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M2 Technical Topics > S55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > Carbahn vs. Dinan flash tunes? Pros/cons from one to the other?

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      05-01-2020, 10:41 PM   #23
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Looks like its $1500 all in.

If I get the tablet option, can I update the tune settings myself after flash/unlock?
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      05-01-2020, 11:15 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bioman View Post
Looks like its $1500 all in.

If I get the tablet option, can I update the tune settings myself after flash/unlock?
As noted above if you have the new DME update no and no tablet option. If you do not have the new DME Update you can use the tablet to flash. You do not have customizability like you do for BM3 from the tablet but can email them with your request and they will send you an updated file to flash with the change (e.g., more burbles).
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      05-02-2020, 05:43 AM   #25
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I'll try get my answer here first before I call them directly.

Has anyone called Carbahn and inquired about warranty regarding Catless DP+BMS Intake?
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      05-02-2020, 04:28 PM   #26
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I'm also considering the Dinan and Carbahn tunes for my M2C

The dyno graph posted on the Carbahn website for their Stage 1 tune shows some interesting torque and power characteristics

It shows a massive increase in torque in the midrange but power starts to level off around 5250 rpm and then drops like a rock after 6000 rpm

Assuming I could manage that midrange torque (I still find the stock torque a bit of a challenge to control at times) it would also appear likely that I would be short shifting at least 1000-1250 rpm early
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      05-02-2020, 04:47 PM   #27
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If I do decide to go with a warrantied tune, I think I might actually be better off with just the basic Dinan + tune given my skill level and preference for a more linear power curve
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      05-02-2020, 07:15 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by 2020M2Competition View Post
If I do decide to go with a warrantied tune, I think I might actually be better off with just the basic Dinan + tune given my skill level and preference for a more linear power curve
Good points on both of your posts. I have problems with the Dinan graph because it looks like it was created in photoshop and not a screen grab from the dyno read out. That's doesn't mean it's not accurate, but the baseline doesn't really match up with any one else's base dyno runs, and I prefer some raw data.

Though on the flip side, the Carbahn graph is off an F80/82 not the M2C. I can tell you from feeling how it drives it's very linear and pulls all the way through 7500 rpm and feels like it still has some legs on it. Never felt like I had to short shift it like I did on the stock map.

Also, IIRC Dinan is in Alabama now and their facility uses a rolling dyno vs the dunks that hook up right to the rear axle. So slippage on the rolling dyno may impact this to.

One more data point, is that when Dinan got bought out they sold the racing business and the engine building business back to Steve Dinan and he uses it for Carbahn. Dinan wanted to keep the higher margin products (exhaust, intakes, etc.)

Again, this is anecdotal and just my point of view, so please take it with a grain of salt from my experience and not objective fact.
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      05-02-2020, 07:20 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by waldrops View Post
I'll try get my answer here first before I call them directly.

Has anyone called Carbahn and inquired about warranty regarding Catless DP+BMS Intake?
Good question. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe Carbahn tries to make the tune emissions legal so maybe catless downpipes may void warranty. I think intake may be good.
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      05-02-2020, 08:09 PM   #30
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Carbahn tune is for stock DP.
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      05-02-2020, 08:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020M2Competition View Post
I'm also considering the Dinan and Carbahn tunes for my M2C

The dyno graph posted on the Carbahn website for their Stage 1 tune shows some interesting torque and power characteristics

It shows a massive increase in torque in the midrange but power starts to level off around 5250 rpm and then drops like a rock after 6000 rpm

Assuming I could manage that midrange torque (I still find the stock torque a bit of a challenge to control at times) it would also appear likely that I would be short shifting at least 1000-1250 rpm early
This is why Carbahn doesn't require an upgraded heat exchanger. They are tapering power off to manage heat.
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      05-02-2020, 09:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Good points on both of your posts. I have problems with the Dinan graph because it looks like it was created in photoshop and not a screen grab from the dyno read out. That's doesn't mean it's not accurate, but the baseline doesn't really match up with any one else's base dyno runs, and I prefer some raw data.

