[medphysdave]

Hoping some can explain the factors that go into reducing brake zone so I can put together a game plane. Swapped in the Carbotechs xp12s. Brake zone distance decreased on lower speed corners, but I'd say stayed similar in distance to cool factory pads. I could get into ABS if I were hard on the brakes at the end of a brake zone because I was to aggressive. Usually this was if I overshot the turn point too much because I hadn't scrubbed enough speed to turn in.

I can't decide if I was still overheating the xp12s and need do go to a higher temp compound? The brakes were always there by the next corner. Felt pretty solid, but would get a little softer after a few consecutive laps. My day was short and I wonder if they weren't quite bedded yet. Still a big improvement over the factory brakes. I'd run XP12 on the street if weren't loud.

I'm pretty sure I need more tire. I don't plan to run the cup2 connects on track any more. Bias was still pretty good. I thought I could use a bit more rear, but that might lead to trouble since I like to occasionally trail brake. I don't think I'd run a higher compound in rear.

Would stickier tires and higher temp brake compounds help shorten brake zone. Or am I running into a brake cooling issue. Higher temp compounds might just mask another issue and making brake consistency really unstable as the pads heat and cool on different parts of the track

[OG Shark]

Braking is a function of grip - to shorten the distance you need to improve the grip. Stickier tires, more downforce, etc. I'm oversimplifying it a bit but that is the main focus. You can start getting into rotational mass, vehicle weight, etc but in the end if you overwhelm the amount of grip you have available either it kicks in abs or locks up. If you make the pad grab the disc harder than the tire has available grip - it doesn't matter how much braking force you have as the tires are going to lose traction. Track pads primarily change the characteristics and/or increase fade resistance. You really shouldn't see an increase in braking performance with them. You should however see them hold up to fading much better than the factory pads.

Same thing goes for a BBK. You don't by them to reduce the braking distance - you buy them to reduce fade. A kit like the Essex/AP will actually reduce it a bit due to the weight savings but the main reason to run them is to eliminate fade - which is easy to do on the heavy, fast cars. Certainly other benefits to them as well but that is the main driver behind running them.

[E90convert]

How big your pair is will have the greatest influence on braking zone length

Followed by tires, brakes, suspension geometry, weight balance, ect.

Are you running stainless steel braided lines? Are the tires falling off in other attributes (lateral grip, corner exit grip)?

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by E90convert

How big your pair is will have the greatest influence on braking zone length

Followed by tires, brakes, suspension geometry, weight balance, ect.

Are you running stainless steel braided lines?

Stock brake lines. I definitely push the brake zones. Sometimes too much. .

[dvas]

Start with ensuring your technique is good, then improve your rubber

[medphysdave]

Definitely room to fine tune technique. Sometimes I think I might test various modifications too much. Some get me into trouble. Working on trail braking and being able to get on the throttle sooner on corner exit is a focus. I think that's where I found a lot of time this last event. That being said, I don't like feeling like my car equipment isn't in synergy. I might invest in a better data recorder so I can analyze my laps better. It's difficult right now with minimal information being recorded. I'd like to have the brake and throttle positions recorded. First thing will be a second set of wheels with a dedicated track tire. I've already got the RT660s. I don't think they are extreme, but hopefully last a little longer and remain consistent under the abuse.

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Stock brake lines. I definitely push the brake zones. Sometimes too much. .

Moving to stainless steel braided lines on past track vehicles gave me a lot more confidence in the brakes which translated to faster laps. Now whenever I buy something new to drive, it will have new pads, lines and high temp fluid before it ever sees the track.

Not sure what events you do, but having a seasoned instructor or other driver jump in the car and provide some free coaching is always one of my go-to moves when I’m struggling with something. A lot of people I track with use a Garmin Catalyst which they like. I’m using an AIM Solo 2 (don’t have catalyst money haha).

Consider focusing on consistency first. Do a session where you intentionally brake exactly in the same spot each time and “log” in your head how the car feels. Then next session like 1-2 corner where you brake a little later. “Log” and compare in your head or on paper how it feels. Write it out, keeps the head fresh for the next session to remember things.

[D.Yooras]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Hoping some can explain the factors that go into reducing brake zone so I can put together a game plane. Swapped in the Carbotechs xp12s. Brake zone distance decreased on lower speed corners, but I'd say stayed similar in distance to cool factory pads. I could get into ABS if I were hard on the brakes at the end of a brake zone because I was to aggressive. Usually this was if I overshot the turn point too much because I hadn't scrubbed enough speed to turn in.

I can't decide if I was still overheating the xp12s and need do go to a higher temp compound? The brakes were always there by the next corner. Felt pretty solid, but would get a little softer after a few consecutive laps. My day was short and I wonder if they weren't quite bedded yet. Still a big improvement over the factory brakes. I'd run XP12 on the street if weren't loud.

I'm pretty sure I need more tire. I don't plan to run the cup2 connects on track any more. Bias was still pretty good. I thought I could use a bit more rear, but that might lead to trouble since I like to occasionally trail brake. I don't think I'd run a higher compound in rear.

Would stickier tires and higher temp brake compounds help shorten brake zone. Or am I running into a brake cooling issue. Higher temp compounds might just mask another issue and making brake consistency really unstable as the pads heat and cool on different parts of the track

Carbotech pads are organic based pads instead of metal like most brake pads. Their composite causes them to have a smaller operating temperature and also a softer pedal feel which also makes them harder to modulate at the limit. They are great for drivers who don't have great pedal control and/or don't attack the brakes very hard or aggressively.

When I was racing spec miata I ran Hawk pads (DTC60 and DTC30s for certain tracks). At one point I was talked into to trying G-Loc pads (which are some of the Carbotech guys that left), tried them for a practice and qualifying session, and hated them so much I spent the time to change them before Saturday's race in 90 something degree heat. The co-efficient of friction was too low unless I stood on the brake pedal and when they locked up they were very hard to modulate at limit. The initial pedal feel was not very good and it got more inconsistent as they got hotter.

Having said that, there were still plenty of people running Carbotech/GLoc pads with success but they did not fit my driving style at all. Give DTC60 (or 70s if you want insane friction) for your next track day and see what you think.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by D.Yooras

Carbotech pads are organic based pads instead of metal like most brake pads. Their composite causes them to have a smaller operating temperature and also a softer pedal feel which also makes them harder to modulate at the limit. They are great for drivers who don't have great pedal control and/or don't attack the brakes very hard or aggressively.

When I was racing spec miata I ran Hawk pads (DTC60 and DTC30s for certain tracks). At one point I was talked into to trying G-Loc pads (which are some of the Carbotech guys that left), tried them for a practice and qualifying session, and hated them so much I spent the time to change them before Saturday's race in 90 something degree heat. The co-efficient of friction was too low unless I stood on the brake pedal and when they locked up they were very hard to modulate at limit. The initial pedal feel was not very good and it got more inconsistent as they got hotter.

Having said that, there were still plenty of people running Carbotech/GLoc pads with success but they did not fit my driving style at all. Give DTC60 (or 70s if you want insane friction) for your next track day and see what you think.

I would say that you have described my experience with the Carbotechs. Not bad by any stretch, but the feel is not for me. I've realized that I'm really not that hard on the brakes, which is a good thing. By hard I mean dragging the brakes into the brake zone and unecessarily creating added heat. I keep seeing people stay away from hawk, but they sound like what is be after. The guys running zl1 1les seem to be using hawk.