[widetyres]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Halim seems to think its just the way the car processes the increased torque request vs throttle input.

This initial response looks to match what Lemetier picked up on, in that the requested load is too high whilst the clutch is still not fully released, and the ECU backs off to protect the engine/transmission.

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Working with Halim and PTF on some tweaking to the stage 1 93 OTS map for the delay with 6 speed manual. First test map feeling alot better. I'm not sure what he is adjusting but he did mention there is a timer set between shifts that the car will hold full boost.

Going to do a few more runs tonight with it.

Great news!

Thanks for picking it up with them. I have also forwarded them some logs in case it helps the investigation.

Did you send them stock tune logs for them to compare against?

[widetyres]

Originally Posted by designatedposter

Nice! Very happy to hear 6mt getting some drivability updates! We're definitely the minority. Can you request adjusting for linear throttle. I don't like getting to full boost when I press 10% in sport mode. Maybe it's okay for the 8at,but some better modulation for 6mt would be appreciated.

Personally I think that this may well be part of the issue, in that the load requested by the throttle mapping is too high too quick and is exceeding the ECU protection level.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by designatedposter

Nice! Very happy to hear 6mt getting some drivability updates! We're definitely the minority. Can you request adjusting for linear throttle. I don't like getting to full boost when I press 10% in sport mode. Maybe it's okay for the 8at,but some better modulation for 6mt would be appreciated.

If I understand correctly what you're saying, do you mean Sport+ rather than Sport mode (full boost @ 10% accelerator)?

I've deleted the Sport+ throttle (replaced with Sport) in my BM3 custom tune because it was too sensitive. Currently up to 20% accelerator my Comfort & Sport throttles deliver identical acceleration (toggling between the modes & using Bimmerlink for accelerator position).

My memory is that with my original iStep (July 17 LCI build) there was a greater difference between Comfort/Sport (current iStep is F020-18-11-531).

[designatedposter]

Originally Posted by David.m

If I understand correctly what you're saying, do you mean Sport+ rather than Sport mode (full boost @ 10% accelerator)?

I've deleted the Sport+ throttle (replaced with Sport) in my BM3 custom tune because it was too sensitive. Currently up to 20% accelerator my Comfort & Sport throttles deliver identical acceleration (toggling between the modes & using Bimmerlink for accelerator position).

My memory is that with my original iStep (July 17 LCI build) there was a greater difference between Comfort/Sport (current iStep is F020-18-11-531).

let me clarify, i have a f22 m235i, not an m2, so the relationship of comfort/sport/sport+ may differ. on my f22, there is comfort throttle, then sport/sport+ throttle is same.

comfort throttle is too lazy, and sport throttle is too aggressive.

[3t3p]

Just rang a coding garage but they can't do it as will need to be done via a tune.

Not sure what to do, suppose I can try stage one and see what it's like up top, the engine is willing to rev out at the moment albeit it craps out hard at 7k.

Have not nearly as much info about MHD.

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

So if I code out cold start I'll then want to run stage one or it's a waste of BM3 license, but then I'll have MORE lag between shifts?

Both MHD and BM3 can code out cold start and so it's then down to which OTS maps are better for MT cars - based on WT's info - it seems like MHD might be you better option....

Shame though as PTF are continually evolving BM3 to improve UI, functionality, connectivity and OTS map updates incl long awaited stg 2+

Originally Posted by widetyres

Have you already bought a Bm3 license? If not, then go with MHD - you can remove the cold start, you won't have additional lag issues, and you can run the 98 map without fear of power loss due to timing collapses with UK fuel.

The lag is very noticeably worse with Bm3 maps - it's like a definite pause before pick up. I think I recall you are going to track your car? If so, you will notice it alot.

WT,

It reads to me like PTF may have prioritised it's catalogue of OTS maps for DCT cars. If so this is odd given that, IIRC, highest proportion of MT : AT M cars are sold in the USA, their domestic market.

FWIW, whilst I can't comment on lag wrt MT as my M2 is DCT, with BM3 OTS stg2 c/w SVP99, I'm not seeing any additional lagginess nor the power loss/timing pulls from mid to upper rev ranges you refer to above. Car has been tracked too and does well for typical TD 15-20min stints.

BP

[3t3p]

I worry re MHD targeting higher boost pressures albeit with less aggressive/advanced timing, to me this yells 'turbo lag' in the truest sense, since it will be asking for the turbo to achieve higher pressure?