Though on the flip side, the Carbahn graph is off an F80/82 not the M2C. I can tell you from feeling how it drives it's very linear and pulls all the way through 7500 rpm and feels like it still has some legs on it. Never felt like I had to short shift it like I did on the stock map.

Also, IIRC Dinan is in Alabama now and their facility uses a rolling dyno vs the dunks that hook up right to the rear axle. So slippage on the rolling dyno may impact this to.

One more data point, is that when Dinan got bought out they sold the racing business and the engine building business back to Steve Dinan and he uses it for Carbahn. Dinan wanted to keep the higher margin products (exhaust, intakes, etc.)

Again, this is anecdotal and just my point of view, so please take it with a grain of salt from my experience and not objective fact.
Yeah, all the Dinan graphs I've seen are clearly manipulated in some manner as they are just way too smooth and like you said even the stock baselines look a little off when compared to others

Anyhow, I really appreciate you sharing your first hand experience with the Carbahn tune

Sounds pretty amazing
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      05-02-2020, 09:15 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ONLYA6 View Post
This is why Carbahn doesn't require an upgraded heat exchanger. They are tapering power off to manage heat.
Makes sense

I also found some more info in the F80 section in case anyone's interested

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=129

"The dip around 3k is due to the nature of our dyno. We are using a Dynapack, a hydraulic wheel hub brake dyno (unlike Dynojet which is a tire inertia dyno or a Mustang witch is a tire roller brake dyno), the Dynapack has very light rotational inertia and it holds the car at a fixed RPM until the user tells it to release. During the RPM hold, the ECU will see an abnormally high load, so it richens the mixture, and retards the timing. Once released, the load is reduced, so the ECU will advance timing and lean out the mixture. The dip that you see on the plot is the time it takes the ECU to figure out the load has been released and recover to normal mixture and timing. In other words, it is an artificial condition created by our dyno that will not occur during normal driving.

The falloff in HP at high RPM is the result of a couple factors at play. One, we are very conscious of compressor efficiency and turbo charger redline. Over-spinning the turbochargers will greatly reduce their life expectancies. Overspinning the turbochargers also creates more heat and inconsistent power output in hot summer conditions. We are developing upgraded turbos on the S55 which will have a more powerful top end.
It should also be noted that Dynapacks read higher torque and lower horsepower, compared to both Mustang and Dynojet dynamometers. We used to own a Mustang dyno and we have rented Dynojet dyno before and our experience is that they read 2-2.5% less torque and about 2-2.5% more HP than the Dynapack."
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      05-02-2020, 11:36 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020M2Competition View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLYA6 View Post
This is why Carbahn doesn't require an upgraded heat exchanger. They are tapering power off to manage heat.
Makes sense

I also found some more info in the F80 section in case anyone's interested

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...;postcount=129

"The dip around 3k is due to the nature of our dyno. We are using a Dynapack, a hydraulic wheel hub brake dyno (unlike Dynojet which is a tire inertia dyno or a Mustang witch is a tire roller brake dyno), the Dynapack has very light rotational inertia and it holds the car at a fixed RPM until the user tells it to release. During the RPM hold, the ECU will see an abnormally high load, so it richens the mixture, and retards the timing. Once released, the load is reduced, so the ECU will advance timing and lean out the mixture. The dip that you see on the plot is the time it takes the ECU to figure out the load has been released and recover to normal mixture and timing. In other words, it is an artificial condition created by our dyno that will not occur during normal driving.

The falloff in HP at high RPM is the result of a couple factors at play. One, we are very conscious of compressor efficiency and turbo charger redline. Over-spinning the turbochargers will greatly reduce their life expectancies. Overspinning the turbochargers also creates more heat and inconsistent power output in hot summer conditions. We are developing upgraded turbos on the S55 which will have a more powerful top end.
It should also be noted that Dynapacks read higher torque and lower horsepower, compared to both Mustang and Dynojet dynamometers. We used to own a Mustang dyno and we have rented Dynojet dyno before and our experience is that they read 2-2.5% less torque and about 2-2.5% more HP than the Dynapack."
I knew I remembered reading the dyno thing somewhere when I was doing research. Completely forgot about this thread. Good find and helpful for those here doing their own research.

