[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by j23

False. They are not superior on the street. You believe they are superior because they are bigger and better looking. You have no data showing that the M2C brakes actually perform better on the street ***due to size***.

My comments are a collection of what I've seen written on this website, and I'll believe owners over anything you have to say, as you seem to have a vested interest in disrespecting people while trying to convince the world you're an expert.

You can save your comments to me, as I won't believe the sky is blue if it comes from you.

[j23]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

My comments are a collection of what I've seen written on this website, and I'll believe owners over anything you have to say, as you seem to have a vested interest in disrespecting people while trying to convince the world you're an expert.
You can save your comments to me, as I won't believe the sky is blue if it comes from you.

I can tell you for a fact that stock M2C brakes are NOT track friendly by any stretch.

One of the first things people upgrade on this car when tracking are brakes, not suspension or anything else. At the very least, fluid and pads.

[j23]

Originally Posted by kart driver

For those, who are really hard on the brakes 2NH does matter and they are way better in comparison to standard blue brakes in terms of resistance to overheating.

Do you need racing brake pads and fluid If you push the car hard? Absolutely yes - it goes without saying. But the rotors from blue brakes are really insufficient and the 2NH are good enough.

Neither brakes will ever overheat on the street.

The only place where 2NH brakes may outperform the standard blue brakes are at the track over prolonged periods of hard braking. The reason why is twofold: better heat dissipation and more even pad wear. You will never replicate such abuse and temperatures on the street.

But even that is a stretch when we're talking about braking performance because there are so many other factors at play. At the track, the tiny blue brakes with race pads will outperform the bigger 2NH brakes with stock pads by a long shot, all day every day.

The factually incorrect narrative being pushed around in this thread is that the 2NH brakes are "superior" to the blue brakes on the street. Even though the main difference between the blue brakes and 2NH brakes is the size, which means literally nothing in a street car. Which part of the brakes being applied actually causes your car to stop? - It's the friction between the rotor and the pad. That's it. The number of pistons clamping down on that pad is completely meaningless on the street with regards to braking performance. More pistons in a caliper doesn't translate to more clamping power. As a matter of fact, the clamping power of each piston is reduced.

The reason why most newbies believe that bigger brakes are superior for street use is because they equate imaginary increase in clamping power with more friction, which in turn they equate with better stopping power. When in reality, that's not how brakes work lol. Not at all. Pad compound is the primary source of bite and feel, which has far more influence on stopping power on the street than the diameter of your rotor or the number of pistons in your caliper.

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by j23

One of the first things people upgrade on this car when tracking are brakes, not suspension or anything else. At the very least, fluid and pads.

Pretty sure everyone tracking their M2(c) are not upgrading to $4000+ brakes. I actually have yet to see anyone at the track with upgrading brakes short of people who are racing, which are few and far between.

The stock brakes work great on the track with upgraded fluid and pads, there is no question about that.

Increase caliper size is going to give you more fluid and less fade over longer sessions. The 2NH brakes (by design) are going to perform better than the original blue brakes.

On the street, the playing field is greatly evened out. 99% of drivers are not going to reach the limits of the stock brakes on ANY modern car on the street. If you are, you're likely driving recklessly, and illegally in most places for that matter.

The amount of brake dust put out by the OEM brake pads is excessive. I cant think of any other brake package that puts down that level of dust, and I've owned quite a few cars over the years (not just BMW's). There are plenty of viable options available in aftermarket pads that work just as good as OEM pads on the street. DS2500's are a solid pad, and have a similar cold bite pattern to the OEM brake pads. If you're getting "brake delay" when using DS2500's, then you likely installed them incorrectly, or did not bed them properly. plenty of people on this forum run them on the street (myself included), and claim (correctly) that overall, they are superior to the OEM brakes pads on the street.

Again, if you're pushing the limits of OEM brakes on the street, you're a danger to everyone else on the road and should have your license suspended.

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by j23

I can tell you for a fact that stock M2C brakes are NOT track friendly by any stretch.

One of the first things people upgrade on this car when tracking are brakes, not suspension or anything else. At the very least, fluid and pads.

I’ll try to jump in the conversation as you sound a bit too aggressive.