Wether noticeable or not is the question and I have a turbo inlet which on stock map as been felt to greatly enhance turbo response.

Kinda annoying as I bought the Thor WiFi dongle but if I'd gotten MHD would have more options but at the time thought I'd always be going BM3 so saved fifteen dollars by getting the Thor only adapter!

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

I worry re MHD targeting higher boost pressures albeit with less aggressive/advanced timing, to me this yells 'turbo lag' in the truest sense, since it will be asking for the turbo to achieve higher pressure?

Wether noticeable or not is the question and I have a turbo inlet which on stock map as been felt to greatly enhance turbo response.

Kinda annoying as I bought the Thor WiFi dongle but if I'd gotten MHD would have more options but at the time thought I'd always be going BM3 so saved fifteen dollars by getting the Thor only adapter!

You want less aggressive timing during turbo spool. This will cause combustion to burn later and exhaust gasses to be hotter/higher velocity. Higher velocity = faster spool.

I was told there is an rpm limit that the DME will hold full boost between shifts. Doing a test today to see what that limit is. Thought to be around 4k or 4500 rpm (if rpms drop to below this on upshift, DME will release boost).

[3t3p]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

You want less aggressive timing during turbo spool. This will cause combustion to burn later and exhaust gasses to be hotter/higher velocity. Higher velocity = faster spool.

I was told there is an rpm limit that the DME will hold full boost between shifts. Doing a test today to see what that limit is. Thought to be around 4k or 4500 rpm (if rpms drop to below this on upshift, DME will release boost).

Read this could be as high as 6000rpm somewhere.

What is stage 2+?

I like the idea MHD runs off your phone and is very fast with their connector. Also they have a linear throttle map?

I am also encouraged to see BM3 may be aware of the lag between shifts and seeing what they can do?

[widetyres]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

I worry re MHD targeting higher boost pressures albeit with less aggressive/advanced timing, to me this yells 'turbo lag' in the truest sense, since it will be asking for the turbo to achieve higher pressure?

Wether noticeable or not is the question and I have a turbo inlet which on stock map as been felt to greatly enhance turbo response.

Kinda annoying as I bought the Thor WiFi dongle but if I'd gotten MHD would have more options but at the time thought I'd always be going BM3 so saved fifteen dollars by getting the Thor only adapter!

Boost target doesn't affect lag. If the target is higher on one tune vs another, all other things being equal, the turbo would still spool up at the same speed in the lower revs.

MHD 2+ had very little lag imo and is much more exciting and more powerful than the stock tune (with same mods). You have a relatively large ic in the do88 - you will actually get less lag with a tune.

Mhd Stage 2+ = Bm3 stage 2
(the + with MHD indicates the tune is for cars with upgraded ic)

[widetyres]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Both MHD and BM3 can code out cold start and so it's then down to which OTS maps are better for MT cars - based on WT's info - it seems like MHD might be you better option....

Shame though as PTF are continually evolving BM3 to improve UI, functionality, connectivity and OTS map updates incl long awaited stg 2+

WT,

It reads to me like PTF may have prioritised it's catalogue of OTS maps for DCT cars. If so this is odd given that, IIRC, highest proportion of MT : AT M cars are sold in the USA, their domestic market.

FWIW, whilst I can't comment on lag wrt MT as my M2 is DCT, with BM3 OTS stg2 c/w SVP99, I'm not seeing any additional lagginess nor the power loss/timing pulls from mid to upper rev ranges you refer to above. Car has been tracked too and does well for typical TD 15-20min stints.

BP

I don't think its about prioritisation, but probably to do with the car they developed the tune on being dct.

[widetyres]

Halim had also given me a tune to test, but I haven't had a moment yet to try it yet - hopefully tomorrow.

[3t3p]

Originally Posted by widetyres

Boost target doesn't affect lag. If the target is higher on one tune vs another, all other things being equal, the turbo would still spool up at the same speed in the lower revs.

MHD 2+ had very little lag imo and is much more exciting and more powerful than the stock tune (with same mods). You have a relatively large ic in the do88 - you will actually get less lag with a tune.

Mhd Stage 2+ = Bm3 stage 2
(the + with MHD indicates the tune is for cars with upgraded ic)

Thanks and good to know that perceived lag won't be a problem.

Still, I want upper RPM reward, though I do like turbo low down launch feel too! Can't I have it all?!