Also, the other poster's point about the heat exchanger makes sense too when seeing Carbahn's explanation of top end.
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      05-04-2020, 08:20 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Good points on both of your posts. I have problems with the Dinan graph because it looks like it was created in photoshop and not a screen grab from the dyno read out. That's doesn't mean it's not accurate, but the baseline doesn't really match up with any one else's base dyno runs, and I prefer some raw data.

Though on the flip side, the Carbahn graph is off an F80/82 not the M2C. I can tell you from feeling how it drives it's very linear and pulls all the way through 7500 rpm and feels like it still has some legs on it. Never felt like I had to short shift it like I did on the stock map.

Also, IIRC Dinan is in Alabama now and their facility uses a rolling dyno vs the dunks that hook up right to the rear axle. So slippage on the rolling dyno may impact this to.

One more data point, is that when Dinan got bought out they sold the racing business and the engine building business back to Steve Dinan and he uses it for Carbahn. Dinan wanted to keep the higher margin products (exhaust, intakes, etc.)

Again, this is anecdotal and just my point of view, so please take it with a grain of salt from my experience and not objective fact.
Usually don't get into the weeds on these posts but thought I would correct a few things before disinformation was spread.

1. Graphs on the website are created in Excel as they are an average of numerous dyno pulls. They are also done so that you can easily decipher numbers at any major RPM in terms of peak power, power by RPM and gain at each RPM. They are not intended to deceive -- furthest thing from it actually, as the purpose is to eliminate the tendency to use glory pulls as the basis of expected output.

2. We actually have 3 dyno's on site (4 if you include the engine dyno) with talks of adding yet another. 2 AWD Mustang dyno's and an AWD Dynapack cell (same as Carbahn). We use all three and have them callibrated so they all report the same measurements (within a very small percentage of error at least). The purpose is so that no matter what dyno the car may be on we get the same numbers as cars are constantly being shifted around the various dyno's every day.

3. The engine shop was sold back to Carbahn/Steve simply because it did not fit the model of a private equity owned business. Profitability is possible in it but it also requires constant work and a champion to lead that cause with interacting personally with vendors, investors, etc. Its a very different business then one that is built around serving the consumer market specifically -- especially at scale. That said, the value of an engine shop is not lost on us and we (APR/Dinan) continue to house a small engine shop on site. Its purpose is not to build engines but rather to test them and the associated products for weaknesses and abilities.
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      05-04-2020, 10:05 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Good points on both of your posts. I have problems with the Dinan graph because it looks like it was created in photoshop and not a screen grab from the dyno read out. That's doesn't mean it's not accurate, but the baseline doesn't really match up with any one else's base dyno runs, and I prefer some raw data.

Though on the flip side, the Carbahn graph is off an F80/82 not the M2C. I can tell you from feeling how it drives it's very linear and pulls all the way through 7500 rpm and feels like it still has some legs on it. Never felt like I had to short shift it like I did on the stock map.

Also, IIRC Dinan is in Alabama now and their facility uses a rolling dyno vs the dunks that hook up right to the rear axle. So slippage on the rolling dyno may impact this to.

One more data point, is that when Dinan got bought out they sold the racing business and the engine building business back to Steve Dinan and he uses it for Carbahn. Dinan wanted to keep the higher margin products (exhaust, intakes, etc.)

Again, this is anecdotal and just my point of view, so please take it with a grain of salt from my experience and not objective fact.
Usually don't get into the weeds on these posts but thought I would correct a few things before disinformation was spread.

1. Graphs on the website are created in Excel as they are an average of numerous dyno pulls. They are also done so that you can easily decipher numbers at any major RPM in terms of peak power, power by RPM and gain at each RPM. They are not intended to deceive -- furthest thing from it actually, as the purpose is to eliminate the tendency to use glory pulls as the basis of expected output.

2. We actually have 3 dyno's on site (4 if you include the engine dyno) with talks of adding yet another. 2 AWD Mustang dyno's and an AWD Dynapack cell (same as Carbahn). We use all three and have them callibrated so they all report the same measurements (within a very small percentage of error at least). The purpose is so that no matter what dyno the car may be on we get the same numbers as cars are constantly being shifted around the various dyno's every day.

