[Kevin @ Integral Audio]

Originally Posted by chris719

Well, I appreciate the info and feedback since you tried it both ways, but I know that subjective sighted A/B tests are extremely prone to cognitive bias.

Oh this. This. This. Has been proven over and over, even "professional" listeners are influenced. We don't trust ourselves - we A/B/X test everything we do, as well as all of our research.

Regardless, both of these things are true - the amp is not the weak link, but changing it does have a greater impact than changing the speakers. The reason is the DSP eq being applied, not the rest of the amp. We've tried to make sense of the eq being applied across BMW/MINI, and just can't. There is no consistency across or even within vehicle models, and it's just bad. It appears to be algorithmic given how fine-grained the adjustments are, but the lack of consistency suggests it's not. Dunno. But we do know this: the simple model is that we hear/perceive volume, frequency response, and distortion, in that order (within reason). This is from the HIFI amp in the F22 (I don't have the HK measurements handy, but they are similar in magnitude):



This is the electrical output of the amp (blue is midrange, red is underseat woofer, orange is center channel). Note the Y-axis scale is 30dB(!) Those are very large changes being applied. Would be one thing if they were being applied in the right places, but everything we've found is that they are not. Anyway, bottom line is going from that to flat is a FAR greater change than the difference from one speaker to another.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Kevin @ Integral Audio

Regardless, both of these things are true - the amp is not the weak link, but changing it does have a greater impact than changing the speakers. The reason is the DSP eq being applied, not the rest of the amp. We've tried to make sense of the eq being applied across BMW/MINI, and just can't.

Thanks, yep, that makes sense. Those graphs aren't surprising from how broken the 2 series HK sounds. I am not even being a snob here, I find the HK to sound acceptable in the F10 5 series, for example.

Like you, I wonder how they get that result. You have to try to do that. If I didn't know any better I would guess they loaded the wrong coefficients for every filter.

[Mizono]

Was it difficult to mount the Dynaudio Esotec MW182 Woofer's in the rear shelf? Did it require a lot of custom work?

[Kevin @ Integral Audio]

Originally Posted by chris719

Like you, I wonder how they get that result. You have to try to do that. If I didn't know any better I would guess they loaded the wrong coefficients for every filter.

Having spent a LOT of time running thru all of this, I suspect the answer is that there is simply no organization-wide process for the measurement/tuning/setup/filter design/etc. I think the process is just ad hoc and different teams are working differently on each vehicle. That's just my guess. If it were simply loading the wrong filters I'd expect it to be isolated, but we see the same thing in other models, and we also don't see it consistently (i.e. your F10 5 series experience). I'd also expect it to get fixed - would be just a matter of a software update. But that hasn't happened. It's fine by me, if BMW ever gets this right it will shrink our market size

[RocketBoots]

Originally Posted by Mizono

Was it difficult to mount the Dynaudio Esotec MW182 Woofer's in the rear shelf? Did it require a lot of custom work?

It wasn't difficult, but it's definitely not plug/play. I have a decent amount of experience with installs, especially in BMW's, so I didn't think it was that bad. I didn't need to fabricate anything. I did have a custom mounting plate made (pretty thick Birch plywood).

[hybrid90]

Gonna revive this thread in the hope that my answer is a quick and easy one as I don't really want to get too in depth here since it's pretty much been covered for the most part and the question of amp vs speakers was addressed but I didn't really understand the answer (a bit too technical).

Background is that i came from an E46 ZHP Coupe w/ H/K system, then an E90 w/ Base System (really???) that I added an MS-8, Alpine amp and MB Quart BMW 200.3 (I think that was the model. the one that was designed specifically for a drop in on the BMWs). I had to do quite a bit of tuning to get that one right but it's well documented in the E90 Forum. Then I went to a '13 E92 335is w/ HiFi sytem. Wasn't great but did the job before I went to a '16 F30 340i w/ H/K system which wasn't mind blowing but it was def an upgrade and it checked all the boxes. So when I went to the M2, I was ecstatic that it had the H/K system until I realized that it isn't the same. So now...