Let us know how you get on and thanks for your approach one of a kind as far as I can see with this info.

FWIW I have this shift lag effect (SLE?) on what is as far as I can tell ancient istep from 2016!

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

Read this could be as high as 6000rpm somewhere.

What is stage 2+?

I like the idea MHD runs off your phone and is very fast with their connector. Also they have a linear throttle map?

I am also encouraged to see BM3 may be aware of the lag between shifts and seeing what they can do?

It's definitely somewhere right between 4-4500 rpm. Halim new map testing is feeling great for stage 1 6mt. Now working on allowing DME to keep full load between shifts below 4K rpm.

By full load I mean full torque request according to throttle map, not necessary max torque for the map itself (that could damage motor at lower rpm and high load). We're not changing the torque requests in throttle mapping.

[widetyres]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

It's definitely somewhere right between 4-4500 rpm. Halim new map testing is feeling great for stage 1 6mt. Now working on allowing DME to keep full load between shifts below 4K rpm.

By full load I mean full torque request according to throttle map, not necessary max torque for the map itself (that could damage motor at lower rpm and high load). We're not changing the torque requests in throttle mapping.

I've just tried the latest Stage 2 98 test map - this is my message to PTF:


I've just gone out for a drive and the difference is AMAZING!!! :-) You have nailed it!

It's wet again, so the drive was a bit limited, but there didn't seem to be any lag anywhere in the rev range following a shift, which is really great. Cheers for your work on this. Great job!!!!

I will get a log to you later in the week once we get a dry day.



The map I tried a couple of weeks ago bought the map back to OEM levels of lag - but this new version is really amazing.

This post-shift lag issue was the one thing that bothered me about the M2 as a package, and it is now sorted! Mega pleased!!!!

Cheers for you help in progressing these test maps also PackPride85. :-)

[Dasnub]

Any idea if they’ve made similar changes with the Stage 1 map? I may try and run a tune just for this benefit alone.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

Any idea if they’ve made similar changes with the Stage 1 map? I may try and run a tune just for this benefit alone.

I'm testing the stage 1 93 map currently.

[widetyres]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

Any idea if they’ve made similar changes with the Stage 1 map? I may try and run a tune just for this benefit alone.

These updates aren't in the public maps yet, but I'm sure that it won't be long provided the logs look ok.

[3t3p]

Originally Posted by widetyres

I've just tried the latest Stage 2 98 test map - this is my message to PTF:


I've just gone out for a drive and the difference is AMAZING!!! :-) You have nailed it!

It's wet again, so the drive was a bit limited, but there didn't seem to be any lag anywhere in the rev range following a shift, which is really great. Cheers for your work on this. Great job!!!!

I will get a log to you later in the week once we get a dry day.



The map I tried a couple of weeks ago bought the map back to OEM levels of lag - but this new version is really amazing.

This post-shift lag issue was the one thing that bothered me about the M2 as a package, and it is now sorted! Mega pleased!!!!

Cheers for you help in progressing these test maps also PackPride85. :-)

Wow I bet it's a great feeling!

I wonder if MHD can or will do something like this.

Not yet bought a license but swaying me back to BM3!

Is this going to be a general release OTS map for 6MT cars or custom tune only?

And safe for drivetrain?

[widetyres]

Extract of my Stage 2 98 test map below - you can see that after the clutch comes up that the wastegate now stays closed until boost pressure has reached target. (even with the lower RPM shifts)

The throttle is near as damn it immediate now. Perhaps there is the faintest moment of (genuine) turbo lag in some scenarios, but it's pretty much instantaneous most of the time.

Halim has said that he plans to release an update (but I don't know when that will be).

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by widetyres

Extract of my Stage 2 98 test map below - you can see that after the clutch comes up that the wastegate now stays closed until boost pressure has reached target. (even with the lower RPM shifts)

The throttle is near as damn it immediate now. Perhaps there is the faintest moment of (genuine) turbo lag in some scenarios, but it's pretty much instantaneous most of the time.

Halim has said that he plans to release an update (but I don't know when that will be).

Also likely to be added as a toggle switch in the map configs so you can turn it on/off for OTS maps.

[3t3p]

Well BM3 just beat MHD then despite more PITA factor for making changes.
Don't know how to read logs but sounds like you're enjoying it.

Those BM3 raspberry pi project boxes look fun and an excuse to buy some pi for first time!