3. The engine shop was sold back to Carbahn/Steve simply because it did not fit the model of a private equity owned business. Profitability is possible in it but it also requires constant work and a champion to lead that cause with interacting personally with vendors, investors, etc. Its a very different business then one that is built around serving the consumer market specifically -- especially at scale. That said, the value of an engine shop is not lost on us and we (APR/Dinan) continue to house a small engine shop on site. Its purpose is not to build engines but rather to test them and the associated products for weaknesses and abilities.
First, thanks for responding to this thread and providing first hand information. Always good when vendors actually engage with the enthusiast base, so don't scoff at getting into "the weeds" with customers. However, since I have been singled out here, let me just share my own final personal thoughts on Dinan on this thread:

Don't see how what you said was that different than what I said. In fact, it looks like it's center of mass except maybe the dyno. Not spreading any disinformation. Just giving my opinion and thoughts based on research and what the public can see with available information. Which is why I couch everything in "IIRC" or "anecdotal", etc. If you don't like how the public has evolved to look at your company, I would suggest hiring a good PR firm to gain back the trust of your former loyal customers.

Before your post, I was actually not against going Dinan, and still thought you were a decent company, and wrote my posts trying hard not to frame Dinan in a very bad light to dissuade others from making their own decisions like some others on here do with other vendors.

But your point #3 is sufficient enough for me, personally, not to really want to explore much more with your company anymore. In my line of work I've seen PE money ruin many a company, but to see a company admit it openly that PE money is shifting its focus, is a first.

To point #1 I never said it was intended to deceive. Just that I like raw data. And given Steve's history, he never has an issue sharing raw data + context. But I'm just 1 customer, and if others don't care, that's not your problem.

Again, I'm just one person, so who cares if I don't want certain Dinan products anymore (I get that it's not the point of your post to persuade me, but just want to make it clear to others that I'm not some oracle or source of absolute truth). You still have a decent amount of loyal customers and more companies in the market is better than Dinan no longer existing.

I wish your company all the best, but it's not for me anymore.

And who am I? No one. So no skin off your back.
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      05-04-2020, 10:40 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Don't see how what you said was that different than what I said. In fact, it looks like it's center of mass except maybe the dyno. Not spreading any disinformation. Just giving my opinion and thoughts based on research and what the public can see with available information. Which is why I couch everything in "IIRC" or "anecdotal", etc. If you don't like how the public has evolved to look at your company, I would suggest hiring a good PR firm to gain back the trust of your former loyal customers.

Before your post, I was actually not against going Dinan, and still thought you were a decent company. But your point #3 is sufficient enough for me not to really want to explore much more with your company anymore. In my line of work I've seen PE money ruin many a company, but to see a company admit it openly, is a first.

That being said, I'm just one person, so who cares if I don't want certain Dinan products anymore. You still have a decent amount of loyal customers and more companies in the market is better than Dinan no longer existing.

I wish your company all the best, but it's not for me anymore.

And who am I? No one. So no skin off your back.
What you posted wasnt disinformation in itself and you couched it which is fine. I was simply clarifying so what was presented as opinion had an explanation/counterpoint is all.

Anyway, sorry to hear you wont be considering Dinan products in the future but wish you the best with Carbahn. Having worked with most of that staff for many years I am sure its a quality product.
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      05-04-2020, 10:47 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Don't see how what you said was that different than what I said. In fact, it looks like it's center of mass except maybe the dyno. Not spreading any disinformation. Just giving my opinion and thoughts based on research and what the public can see with available information. Which is why I couch everything in "IIRC" or "anecdotal", etc. If you don't like how the public has evolved to look at your company, I would suggest hiring a good PR firm to gain back the trust of your former loyal customers.

Before your post, I was actually not against going Dinan, and still thought you were a decent company. But your point #3 is sufficient enough for me not to really want to explore much more with your company anymore. In my line of work I've seen PE money ruin many a company, but to see a company admit it openly, is a first.

