[Benef1cient]

Go to eleven and end up at sixes and sevens

[M2Nebula]

One of my favorite clips of all time. I could watch that movie every day and not get sick of it.

[BlacMacJac]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

So many people on this forum had to leave their home area to get an M2 initially .. If 30 miles across the DFW metroplex is too far .. the struggle must be real...

let me be more specific..

my desire to drive up Central Expressway (you're here in DFW, you understand), 30 miles, to have service at a Fiat dealership, for a brand that is famous for needing more than a normal number of trips for service - is just a bit too much for me.

but...

I will drive almost that same 30 miles up the ND Tollway to buy a M2(cs?) from a dealer like Classic that knows what a $60K+ purchase experience (and the service experience that comes with it) should be.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by N54

Can't they put the seats in from the M4 GTS or CS?
How expensive to engineer would that be?
Surely just a new mounting bracket?
And a carbon roof would only be about €1000?

I asked BMW Individual, almost begged them for it, and the answer was NO! Every option BMW Individual adds to your car gets a 10 year warranty and that means that if you want to put those kind of seats in your M2 it requires them to do testing, a lot of testing to support the 10 year warranty claim.

They do not even paint the silver surrounds black on certain small buttons in the cabin, because it would not last 10 years, and since every thing they do needs that 10 year warranty sticker they don't offer it or even consider doing it. I was like....

MR

[N54]

Originally Posted by MR.

I asked BMW Individual, almost begged them for it, and the answer was NO! Every option BMW Individual adds to your car gets a 10 year warranty and that means that if you want to put those kind of seats in your M2 it requires them to do testing, a lot of testing to support the 10 year warranty claim.

They do not even paint the silver surrounds black on certain small buttons in the cabin, because it would not last 10 years, and since every thing they do needs that 10 year warranty sticker they don't offer it or even consider doing it. I was like....

MR

Surely they won't leave the existing M2 seats in the CS/GTS?

They look rubbish

[MR.]

Originally Posted by N54

Surely they won't leave the existing M2 seats in the CS/GTS?

They look rubbish

I have a feeling they will... Let's not hope so, but the chances on this are not looking good. Again, you have to look at the balance between development, price and sales.

In the end, this might well be a similar story as the mirrors, but let's just keep our hopes up. That is the only thing we can do right now, just hope something happens with those seats.

MR

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by MR.

I have a feeling they will... Let's not hope so, but the chances on this are not looking good.
MR

BMW will leave them in the CS and GTS, they will just cut holes in them and tell us they are special. That is what they did on the M4GTS and CS. It will be the same crappy and cheap recipe.

Regardless, I am still #1 at my dealer to by the M2GTS if it comes out and I will buy it - if I end up not enjoying it on the track, I will sell it.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MR.

I have a feeling they will... Let's not hope so, but the chances on this are not looking good. Again, you have to look at the balance between development, price and sales.
In the end, this might well be a similar story as the mirrors, but let's just keep our hopes up. That is the only thing we can do right now, just hope something happens with those seats.
MR

Siding with MR on this one. Looks like the engine swap will be the highlight. The rest of the stage may be darker than expected. Keep hopes realistic to avoid disappointment. Don't take things for granted.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MR.

I asked BMW Individual, almost begged them for it, and the answer was NO! Every option BMW Individual adds to your car gets a 10 year warranty and that means that if you want to put those kind of seats in your M2 it requires them to do testing, a lot of testing to support the 10 year warranty claim.
They do not even paint the silver surrounds black on certain small buttons in the cabin, because it would not last 10 years, and since every thing they do needs that 10 year warranty sticker they don't offer it or even consider doing it. I was like....
MR

For the record: what BMW representatives said at SEMA 2015 in an interview about the (un)likelihood of M2 M Performance seats:

See here:

Q: Any chance we'll see M Performance Seats available for order?
A: As of now there is no M Performance Seat in the works. However, if there are pure racing seats that are not homologated for the US that would be available at some point in the future, we would explore the possibility of selling them only through Motorsport (racing) Centers. Anyone looking to purchase motorsport parts through an approved BMW Motorsport Parts Center (see link above) is required to sign a liability release waiver stating the parts cannot be installed by a BMW Center and the vehicle will be used for off-road use only.

See also here:

Q: Will M Performance seats be available for the M2?
A: We have no plans. In general, from the feedback on the market, we would only sell a few. The customer is better off going and buying Recaro, especially if they’re moving safety systems, like seatbelts.