Do you have good experience with real racing cars and not just road legal cars on racetracks? Real racing cars are:

- 911 Cup as the first SERIOUS step to car racing world
- any GT3 class car

P.S. The 2NH are significantly better for track days than the regular blue brakes

[j23]

Originally Posted by detroitm2

Pretty sure everyone tracking their M2(c) are not upgrading to $4000+ brakes. I actually have yet to see anyone at the track with upgrading brakes short of people who are racing, which are few and far between.

I never claimed people are upgrading to expensive BBK's

In fact, I stated exactly what you have: fluid and pads. That's an upgrade, which proves a point: pad compound has more influence on braking performance than anything else in the braking system.

Originally Posted by detroitm2

The stock brakes work great on the track with upgraded fluid and pads, there is no question about that.

Exactly what I've been saying.

Originally Posted by detroitm2

Increase caliper size is going to give you more fluid and less fade over longer sessions. The 2NH brakes (by design) are going to perform better than the original blue brakes.

Exactly what I said all along. At the track, bigger brakes will cope better with heat. Simple as that. As far bad fluid, it will boil regardless. Caliper size will have no impact with good fluid like SRF.

Originally Posted by detroitm2

On the street, the playing field is greatly evened out. 99% of drivers are not going to reach the limits of the stock brakes on ANY modern car on the street. If you are, you're likely driving recklessly, and illegally in most places for that matter.

Yep. Some folks in this thread can't grasp it.

Originally Posted by detroitm2

The amount of brake dust put out by the OEM brake pads is excessive. I cant think of any other brake package that puts down that level of dust, and I've owned quite a few cars over the years (not just BMW's).

Agreed.

Originally Posted by detroitm2

There are plenty of viable options available in aftermarket pads that work just as good as OEM pads on the street. DS2500's are a solid pad, and have a similar cold bite pattern to the OEM brake pads. If you're getting "brake delay" when using DS2500's, then you likely installed them incorrectly, or did not bed them properly. plenty of people on this forum run them on the street (myself included), and claim (correctly) that overall, they are superior to the OEM brakes pads on the street.

Disagreed. Define "superior"..

Plenty of viable options? - Yes. Work as good as OEM? - No. Every pad is a sacrifice. In my experience, there is no street pad that bites as well as stock and dusts less. Definitely not the DS2500. They're noisier and simply don't have the same cold bite as stock. And the dust is still pretty bad. Definitely not "superior" in my world.

Installing pads is not rocket science. Not sure why you assumed wrong installation. Perhaps your stock pads weren't bedded in properly?

[j23]

Originally Posted by kart driver

I’ll try to jump in the conversation as you sound a bit too aggressive.

Do you have good experience with real racing cars and not just road legal cars on racetracks? Real racing cars are:

- 911 Cup as the first SERIOUS step to car racing world
- any GT3 class car

Not sure why I need to have experience with "real racing cars" in order to give an assessment on how the stock brakes perform under heavy load during track days?

You said it yourself: even the stock 2NH brakes can't handle the track. Stock means stock. Stock pads and fluid. We all know they aren't capable. Stock pads will fade instantly. An experience driver pushing the car hard will get maybe 1 or 2 laps in before this happens.

This entire thread and conversation revolves around stock pads. Member VisualEcho believes that stock pads are good for the track. We all know that's just not the case.

Originally Posted by kart driver

P.S. The 2NH are significantly better for track days than the regular blue brakes

Pal, you need to stop reading between the lines. This is exactly what I've been saying.

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by j23

Not sure why I need to have experience with "real racing cars" in order to give an assessment on how the stock brakes perform under heavy load during track days?

You said it yourself: even the stock 2NH brakes can't handle the track. Stock means stock. Stock pads and fluid. We all know they aren't capable. Stock pads will fade instantly. An experience driver pushing the car hard will get maybe 1 or 2 laps in before this happens.

This entire thread and conversation revolves around stock pads. Member VisualEcho believes that stock pads are good for the track. We all know that's just not the case.

Pal, you need to stop reading between the lines. This is exactly what I've been saying.

Because if you have good experience with racing cars, then you are definitely a relatively fast driver and definitely faster than those, who tried road legal cars only.

Having got some experience with racing cars but being limited to travel now because of pandemic, I have no other choice except for having fun with road legal cars now. Thus I started to bring my wife’s M2C to racetrack together with my 911 GT3.