That being said, I'm just one person, so who cares if I don't want certain Dinan products anymore. You still have a decent amount of loyal customers and more companies in the market is better than Dinan no longer existing.

I wish your company all the best, but it's not for me anymore.

And who am I? No one. So no skin off your back.
What you posted wasnt disinformation in itself and you couched it which is fine. I was simply clarifying so what was presented as opinion had an explanation/counterpoint is all.

Anyway, sorry to hear you wont be considering Dinan products in the future but wish you the best with Carbahn. Having worked with most of that staff for many years I am sure its a quality product.
Agreed. And appreciate the quick response. Your customer engagement is noticed and appreciated.

And did not mean imply that I would no longer want to buy all Dinan products (you guys still make very good suspension components), just the tune.

At the end of the day, no one on here should really be making any purchases based on just my feedback. I hope they, like I did, look at all the publicly available info out there and make their own informed decisions.
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      05-04-2020, 02:07 PM   #39
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UPDATE:

I just got off the phone with the head representative regarding the Carbahn warranty(hate to say I forgot his name). He was helpful and knew exactly what I was looking for. Needless to say I'm extremely impressed.

He told me Carbahn's warranty was compatible with my catless downpipes and Burger Motorsports uncovered intake. He did mention that aftermarket intakes which included some sort of addition behind the front grill(ie. air scoops, front mount intakes, etc.) have a possibility to suck water into the engine. These intakes are not compatible with the warranty.

Finally, he said their warranties are handled in house and reviewed on a case-by-case basis, rather than through a third party warranty provider. When you submit your warranty paperwork it is reviewed by him, passed to Steve Dinan, and subsequently approved.

Hope this info helps! I figured I'd pass it along here to save them endless phone calls. I plan on pulling the trigger on a warrantied tune for my 2019 M2C within the next few months and will do a full review in the near future.

EDIT: Furthering on the aftermarket intake inquiry, any aftermarket intake was fine, so long as it was safe from outside water.

Last edited by waldrops; 05-04-2020 at 02:08 PM.. Reason: Additional info
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      05-07-2020, 12:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by 2020M2Competition View Post
If I do decide to go with a warrantied tune, I think I might actually be better off with just the basic Dinan + tune given my skill level and preference for a more linear power curve
I think the graphs are a bit deceptive. If you look at the actual torque numbers per RPM, they are not that different. Of course it is late and maybe I'm not reading it well.
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      05-12-2020, 07:46 AM   #41
ONLYA6
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Installed my Carbahn tune last night. Definite improvement in the midrange. 3rd gear around 4K will gear squirrelly if the tires are cold. Pulls hard to 7500. Sure power tapers off on the dyno graph but real world it's not like you feel what you're seeing.

DCT owners should purchase a kickdown switch lockout tab from BMS. No need for that extra gear drop now. WOT kickdown to 4-5k is the perfect spot.

I would recommend. Putting it on the dyno in a week or so.
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      05-12-2020, 10:13 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLYA6 View Post
Installed my Carbahn tune last night. Definite improvement in the midrange. 3rd gear around 4K will gear squirrelly if the tires are cold. Pulls hard to 7500. Sure power tapers off on the dyno graph but real world it's not like you feel what you're seeing.

DCT owners should purchase a kickdown switch lockout tab from BMS. No need for that extra gear drop now. WOT kickdown to 4-5k is the perfect spot.

I would recommend. Putting it on the dyno in a week or so.
Your point about going to redline is exactly my experience.
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      05-12-2020, 12:30 PM   #43
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Well, well, well. Color me excited. My tune (carbahn) is being installed as I type. Thanks for the reviews everyone, it was incredibly helpful in selecting a tune.
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      05-12-2020, 02:31 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLYA6 View Post
Installed my Carbahn tune last night. Definite improvement in the midrange. 3rd gear around 4K will gear squirrelly if the tires are cold. Pulls hard to 7500. Sure power tapers off on the dyno graph but real world it's not like you feel what you're seeing.

I would recommend. Putting it on the dyno in a week or so.
Thanks for sharing

Not a lot of reviews out there on the Carbahn tune so I really appreciate reading some of your thoughts

If you do get it on the dyno please share the results with us
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