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      02-26-2020, 12:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienrocs View Post
Awesome. Is that fronts only? Good to hear some positive feedback about them.
jritt@essex can you let us know if the 3.12 is available for the stock BMW rear brakes?

I honestly don’t remember if we got them for all four corners on my car, or if I ran 1.11s in the back.
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      02-26-2020, 12:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Yeah, I've always been tough on the brakes. It's where I make most of my time up on track vs other guys around me.

For background, I color shifted my stock blue brakes with PFC 08s on just their second day. No cooling mods at that point.

And, agreed on your thoughts regarding homebrew brake cooling mods, especially on street cars. That's why I only cut away some of the protection plates to point air into the center from the GT3 scoops: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=16

The scoops did help on my next outings, but I still would get fade so I moved to the AP's.

The AP's work great, but as I added power and more rubber I would get fade with the 1.11's after 20-25min on hot summer open lapping sessions when I was pushing it. If I backed off a lap, the pad fade would go away.

I've added more power since then and the 3.12s have still never faded on me, but I eventually need to get some AP's on the back to help out...
Understood. The air deflector on the control can stay and is likely helpful, but we would strongly suggest removing those modified dust shields.

Many people think about cooling in terms of airflow. What few consider is radiation, which is crucial at track temperatures. Those dust shields don't allow the heat to radiate away from the disc. Instead, they reflect the heat right back at the inner disc face, causing it to run at a higher temperature than the outside face. That temperature differential creates stress on the disc that tends to produce premature cracks, and could potentially have a big impact on any pad fade you're experiencing.

Again, we always recommend removing the dust shields. It's one of the first recommended steps in all of our install manuals. They hold the heat on the inner disc face and cook everything!
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      02-26-2020, 12:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
jritt@essex can you let us know if the 3.12 is available for the stock BMW rear brakes?

I honestly don’t remember if we got them for all four corners on my car, or if I ran 1.11s in the back.
Another good point...I addressed this in a separate Ferodo thread. If you're running a higher mu front pad than you are in the rear, you're shifting bias forward and placing a greater load on your front brakes.

I know for sure we have the DS3.12 compound in the rear M2 Competition shape: https://www.essexparts.com/ferodo-fc...312-brake-pads

I believe Ferodo may have just released the standard M2 rear shape (blue calipers) as well. Let me check on that one please.
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      02-26-2020, 01:07 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post
Another good point...I addressed this in a separate Ferodo thread. If you're running a higher mu front pad than you are in the rear, you're shifting bias forward and placing a greater load on your front brakes.

I know for sure we have the DS3.12 compound in the rear M2 Competition shape: https://www.essexparts.com/ferodo-fc...312-brake-pads

I believe Ferodo may have just released the standard M2 rear shape (blue calipers) as well. Let me check on that one please.
I looked in my notes and confirmed I ran UNO’s and 1.11s in the rear OEM blue calipers, along with 3.12 in the AP’s upfront.

Hopefully Ferodo has the 3.12 in the rear blue caliper pad shape now.
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      02-26-2020, 02:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Yeah, I've always been tough on the brakes. It's where I make most of my time up on track vs other guys around me.

For background, I color shifted my stock blue brakes with PFC 08s on just their second day. No cooling mods at that point.

And, agreed on your thoughts regarding homebrew brake cooling mods, especially on street cars. That's why I only cut away some of the protection plates to point air into the center from the GT3 scoops: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8;postcount=16

The scoops did help on my next outings, but I still would get fade so I moved to the AP's.

The AP's work great, but as I added power and more rubber I would get fade with the 1.11's after 20-25min on hot summer open lapping sessions when I was pushing it. If I backed off a lap, the pad fade would go away.

I've added more power since then and the 3.12s have still never faded on me, but I eventually need to get some AP's on the back to help out...
Understood. The air deflector on the control can stay and is likely helpful, but we would strongly suggest removing those modified dust shields.

Many people think about cooling in terms of airflow. What few consider is radiation, which is crucial at track temperatures. Those dust shields don't allow the heat to radiate away from the disc. Instead, they reflect the heat right back at the inner disc face, causing it to run at a higher temperature than the outside face. That temperature differential creates stress on the disc that tends to produce premature cracks, and could potentially have a big impact on any pad fade you're experiencing.

Again, we always recommend removing the dust shields. It's one of the first recommended steps in all of our install manuals. They hold the heat on the inner disc face and cook everything!
Will removing the sheilds promote ball-joints boot wear etc. ? Is it still a good idea on dual duty car that sees street usage?
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      02-27-2020, 08:56 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
Any comments on Raybestos ST43 ?

Apparently they are smooth on rotors and very good.
ST43's are awesome pads. Just like Carbotechs Xp12's , and Porterfield R4's they won't eat your rotors when cold. They have decent cold bite as well.

Anyone of these 3 pads are about as close to a "best of all worlds" pad.

If you stand on your brakes like ZM2, then these might not last as long :-)
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      02-27-2020, 09:20 AM   #29
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It looks like ZM2 is onto a great pad compound..