Some things are true whether you believe it or not:
- 2NH are significantly better than regular (smaller) brakes on the M2C
- Size of the brake calipers and rotors does matter as it helps a lot not to overheat your brakes - you can’t ignore the laws of physics
- Changing brake pads and brake fluid is a must if you want to push your car hard enough but if you don’t do it then the 2NH will still perform better on the racetrack
- “Street“ also means highway, as it means road use (not race track). My M2C was used for 2 years on public roads only and until recently never saw racetracks. I did travel a lot across Europe with this car and never had any problems for 2 years with the brakes which are 2NH. This is the first M car with steel rotors, which survived for 2 years my driving style. All my previous M cars with steel rotors with no exception had always overheating problem within the first several months of ownership. This one has no problem until today.

As a result: 2NH brakes are an absolute must and are superior to blue brakes regardless whether you use this car on the street or on a racetrack.

[j23]

Originally Posted by kart driver

Because if you have good experience with racing cars, then you are definitely a relatively fast driver and definitely faster than those, who tried road legal cars only.

Having got some experience with racing cars but being limited to travel now because of pandemic, I have no other choice except for having fun with road legal cars now. Thus I started to bring my wife’s M2C to racetrack together with my 911 GT3.

Some things are true whether you believe it or not:
- 2NH are significantly better than regular (smaller) brakes on the M2C
- Size of the brake calipers and rotors does matter as it helps a lot not to overheat your brakes - you can’t ignore the laws of physics
- Changing brake pads and brake fluid is a must if you want to push your car hard enough but if you don’t do it then the 2NH will still perform better on the racetrack
- “Street“ also means highway, as it means road use (not race track). My M2C was used for 2 years on public roads only and until recently never saw racetracks. I did travel a lot across Europe with this car and never had any problems for 2 years with the brakes which are 2NH. This is the first M car with steel rotors, which survived for 2 years my driving style. All my previous M cars with steel rotors with no exception had always overheating problem within the first several months of ownership. This one has no problem until today.

As a result: 2NH brakes are an absolute must and are superior to blue brakes regardless whether you use this car on the street or on a racetrack.

Your conclusion of 2NH being better than regular blue brakes is based on track use, which I already addressed above. Care to read it?
I never disputed the fact that bigger brakes should - in theory - perform better at the track, where heat is your biggest enemy. You're basically repeating a lot of what I already stated.

But hold up. Let's back up...

This thread started with street pad recommendations. Me and others believe that stock pads are great for the street. The conversation went south when some folks started to exeggerate how bad and destructive the stock pads are on the street by throwing unsupported/ludicrous statements around, such as:

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

The stock pads will kill the stock rotors three times as fast [as ceramic pads]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

The stock pad is a street/track pad.

Let's clear up a few points. The stock pad is a street-only pad. Period.

In addition, there's no actual data to back up your claims suggesting that 2NH brakes are significantly better for track use than the standard blue brakes. Yes, we can agree that the 2NH brakes are bigger and therefore better at managing heat due to mass, but neither of these brakes have good enough cooling to begin with, so we're splitting hair as far as which will last longer, since both will overheat after some decent track use. Both 2NH and the blue brakes suffer from very poor ventilation relative to race calipers. Speaking of which, if you ever saw race calipers next to OEM calipers, you would know why. The stock calipers are designed for the street with compliance and efficiency in mind. One of the design objectives is also to look "cool" and aggressive, but are never purpose built to handle extreme loads or temperatures. Race calipers are pretty much the complete opposite: they have to be typically compact, lightweight, well ventilated, and durable at high temps. They don't need dust boots either. A lot of people are surprised to learn that most race-focused calipers have smaller pistons than OEM calipers. It is widely believed that monoblock OEM calipers are stiffer than two-piece race calipers, but that's not actually true.

In my experience, the 2NH brakes are not "significantly better" or "superior" to the standard blue brakes.

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by j23

Your conclusion of 2NH being better than regular blue brakes is based on track use, which I already addressed above. Care to read it?

Are you able to read? Or you just write without reading?

I specifically mentioned in my post above, that 2NH are THE FIRST brakes to survive 2 years of my street driving unlike my other M cars in the past.

And a friend of mine has M2C with blue brakes and is also a fast driver and thus overheated the stock rotors on the street.