But that's for the base M2. Let's wait and see what cat BMW M will let out of the bag for the M2 CS.

[norMcal]

There is a lot of talk about the CS being offered with a manual. Who am I trying to fool, this subject comes up on pretty much all new cars. I get it, a manual is just more involved, and what all the purist want. Also, resale value is usually higher, because less of them are offered that way. I get it, I am a die hard manual guy myself. My pride and joy is a pristine 6mt e46 M3 (considering an M2 as successor)

However, my DD is a dual clutch equipped turbo engine car. Both cars are a lot of fun to drive and for the longest time I could not put my finger on why I actually like the turbo/DSG as much as I do, since it is so vastly different and I never enjoyed automatic cars before.

It wasn't until I watched that silly Kiwi, Nick Murray, on YouTube and saw a comparison between his PDK, and a friends manual 911.
He pointed out something I never considered or realized (hard to believe it never occured to me in the 4 years driving such a car). I mean I knew that the DSG shifts quicker, that much was obvious. However, what Nick pointed out was that during up shifts on a turbo engine car, the DSG shifts gears so fast that the turbo is not losing any boost, because you never have to get off the throttle. Wear as with a manual, no matter how good you are, you will have to get off the throttle, drop the clutch, switch gears, release clutch and get back on the throttle, while the rpms drop, and more importantly the turbo boost goes away for a split second.

I'm sure some will argue that it is minor and there probably are already cars that have high tech features that somehow keep the boost up, but I still think this is a big factor to consider.
As much as I love the high revving N/A engine with a manual, there is a certain satisfaction going through the gears in peek torque range during acceleration, and never loosing any torque during up shifts. As a matter of fact what happens is that you really just shift at 3-4k and go through ALL the gears. And lets face it, with a manual high reeving n/a car, you can go through two gears, before you are approaching speeds that are not healthy to your freedom.

So to end the struggle of "should I even consider a car only offered with a DSG" I have come to the conclusion, if it is a turbo engine, I will go for a DSG, if N/A I will go for a manual. For example, M2 = DSG, 981 Cayman S = Manual.

Maybe that is also the thinking with many car manufactures not offering manuals on these turbo cars. We just witnessed that Porsche is offering the GT3 again with a manual again, after much complaining from purists, but then again the GT3 has a n/a engine.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by norMcal

There is a lot of talk about the CS being offered with a manual. Who am I trying to fool, this subject comes up on pretty much all new cars. I get it, a manual is just more involved, and what all the purist want. Also, resale value is usually higher, because less of them are offered that way. I get it, I am a die hard manual guy myself. My pride and joy is a pristine 6mt e46 M3 (considering an M2 as successor)

However, my DD is a dual clutch equipped turbo engine car. Both cars are a lot of fun to drive and for the longest time I could not put my finger on why I actually like the turbo/DSG as much as I do, since it is so vastly different and I never enjoyed automatic cars before.

It wasn't until I watched that silly Kiwi, Nick Murray, on YouTube and saw a comparison between his PDK, and a friends manual 911.
He pointed out something I never considered or realized (hard to believe it never occured to me in the 4 years driving such a car). I mean I knew that the DSG shifts quicker, that much was obvious. However, what Nick pointed out was that during up shifts on a turbo engine car, the DSG shifts gears so fast that the turbo is not losing any boost, because you never have to get off the throttle. Wear as with a manual, no matter how good you are, you will have to get off the throttle, drop the clutch, switch gears, release clutch and get back on the throttle, while the rpms drop, and more importantly the turbo boost goes away for a split second.

I'm sure some will argue that it is minor and there probably are already cars that have high tech features that somehow keep the boost up, but I still think this is a big factor to consider.
As much as I love the high revving N/A engine with a manual, there is a certain satisfaction going through the gears in peek torque range during acceleration, and never loosing any torque during up shifts. As a matter of fact what happens is that you really just shift at 3-4k and go through ALL the gears. And lets face it, with a manual high reeving n/a car, you can go through two gears, before you are approaching speeds that are not healthy to your freedom.

So to end the struggle of "should I even consider a car only offered with a DSG" I have come to the conclusion, if it is a turbo engine, I will go for a DSG, if N/A I will go for a manual. For example, M2 = DSG, 981 Cayman S = Manual.

Maybe that is also the thinking with many car manufactures not offering manuals on these turbo cars. We just witnessed that Porsche is offering the GT3 again with a manual again, after much complaining from purists, but then again the GT3 has a n/a engine.

