the drivers just not wanting to push that hard or something else - just saying it would be cool to see one get thrown around the track like the numbers say they can be.

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Originally Posted by biggripper View Post
You may well be right. That's not my point though.

Even if it's only faster by way of track prepping, it's still a car that is threatening to an M2C owner because it's a performance bargain in what is car that is capable of at least 80% of the M2Cs performance at a fraction of the price. People might also feel threatened by the fact that it's a critical darling. However, one could also argue that the M2C offers a shit ton of bang for the buck and is also a critical darling.
To me it is all in what you are comparing. If it is just pure numbers on paper then sure the civic is threatening due it's price point. But from a driving experience standpoint? I certainly could be wrong but I just don't see the CTR coming close to matching a M2C here either on the track or the street. How you get to those numbers is just as important for me - I want to get there with the biggest goofiest grin on my face & that is where M cars shine for me
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      06-05-2019, 08:18 AM   #106
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The Civic Type R is an overachiever. It's a Civic that is better than any Civic has a right to be but a lot of fans of the car seem to think that enthusiasts should be in awe and lust for it. It doesn't work that way as while it ticks boxes in some performance categories it falls short in several other categories such as styling, FWD, build quality, tech, etc.
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      06-05-2019, 10:20 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
I've run across a few Civic Type R's on the track in the last few months that I have started tracking. Despite their looks (just not for me...) I think its awesome that a manufacturer builds a car with this much performance at this price point. So I have been excited to see what they can do when I've seen them - but unfortunately somewhat let down each time. None of them that I have come across have had much pace on the track. This could certainly be anything legit like the drivers just not wanting to push that hard or something else - just saying it would be cool to see one get thrown around the track like the numbers say they can be.



To me it is all in what you are comparing. If it is just pure numbers on paper then sure the civic is threatening due it's price point. But from a driving experience standpoint? I certainly could be wrong but I just don't see the CTR coming close to matching a M2C here either on the track or the street. How you get to those numbers is just as important for me - I want to get there with the biggest goofiest grin on my face & that is where M cars shine for me
It's definitely the drivers. I've seen a bunch at Thunderhill and in the right hands, they are insanely capable for being FWD. They are definitely punching above their weight class. I was blown away by the pace a few of them were carrying.
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      06-05-2019, 08:49 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
I've run across a few Civic Type R's on the track in the last few months that I have started tracking. Despite their looks (just not for me...) I think its awesome that a manufacturer builds a car with this much performance at this price point. So I have been excited to see what they can do when I've seen them - but unfortunately somewhat let down each time. None of them that I have come across have had much pace on the track. This could certainly be anything legit like the drivers just not wanting to push that hard or something else - just saying it would be cool to see one get thrown around the track like the numbers say they can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggripper View Post
You may well be right. That's not my point though.

Even if it's only faster by way of track prepping, it's still a car that is threatening to an M2C owner because it's a performance bargain in what is car that is capable of at least 80% of the M2Cs performance at a fraction of the price. People might also feel threatened by the fact that it's a critical darling. However, one could also argue that the M2C offers a shit ton of bang for the buck and is also a critical darling.
To me it is all in what you are comparing. If it is just pure numbers on paper then sure the civic is threatening due it's price point. But from a driving experience standpoint? I certainly could be wrong but I just don't see the CTR coming close to matching a M2C here either on the track or the street. How you get to those numbers is just as important for me - I want to get there with the biggest goofiest grin on my face & that is where M cars shine for me
I hear you. I don't care how well it performs, for me the CTR can't match the many things, tangible and intangible, that make the M2C so great. But to each his/her own I fully realize a CTR owner may feel the same about the CTR.
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      06-06-2019, 12:45 PM   #109
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It's definitely the drivers. I've seen a bunch at Thunderhill and in the right hands, they are insanely capable for being FWD. They are definitely punching above their weight class. I was blown away by the pace a few of them were carrying.
That's good to hear - figured it was something like that. Really would like to see one getting pushed on the track - haven't seen much good Honda Civic action since the original Fast and the Furious.

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Originally Posted by biggripper View Post
I hear you. I don't care how well it performs, for me the CTR can't match the many things, tangible and intangible, that make the M2C so great. But to each his/her own I fully realize a CTR owner may feel the same about the CTR.
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      06-09-2019, 11:29 AM   #110
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M2C vs typeR lap times



INTA (Spain)














M2C is faster by far
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