[Wharf Rat]

Originally Posted by stylinexpat

My dealer wants $380 for the Porsche Macan GTS. Not cheap at Dealership these days if you wish fo change every 5000 miles. Every 3 months it would need an oil change. So roughly $130 per month for oil change. Then you get tires once a year at $1600 take or give which comes out to anther $130 per month. Add $120 per week fuel and you have about $480 per month for fuel. Insurance is about $130 per month also.$800-900 per month before car payment and car wash ?Car expenses add up quickly.

Wow... $380 for just oil & filter? Unless they are having to move the motor to change oil that's ridiculous, obscene & just plain gouging.
I hope they are at least buying you dinner first.

[//M]

Originally Posted by Wharf Rat

Wow... $380 for just oil & filter? Unless they are having to move the motor to change oil that's ridiculous, obscene & just plain gouging.
I hope they are at least buying you dinner first.

+1 that's ridiculous

[DSTR]

Oil engineering continues to surpass owner logic. There is so much wasted oil here LOL. The oil works well to last. No need to change unless you are actually in a SEVERE schedule use mode. BMW here does not have a yard full of blown M2 motors due to oil changes at recommended intervals. 3000 miles change is a major waste of time and oil.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Oil engineering continues to surpass owner logic. There is so much wasted oil here LOL. The oil works well to last. No need to change unless you are actually in a SEVERE schedule use mode. BMW here does not have a yard full of blown M2 motors due to oil changes at recommended intervals. 3000 miles change is a major waste of time and oil.

Yeah but how are those motors going to be at over 100k miles? I agree 3000 with modern synthetics seems obviously wasteful but 10-12k between changes may not be the best choice for long term ownership.

[V.Smurf]

Originally Posted by akkando

10-12k between changes may not be the best choice for long term ownership.

I intend to hang onto my M2 for the long term, so my plan is for yearly oil changes, like I do on my X6 (it has the 4.4L V8 Twin Turbo). I get that car serviced by a BMW specialist (not the dealer) and they advise yearly oil changes on high performance BMW engines.

Originally Posted by Prodigy.

I pay for an additional oil change in between, i have 5 yrs free servicing but i don't like leaving it so long between the scheduled changes.

Ditto: that's exactly my scenario - the scheduled 2 years between oil changes seems like quite a long period of time. And I'm not keen on the BMW dealer doing this as I've had wildly erratic quality from their servicing.

Originally Posted by DSTR

Oil engineering continues to surpass owner logic. There is so much wasted oil here LOL. The oil works well to last. No need to change unless you are actually in a SEVERE schedule use mode.

While I agree with you on how oil lasts, I view the yearly oil changes as somewhat like engine insurance. Also means that the mechanic can catch any issues earlier if they are starting to develop

[Nezil]

I feel like I've got to speak up here, not because I'm a scientist, but I've spent most of my life in the UK, and have lived in the US for the last 6 years, and there seems to be a significant difference of opinion between Europe and the US.

I'll give examples of two different cars that I owned in the UK, and three cars that I've owned in the US.

UK Cars:

• 1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 3.0 NA V6 ~200 HP. This car had a recommended oil change interval of 20,000 miles or 2 years, whichever came first. I ended up changing at milage, roughly every 15 to 18 months, and I sold the car with 170,000 miles and it ran perfectly, burned no oil, and had no significant issues whatsoever. Oil change service cost around £200 if I remember correctly. At the time that was nearly $400, but the exchange rate is not so bad today.
• 2003 Honda S2000 - 2.0 NA I4 ~240HP. This car had a recommended oil change interval of 12,000 miles or 1 year, whichever came first. I ended up changing annually, because it was a second car. I took this car with me to Korea when I lived there from 2008 ~ 2011 and then shipped it back to the UK when I left. I ended up selling to my father, because I moved to the US. This car is very high revving, and consumes a fair amount of oil in normal use anyway, but has always been within spec and is now at around 75,000 miles. An oil change services was around £250 I think, $500 at the time.

US Cars:

• 2012 Jaguar XF - 5.0 NA V8 ~385HP. I just sold this car at 36,000 miles, and I had no issues with it whatsoever. Its service interval was 15,000 miles / 1 year. Service cost was ridiculous once it was out of the inclusive program; about $1,000 every 12 months, more than $500 for the oil and filter change.
• 2016 Honda Pilot - 3.0 NA V6 ~250HP. This is my wife's car. The service interval is variable, but has been roughly every 8,000miles on a very low strung engine. Having said that a service including an oil change and other things, cost less than $150, so it's really very cheap; they cannot be using particularly good oil though, given the price.
• 2018 BMW M2 - 3.0 Turbo I6 ~350HP. New to me, and ~10,000 miles / 1 year. I've no idea how much the servicing will be after 3 years, hopefully cheaper than the Jaguar!