How dare you!

[Gatte]

Was at the Nurburgring yesterday and today. Finally saw an M2 in LBB.

However, no M2 CS testing yesterday or today. Also was wet the whole time so no test mules.

[Advevo]

Originally Posted by akkando

How dare you!

He is right! With manual you loose some turbo pressure. I have driven both manual and dct! I know exactly the difference. But i still choose manual even with turbo cars!

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by akkando

How dare you!

Originally Posted by Advevo

He is right! With manual you loose some turbo pressure. I have driven both manual and dct! I know exactly the difference. But i still choose manual even with turbo cars!

Yep, sad but true. And to be honest, I was just trying to reason why a DSG was the better choice for a turbo car........ but better is not always what feels right.

Interesting side note. I was looking at the M2's currently available on cars.com and out of 34 cars listed for sale, 26 were manuals. That is surprising. Maybe the sellers were not loving that boost dropping during up shifts

[as7920]

Originally Posted by norMcal

....Interesting side note. I was looking at the M2's currently available on cars.com and out of 34 cars listed for sale, 26 were manuals. That is surprising. Maybe the sellers were not loving that boost dropping during up shifts

And as a direct contrast, on the UK Auto Trader site, of the 100 M2s for sale, 3 aren't M2s (lol) and 65 of the real M2s are DCT.

[mlust]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Interesting side note. I was looking at the M2's currently available on cars.com and out of 34 cars listed for sale, 26 were manuals. That is surprising. Maybe the sellers were not loving that boost dropping during up shifts

Car dealers don't always post correct info, so just by filtering out autos doesn't mean none will be listed after the filter is applied. I have seen many cars listed as manuals and click on the link, as I start going through the pictures, I can clearly see it is an automatic.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by as7920

And as a direct contrast, on the UK Auto Trader site, of the 100 M2s for sale, 3 aren't M2s (lol) and 65 of the real M2s are DCT.

I was joking about the owners selling off manuals.

Looks like the UK market is a bit more balanced in that regard. Never the less, it is surprising that there are so many manuals for sale. I though production was way more lopsided towards DSG. Anybody know the numbers? If it is, then it is surprising that so many manuals are being sold so quickly, because typically a manual would be a special order, as DSG seems to be the default factory option. And if you were to special order a car, you would not be as likely to sell that soon. Maybe I am reading too much in to it?

Originally Posted by mlust

Car dealers don't always post correct info, so just by filtering out autos doesn't mean none will be listed after the filter is applied. I have seen many cars listed as manuals and click on the link, as I start going through the pictures, I can clearly see it is an automatic.

I am aware of that, but did check many of them and there are far more manuals for sale. My original search was with a $60k price ceiling. Here is the same search w/o price limit. 49 of them for sale. Not going to count and check them all, but be my guest. Far more are 6mt.

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/search...stkTypId=28881

[akkando]

Originally Posted by norMcal

I was joking about the owners selling off manuals.

Looks like the UK market is a bit more balanced in that regard. Never the less, it is surprising that there are so many manuals for sale. I though production was way more lopsided towards DSG. Anybody know the numbers? If it is, then it is surprising that so many manuals are being sold so quickly, because typically a manual would be a special order, as DSG seems to be the default factory option. And if you were to special order a car, you would not be as likely to sell that soon. Maybe I am reading too much in to it?



I am aware of that, but did check many of them and there are far more manuals for sale. My original search was with a $60k price ceiling. Here is the same search w/o price limit. 49 of them for sale. Not going to count and check them all, but be my guest. Far more are 6mt.

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/search...stkTypId=28881

Data here on Pre LCI options (MT vs DCT, color, etc)
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...highlight=data

[mtoosexy]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Siding with MR on this one. Looks like the engine swap will be the highlight. The rest of the stage may be darker than expected. Keep hopes realistic to avoid disappointment. Don't take things for granted.

Attachment 1673180

Will they PLEASE at least make the S55 sound better? I may just keep my 2018 build slot due to the shit sound of the S55! and that is a shame... cuz i want the power!