In all fairness, I knew that the M2 would be louder (and I don't mind since the exhaust sound is intoxicating) and really, if I'm running a bit lower speed and turn the sound up, it's not bad, but I have to turn it WAY up (2/3-3/4 volume) so that makes me think that maybe I just need more power since my F30 never got higher than 1/2 volume but then that begs the question: is it just the system needs a more powerful amp, or is it becuase the M2 has four less speakers than the F30 (the two that would be in the rear door panels/quarter panels), or is it just the louder cabin? I'm thinking it would be much easier to change Amplifiers (looking at the Match 7 BMW since it's pretty much drop in), or would that not really fix the problem? I'm OK with the sound, but just want to be able to HEAR it at higher speeds, or if the windows are down.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

On a side note, I've noticed that the M2 has much less turbulence/wind noise with the windows down than my E90, E92 or F30 ever did. I just LOVE that since I do canyon runs on the weekends and windows down is almost a must!!

[ashmostro]

Its the dumb tuning of the factory dsp which is co located in the amp, which is why the general view that if you’re just going to do one thing, replace the amp with a Match UP7. If you can swing a little more, add in a monoblock amp and a true sub in the trunk. Without even touching any of the speakers, this can give you a system that can be tuned to sound better than most high end factory offerings (ie Burmester, etc.)

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

Its the dumb tuning of the factory dsp which is co located in the amp, which is why the general view that if you’re just going to do one thing, replace the amp with a Match UP7. If you can swing a little more, add in a monoblock amp and a true sub in the trunk. Without even touching any of the speakers, this can give you a system that can be tuned to sound better than most high end factory offerings (ie Burmester, etc.)

Exactly right, I didn’t realize with my earlier posts in this thread a long time back that DSP was in the amp not head unit.

Best bang for buck is Match UP7 and possibly installing your own crossover in the door because the tweeter has just a capacitor inline and not a sufficient high pass in my opinion.

[ashmostro]

If you're going to bother adding an additional order to the factory tweeter xover, you may as well replace the component set with one of the many drop in offerings from Eton, Match, etc.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

If you're going to bother adding an additional order to the factory tweeter xover, you may as well replace the component set with one of the many drop in offerings from Eton, Match, etc.

You could, but I'm not convinced most of the lower priced offerings are better than the factory drivers based on the specs I have seen. It needs to be a low Fs mid with good low frequency extension to carry down as low as possible given the limitations of the underseat 8".

[ashmostro]

I understand what you are saying but may I suggest a different approach that has worked REALLY well for me? Note that while I have purchased replacement speakers (Morel and Match subs) I haven't had time to install them yet, so the only net-new speaker is the JL 10W3 in the trunk.

That all said, I have my factory underseat woofers running from 65 Hz to 150 Hz, and the front stage takes over from there. Removing midbass responsibility from the front 4" drivers makes the resonant frequency spec irrelevant, and by choosing a still moderately non-directional cutoff of 150 Hz, the bass image is dead-on up front. Nothing gets pulled to the back, and the chest impact, as well as true sub-bass extension is impressive for the modest power levels and overall driver surface area.

This allows me to consider better midrange performers for the front stage (again, which I haven't yet installed) and is why I suggested paying more heed to a well-engineered component set if you're going to go to the trouble of cracking open the door cards and re-engineering the crossover without messing up phase, etc.

Just my opinion respectfully, of course.

-Ash

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

I understand what you are saying but may I suggest a different approach that has worked REALLY well for me? Note that while I have purchased replacement speakers (Morel and Match subs) I haven't had time to install them yet, so the only net-new speaker is the JL 10W3 in the trunk.

That all said, I have my factory underseat woofers running from 65 Hz to 150 Hz, and the front stage takes over from there. Removing midbass responsibility from the front 4" drivers makes the resonant frequency spec irrelevant, and by choosing a still moderately non-directional cutoff of 150 Hz, the bass image is dead-on up front. Nothing gets pulled to the back, and the chest impact, as well as true sub-bass extension is impressive for the modest power levels and overall driver surface area.

This allows me to consider better midrange performers for the front stage (again, which I haven't yet installed) and is why I suggested paying more heed to a well-engineered component set if you're going to go to the trouble of cracking open the door cards and re-engineering the crossover without messing up phase, etc.

Just my opinion respectfully, of course.

-Ash

All of that makes sense. You still need a pretty good 4" mid to get to 150 Hz with low distortion. Many aftermarket options will not. I like the Audiofrog GB40 although the price is absurd.