I wonder how much this pad will eat rotors for street driving.

Here's a nice article from RennLst...

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...s3-12-a-2.html
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      02-27-2020, 09:39 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
Will removing the sheilds promote ball-joints boot wear etc. ? Is it still a good idea on dual duty car that sees street usage?
When you remove the dust shields, you can put a little piece of heat shield over the ball joints. We have an incredible heat-barrier product called Teknofibra. We sell rolls of it to pro race teams, and they use it all over the car. You can literally hold it in your hand, put a blow torch to it, and you won't feel it on the other side!

The splash shields aren't solving any major issue on the street unless you're routinely driving your car through nasty gunk (mud, dirt, gobs of salt). They do more harm than good on any car that is tracked, so that's why we always recommend their removal.
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      02-27-2020, 09:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES View Post
It looks like ZM2 is onto a great pad compound..

I wonder how much this pad will eat rotors for street driving.

Here's a nice article from RennLst...

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...s3-12-a-2.html
I switch over to my DS2500's for the street. The 1.11 & 3.12 will squeal pretty decently on the street, whereas the 2500 only does every now and then.

Plus, it's nice not needing to rebed b/n pad compounds. All the Ferodo's are "compatible" so you don't have to remove the previous pad transfer layer and lay a new one down. The brakes are good to go when switching b/n the different Ferodo's.
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      02-27-2020, 09:53 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post
When you remove the dust shields, you can put a little piece of heat shield over the ball joints. We have an incredible heat-barrier product called Teknofibra. We sell rolls of it to pro race teams, and they use it all over the car. You can literally hold it in your hand, put a blow torch to it, and you won't feel it on the other side!

The splash shields aren't solving any major issue on the street unless you're routinely driving your car through nasty gunk (mud, dirt, gobs of salt). They do more harm than good on any car that is tracked, so that's why we always recommend their removal.
Is using the Teknofibra tape vs the sheets good enough for this purpose?
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      02-27-2020, 10:04 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES View Post
It looks like ZM2 is onto a great pad compound..

I wonder how much this pad will eat rotors for street driving.

Here's a nice article from RennLst...

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...s3-12-a-2.html

The Ferodo DS3.12 is an incredible compound, and they are verypopular among the Porsche GT3 crowd. A large number of our AP Racing brake kit customers have transitioned over to them as well. Ferodo has slowly been adding more shapes to their DS3.12 offerings, and we now have them for both the standard blue M2 calipers front and rear, and the M2 Competition calipers front and rear.

I just finished up an article on our Essex Blog about the DS3.12 the other day. I've been rolling around on the street with them on my C6 vette track/street and they work great on the road...excellent feel cold, not hurting the discs, and haven't made any appreciable noise. On the track they are fantastic...possibly the best pad I've ever used. They are truly world-class pads, and among the very best we've ever tested on our brake dyno as well. Ferodo has been winning GT races with them in Europe on Lambos and Audis as well.

Here's some recent feedback on the DS3.12 from a Porsche Cup driver after winning his first race on them.

Ferodo DS3.12 M2 Competition OEM shapes:

Front= https://www.essexparts.com/ferodo-fc...brake-pads3846

Rear= https://www.essexparts.com/ferodo-fc...312-brake-pads

Ferodo DS3.12 M2 Standard Blue brakes OEM shapes:


We're in the process of getting these up on our website, but we do have them on order with Ferodo in the front and rear shapes for the standard M2 blue brakes.

Last edited by jritt@essex; 02-27-2020 at 10:10 AM..
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      02-27-2020, 01:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Is using the Teknofibra tape vs the sheets good enough for this purpose?
No. The tape is just to hold pieces of material together. The standard 2mm and 4mm material has the insulation on the back of the shiny side.

I'm going to look at designing some ball joint kits. We currently sell it by the linear foot, but that's far more than would be required for this use. This stuff is incredible, and would be perfect for this application. Thanks.

ZM2...I'm gonna need you to guinea pig since you're evil to your brakes. Are you up for it?

Last edited by jritt@essex; 02-27-2020 at 01:53 PM..
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      02-27-2020, 02:11 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post
No. The tape is just to hold pieces of material together. The standard 2mm and 4mm material has the insulation on the back of the shiny side.

I'm going to look at designing some ball joint kits. We currently sell it by the linear foot, but that's far more than would be required for this use. This stuff is incredible, and would be perfect for this application. Thanks.

ZM2...I'm gonna need you to guinea pig since you're evil to your brakes. Are you up for it?
Sounds good, Sir.

I also convinced a buddy of mine with a tuned F80 M3 to buy the front AP’s and 3.12s all around before our next track day in early April. So, your sales team will be hearing from him soon.

He’s as hard on the brakes as me, and we’ll be taking turns all day long at an open track event at High Plains outside of Denver. So, that may be a better guinea pig test before I get the M2 back out.

Hit me up and I’ll give you his info. He has some auto engineering & design in his background, so we’ll be able to get you good data.
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