[mtoosexy]

[QUOTE=norMcal;22063446]
It wasn't until I watched that silly Kiwi, Nick Murray, on YouTube and saw a comparison between his PDK, and a friends manual 911.
He pointed out something I never considered or realized (hard to believe it never occured to me in the 4 years driving such a car). I mean I knew that the DSG shifts quicker, that much was obvious. However, what Nick pointed out was that during up shifts on a turbo engine car, the DSG shifts gears so fast that the turbo is not losing any boost, because you never have to get off the throttle. Wear as with a manual, no matter how good you are, you will have to get off the throttle, drop the clutch, switch gears, release clutch and get back on the throttle, while the rpms drop, and more importantly the turbo boost goes away for a split second.

I think/hope most people know this, I could be wrong. And i will GLADLY take that deal... Lose a wee bit of boost in order to shift my own gears?!? YES please! My paycheck does not depend on a :04 difference in laptime due to losing some boost on an upshift Im in it for the enjoyment... IMO the manual is flat out more enjoyable... unless one sits in traffic all day. Luckily I do not. I have driven the DCT, its marvelous! But its not for me, no matter how much quicker it is. Luckily BMW still gives all of us the choice! Have fun and drive safe out there!

[chmura]

[QUOTE=mtoosexy;22068853]

Originally Posted by norMcal

It wasn't until I watched that silly Kiwi, Nick Murray, on YouTube and saw a comparison between his PDK, and a friends manual 911.
He pointed out something I never considered or realized (hard to believe it never occured to me in the 4 years driving such a car). I mean I knew that the DSG shifts quicker, that much was obvious. However, what Nick pointed out was that during up shifts on a turbo engine car, the DSG shifts gears so fast that the turbo is not losing any boost, because you never have to get off the throttle. Wear as with a manual, no matter how good you are, you will have to get off the throttle, drop the clutch, switch gears, release clutch and get back on the throttle, while the rpms drop, and more importantly the turbo boost goes away for a split second.

I think/hope most people know this, I could be wrong. And i will GLADLY take that deal... Lose a wee bit of boost in order to shift my own gears?!? YES please! My paycheck does not depend on a :04 difference in laptime due to losing some boost on an upshift Im in it for the enjoyment... IMO the manual is flat out more enjoyable... unless one sits in traffic all day. Luckily I do not. I have driven the DCT, its marvelous! But its not for me, no matter how much quicker it is. Luckily BMW still gives all of us the choice! Have fun and drive safe out there!

I would gladly take the deal as well.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by akkando

Data here on Pre LCI options (MT vs DCT, color, etc)
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...highlight=data

Interesting data. Worldwide it's about 25%, but in the US slightly more than 50%. So the used car link was obviously from the US and thus it is curious (that a lot more manuals where for sale). Thought they were harder to come bye.

Originally Posted by mtoosexy

I think/hope most people know this, I could be wrong. And i will GLADLY take that deal... Lose a wee bit of boost in order to shift my own gears?!? YES please! My paycheck does not depend on a :04 difference in laptime due to losing some boost on an upshift Im in it for the enjoyment... IMO the manual is flat out more enjoyable... unless one sits in traffic all day. Luckily I do not. I have driven the DCT, its marvelous! But its not for me, no matter how much quicker it is. Luckily BMW still gives all of us the choice! Have fun and drive safe out there!

I was a little surprised myself I never picked up on that. I had never heard any review where that was mentioned. Whenever a tester driver reviews a car with a dual clutch, they seem to only point out how fast it shifts. So naturally the acceleration is faster versus a manual. That is common knowledge and I obviously noticed that myself in my DD. But I never ever heard them mention the turbo boost dropping with a manual. It's a detail everyone seems to leave out.
I'm a long time car enthusiast and should really have picked up on that myself, but regardless, it is surprising it isn't mentioned more.

Like I said from the very beginning, I am a die hard manual guy (despite my recent posts) but I also have come to appreciate the advantages of a DSG in my other car. It might depend on each car individually. Driving an M2 back to back with both transmissions would be best. Right now I am comparing a 2.0t (200hp) engine with DSG, to a 3.2l N/A (~370hp) manual. Very different cars. All I know is that the acceleration in the real world, is not that much different between the two, despite a huge difference in hp, but it might not all be because of the transmission.

Originally Posted by chmura

I would gladly take the deal as well.

Bottom line, I would probably end up liking the 6mt better myself. Totally agree with that. However, the advantages of a DSG are hard to ignore, especially on a turbo engine car.

Last but not least. In a sense getting a modern car, enthusiast are already "selling out" to turbo engines, electric steering, more weight ect.........so going one step further and caving in on the transmission is just one more thing.

e46 M3 still has it all :-)