In the UK, cars have been having service intervals much longer than 10,000 miles and even up to 2 years for quite a long time. I believe there are a few reasons for this

1. Synthetic oil has been used for many years, even on regular family cars - changing oil does not cost $50 like it seems to be advertised for everywhere here, even for a Honda Accord!
2. European regular fuel octane rating is slightly higher than US premium grade (Yes, I do know about AKI vs MON/RON)
3. European fuel has had far higher detergent levels that US for many years
4. Going to the track is not as popular as it is in the US
5. Modifying cars is quite rare, because insurance is killer if you do

As I said at the start of my post, I'm not a scientist, but I do see both sides of the story. Europeans will probably think US posters are crazy for suggesting 5,000 mile oil changes, and US posters will think I'm crazy for doing changes at 18 months and 20,000 miles on my 406 Coupé. Maybe we're both correct?

I'm personally going to be sticking to the 1 year / 10,000mile interval on my car, and I'm confident that it will be fine. If I track the car, or modify it, I'll change at 5,000, but I probably won't do that until after the warranty expires... probably

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by akkando

Yeah but how are those motors going to be at over 100k miles? I agree 3000 with modern synthetics seems obviously wasteful but 10-12k between changes may not be the best choice for long term ownership.

The oil will last and more than enough research has been done. The sceptical will not care and refuse to believe the science they deny yet believe in the science that developed the engine in the first place.

The caveat is use and severity. I have over 80,000km's on my M235i in all types of conditions except track. It uses very very little oil between changes per the schedule. It uses less than a liter. This since the first day of ownership now approaching 4 years..

Owners will do what they like. Science not with-standing of course.

[boostm3]

Its a very personal matter.. I personally dont feel more frequent is necessary.. Why not send a sample off to Blackstone for oil analysis? With synthetic, I used to do that and never found it necessary to increase the frequency.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/free-test-kits.php

[bobert]

Originally Posted by Nezil

2018 BMW M2 - 3.0 Turbo I6 ~350HP. New to me, and ~10,000 miles / 1 year. I've no idea how much the servicing will be after 3 years, hopefully cheaper than the Jaguar!

I'm personally going to be sticking to the 1 year / 10,000mile interval on my car, and I'm confident that it will be fine. If I track the car, or modify it, I'll change at 5,000, but I probably won't do that until after the warranty expires... probably

Time to take your M2 in for service - it's missing 15 hp!

Interesting perspective from life on both sides of the pond. I'll be sticking with annual service for my M2 as well.

[Pyrat 2]

I love oil related threads because they always have lots of theories on what is best. I will stay away from that other than to say I DIY more frequently than recommended. In my mind cheap insurance. Total cost is roughly $35 if you DIY. I don't reset the oil indicator on DIY so then I get the dealer change as part of warranty maintenance.

[//M]

I just don't like the look of dirty oil, I know that viscosity and additive wise it's still good but once the oil appears dark brown it bothers me and I feel like it's time to get all that carbon and crap out of the motor. Also BMW lifters (valvetrain) can get very noisy, not going over 3k rpm until it's 160F+ and changing the oil at 5k or a little less has helped this on my cars and my friends.

3k is excessive and changing the oil every year should only be necessary if you can't get the oil hot enough to evaporate the water, which we all should be able to do in our M cars.

YMMV though. I split the BMW changes and it feels like good insurance to me. Keep in mind the turbo is the real item to be worried about with wear and breakdown as it is the hottest component and the fastest spinning by far. 50k+ RPM shaft speeds and that's conservative.

[Nezil]

Another thing to think about, with all this talk about turbos, oil and regional differences, is that in Europe, the vast majority of cars sold have been diesel powered for over a decade. All diesel cars are TURBO diesel and I don't think it's an exaggeration at all to say that most of the advancements in turbo technology for passenger cars have been driven by this.

Early European turbo gasoline cars car the Renault 5 GT Turbo and the Ford Escort RS Turbo came before the turbo diesel trend, and required more care and were less reliable.

This turbo diesel trend put turbo engines in the hands of non enthusiasts, who simply wouldn't know about special care required, so the special care has to be engineered out.

Whilst it's certainly true that an M car is in a higher state of tune than a typical European turbo diesel, the benefits of the turbo development for turbo diesels make our engines very reliable.

Our 10k mile oil changes are still pretty short compared to European cars, including Turbo diesels and the more recent upcoming trend of low powered tiny engine turbo gasoline cars. Our intervals are shorter because our engines are tuned more.

It really depends what your basis of comparison is... Compared to most European cars of every type, our service interval is short. Compared to the historical change interval for US and Asian US only models, our service intervals seem long.

Don't forget that European and Asian brands have a history of having models that only exist in the US, or putting significantly different engines into US sold cars. The US M2 engine however is 99% the same as the European one.

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by Pyrat 2

I love oil related threads because they always have lots of theories on what is best. I will stay away from that other than to say I DIY more frequently than recommended. In my mind cheap insurance. Total cost is roughly $35 if you DIY. I don't reset the oil indicator on DIY so then I get the dealer change as part of warranty maintenance.

What kind of oil are you using to come up with that figure?