If the car is driven slow than you won’t see the difference between blue and 2NH brakes. But if you PUSH the car even ON PUBLIC ROADS you the difference will be obvious.

[j23]

Originally Posted by kart driver

Some things are true whether you believe it or not:
- 2NH are significantly better than regular (smaller) brakes on the M2C

Whether you believe it or not, that is not true

Originally Posted by kart driver

- Size of the brake calipers and rotors does matter as it helps a lot not to overheat your brakes - you can’t ignore the laws of physics

Your brakes will NEVER overheat on the street. This thread is about pads on the street, not racetracks.

Originally Posted by kart driver

- the 2NH will still perform better on the racetrack

You'll get 1 more lap in - if you're lucky - before they fade. So that's a moot point.

Originally Posted by kart driver

- “Street“ also means highway, as it means road use (not race track). My M2C was used for 2 years on public roads only and until recently never saw racetracks. I did travel a lot across Europe with this car and never had any problems for 2 years with the brakes which are 2NH. This is the first M car with steel rotors, which survived for 2 years my driving style. All my previous M cars with steel rotors with no exception had always overheating problem within the first several months of ownership. This one has no problem until today.

How exactly did you manage to experience overheating problem within the first several months of ownership on the street? - That makes no sense, as neither one of the brakes being compared would overheat on the street.

[j23]

Originally Posted by kart driver

Are you able to read? Or you just write without reading?

I specifically mentioned in my post above, that 2NH are THE FIRST brakes to survive 2 years of my street driving unlike my other M cars in the past.

And a friend of mine has M2C with blue brakes and is also a fast driver and thus overheated the stock rotors on the street.

If the car is driven slow than you won’t see the difference between blue and 2NH brakes. But if you PUSH the car even ON PUBLIC ROADS you the difference will be obvious.

I call BS on that. Never heard of anyone "overheating" the stock brakes on the street, unless you're being completely reckless and using public roads as your "racetrack".

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by j23

I call BS on that. Never heard of anyone "overheating" the stock brakes on the street, unless you're being completely reckless and using public roads as your "racetrack".

Have you ever heard of European highways? And in particular German Autobahns? Or the Alps with long twisty roads going down for many kilometers.

Those are all public roads.

If you never heard of anybody who overheated stock brakes on M cars on public roads then your circle of communication doesn’t include those people, who are capable of driving fast.

P.S. The reason why I asked if you have good experience with real racing cars is simple. Negative answer to that question would mean you are not really a fast driver. If someone is sharing his own experience being a slow driver then his comments above are all irrelevant when it comes to conclusion on durability of brakes or tires.

So for me it doesn’t matter what you think and what you write on brakes. From now on I think I will better ignore what you write.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteM2

Having over 20k miles in my OG M2 and M2C you CAN overheat stock brakes on street.

Very glad you don't live anywhere near me. But please, carry on until you get your fill, or you kill someone.

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteM2

Having over 20k miles in my OG M2 and M2C you CAN overheat stock brakes on street. Both the Blue and BBK Grey brakes in stock form overheat to the point where it is embarrassing for BMW! The bite on stock M2C Grey brakes is good and that is it. Repeated use on fast UK twisty B roads and back roads and they might as well be made of wood even with uprated fluid!

What kid of brake kit do you have on the picture with yellow calipers?

Calipers from CCB of M3/M4?
Rotors?

[Karmic Man]

'Street' and Street

[M2C_PLUS]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Very glad you don't live anywhere near me. But please, carry on until you get your fill, or you kill someone.

Some of our B roads and back roads have a speed limit of 60mph and that is plenty of speed to cook brakes on the twists. Don't judge others on your own ability.

[M2C_PLUS]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

'Street' and Street

and the UK special "back roads"

[M2C_PLUS]

Originally Posted by kart driver

What kid of brake kit do you have on the picture with yellow calipers?

Calipers from CCB of M3/M4?
Rotors?

Yes and steel rotors from the M2C big brake kit.

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteM2

Yes and steel rotors from the M2C big brake kit.

But why not the calipers from 2NH?

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteM2

and the UK special "back roads"

Rally tracks huh? Very nice

How do you find the Trofeo R on the 'street' in UK weather?

[M2C_PLUS]

Originally Posted by kart driver

But why not the calipers from 2NH?

I already had a brand new set of CCB calipers.