I just changed the oil in the X1(28i) yesterday and it cost me $55. That was at my friends cost who is a local independent. BMW 0W30 LL was $7.50 X 6 and the MANN filter kit was $10. The M2 takes 7 or 8 quarts and the cheapest I have seen BMW LL or Castrol is $9 on-line.

[pruettfan]

I have always followed the BMW schedule, I drove my 06 330i 225,000 miles and it is still driven 25k a year by the new owner and runs flawlessly. When the oil pan gasket and valve cover gaskets were changed at 200k inspections of the top and bottom ends of the engine (as far as I could see were flawless). Nearly all of the miles were highway and trips of 20-50 miles each way. I am doing the same with my M2. If I was doing track days or the car was doing a lot of short trips I might consider doing a slightly shorter interval but synthetic oils these days don't break down under normal conditions in less than 10,000 miles, in fact they are probably safe to go 15k. One can always make the argument that it can't hurt to change it more often than the 10k and that its cheap insurance to do it every 5k but then why not every 1k if were going to set arbitrary intervals?

Fact is the BMW engineers know a few things about the car they designed and despite the conspiracy theories that they are making the intervals longer to save a few bucks on the included maintenance there is no evidence I have found that their intervals are wrong. Having said all of that we should all do what we are comfortable with because our cars are a big investment. I would never buy an extended warranty, wheel and tire protection, lost key protection or any of that stuff either, not because I am cheap but because the math doesn't make sense to me but I am totally cool with folks that go that route because of their risk tolerance.
Sorry for the rant

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by Pyrat 2

I love oil related threads because they always have lots of theories on what is best. I will stay away from that other than to say I DIY more frequently than recommended. In my mind cheap insurance. Total cost is roughly $35 if you DIY. I don't reset the oil indicator on DIY so then I get the dealer change as part of warranty maintenance.

Lots of theories and everyone should do what they think is best. I don't know how you can DIY for 35 bucks though. I have yet to be able to do one for less than about 72 bucks. Still 72 bucks isn't a big deal.

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by akkando

Yeah but how are those motors going to be at over 100k miles? I agree 3000 with modern synthetics seems obviously wasteful but 10-12k between changes may not be the best choice for long term ownership.

Drove my 06 330i 225,000 miles doing BMW recommended intervals and it still is driven 25k a year and runs flawlessly. BMW isn't making these recommendations off the top of their heads. They have far more data than any of us and have changed the recommendations over the years so there is clearly work being done by them on a continual basis.

[Pyrat 2]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Lots of theories and everyone should do what they think is best. I don't know how you can DIY for 35 bucks though. I have yet to be able to do one for less than about 72 bucks. Still 72 bucks isn't a big deal.

5 quarts of LL01 is $23 at Walmart. Oil filter is about $7 or $8. Maybe it's a bit more than$35. Less than $40 though.

[carl44]

oil and oil change routine is like religion. everybody thinks theirs is the best but no one can prove it? carl

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by carl44

oil and oil change routine is like religion. everybody thinks theirs is the best but no one can prove it? carl

From now on I will be sending my old oil to the pope instead of blackstone.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by carl44

oil and oil change routine is like religion. everybody thinks theirs is the best but no one can prove it? carl

Literally the science has reported otherwise. Period.

[Razorback7]

I am all for staying ahead of game on oil changes. However, I have a current headache apparently unique to low mileage drivers. For a variety of reasons, including winter storage, I did not need 1200 mile M service until until last July, 10 months after getting my new M2 in September, 2016. Reportedly the service protocol stipulates that oil service indicator is NOT to be reset. So two months and 200 miles later, on my car's 1 year birthday, my car starts telling me it is time for an oil change. Then I get emails from dealer and BMW teleservice stating same. Then to cap it off a call last week from BMW teleservice. My dealer is 130 miles away, my car was just stored for winter and I don't need an oil change! I just find it annoying that this possibility is not anticipated and addressed through the system, and so the messages keep coming, even though I called dealer and BMW NA. Interesting the dealer said BMW would have paid for the oil change. I wii live with it and get free oil change in late spring, but still annoying. Maybe some will say do a reset but dealer said that would throw off other maintenance.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Razorback7

I am all for staying ahead of game on oil changes. However, I have a current headache apparently unique to low mileage drivers. For a variety of reasons, including winter storage, I did not need 1200 mile M service until until last July, 10 months after getting my new M2 in September, 2016. Reportedly the service protocol stipulates that oil service indicator is NOT to be reset. So two months and 200 miles later, on my car's 1 year birthday, my car starts telling me it is time for an oil change. Then I get emails from dealer and BMW teleservice stating same. Then to cap it off a call last week from BMW teleservice. My dealer is 130 miles away, my car was just stored for winter and I don't need an oil change! I just find it annoying that this possibility is not anticipated and addressed through the system, and so the messages keep coming, even though I called dealer and BMW NA. Interesting the dealer said BMW would have paid for the oil change. I wii live with it and get free oil change in late spring, but still annoying. Maybe some will say do a reset but dealer said that would throw off other maintenance.

You do 1400 miles a year?