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      04-10-2017, 09:04 PM   #67
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Well shit & my car just went under Production. Lol canceling order haha jk
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      04-10-2017, 09:07 PM   #68
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Well shit & my car just went under Production. Lol canceling order haha jk
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      04-10-2017, 09:13 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Levente_CSL View Post
i really could seriously bet my neck on that in the future will be an m2 CSL. but looks like there wont be any. just a CS and a GTS. cant believe this. i really thought there will be a csl down the line..
Only problem with that theory is they would be priced out of range for most to afford. This gives those of us without $1M to spend on a vehicle an opportunity to own an exclusive car. They sold the i8 as a non-limited car (honestly that could ALMOST have been a limited run trophy car) and it's been bought up well-enough but it isn't quite as special as it could have been if only 500 were ever made.
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      04-10-2017, 09:20 PM   #70
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M2 CS probally going to see it for $100K CDN
M2 GTS $140K+ CDN.... for a 2 series...
hmm idk... sounds like a financial mistake lol
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      04-10-2017, 09:21 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm View Post
Only problem with that theory is they would be priced out of range for most to afford. This gives those of us without $1M to spend on a vehicle an opportunity to own an exclusive car. They sold the i8 as a non-limited car (honestly that could ALMOST have been a limited run trophy car) and it's been bought up well-enough but it isn't quite as special as it could have been if only 500 were ever made.
If I manufactured cars I'd limit everything. I'd even limit the packages and options. People would buy the crap out of my cars.
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      04-10-2017, 09:49 PM   #72
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First M experience:

-Get an M2
-Enjoy it for a few months
-BMW spits in my face (ala m coupe/m235 to m240)

I just hope the M2 CS turns out FWD...

Last edited by zmo; 04-10-2017 at 10:48 PM..
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      04-10-2017, 10:59 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by zmo View Post
First M experience:

-Get an M2
-Enjoy it for a few months
-BMW spits in my face (ala m coupe/m235 to m240)

I just hope the M2 CS turns out FWD...
Apparently you've never purchased a product before ?

Or.. do you have posts in other forums like ..


First computer experience ..
First IPhone experience...
First HDTV experience ..


Or .. my favorite...
"First Porsche Experience"....

Seriously.. enjoy your M2. Or.. sell it asap and get in line ...
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      04-10-2017, 11:03 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by RBNetEngr View Post
This post is very relevant. One of the repeated praises for the M2 is, as shipped from BMW, it has the right combination of suspension and power to make it a well-balanced car. If you've increased the power by 40-50hp, did you make any changes to the suspension to compensate? If not, why blame BMW?

And besides, the track is really the only place that you can reliably and safely use everything that the M2 comes with from BMW. I'm still at a loss to understand how many people line up power, brake, suspension mods, etc., as soon as they buy something like an M2. It's a car that comes from BMW way more capable than virtually any purchaser is (regardless of what you really believe about your driving capabilities). So, rather than spend thousands on a tune to gain some moderate HP, why not spend it on track time, so you can learn to drive it closer to the cars' capabilities?

-rb
True...drive it on the track stock. It will tell you what it needs. I learned a LOT driving my e36 325 on the track before I updated the suspension, then the whole car. A co-worker who owns a porsche was amazed that I could live without an adjustable suspension. I drove what I had for several years, then adjusted spring stiffness and shocks to suit. HPDEs are by far the best money you can spend in your car.
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      04-10-2017, 11:06 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Highly unlikely.
Apparently 20% of the M2 were ordered with a manual. The GTS being DCT only probably makes sense but not the CS.

This is really bad. More people like F87LUV will start moving to used porsches then.
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      04-10-2017, 11:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Highly unlikely.
Apparently 20% of the M2 were ordered with a manual. The GTS being DCT only probably makes sense but not the CS.

This is really bad. More people like F87LUV will start moving to used porsches then.

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      04-10-2017, 11:10 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Highly unlikely.
Apparently 20% of the M2 were ordered with a manual. The GTS being DCT only probably makes sense but not the CS.

This is really bad. More people like F87LUV will start moving to used porsches then.
If 20 percent of M2 owners want an M2 and they got it..... There are at least 15 percent of the 80 percent that got DCT and regret their decision ... or.. more than likely bought the DCT that was *ordered by the dealer * .. particularly for those that purchased 2016 HEA cars ..

The bottom line is that 20 percent is NOT an accurate figure based on the end buyer ordering what they want.


Even still .. let the " 20 percent" of M2 GTS or CS buyers do the same. It's not like BMW AG is going to develop a whole new gearbox for the CS or GTS. . It's going to be the same one as the lower models and the only thing that makes the difference is if you are trying to make more profit by adding in the DCT or for lap times for the press and for bench racers.

However ... If BMW AG chooses to keep the M4 GTS as it's hottest car (ever ) then the M2 GTS should actually be sold in manual only ...

You see how I use the Jedi mind trick...
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      04-10-2017, 11:19 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
If 20 percent of M2 owners want an M2.

Then let the 20 percent of M2 GTS or CS buyers do the same. It's not like they are going to develop a whole new gearbox. It's going to be the same one as the lower models and the only thing that makes the difference is if you are trying to make more profit by adding in the DCT or for lap times.


However ... If BMW AG chooses to keep the M4 GTS as it's hottest car (ever ) then the M2 GTS should actually be sold in manual only ...

You see how I use the Jedi mind trick...
Ah ha.

Had to read it a few times but makes sense. I sincerely hope BMW AG does want to keep the M4 GTS as the hottest car and is looking at this post right now.

They'd be nodding their heads like I am.

Edit: When it comes to a car like the M2 GTS/CSL, I would like to think that a higher percentage of the buyers would want a manual than the percentage that went with the manual in the M2 because I think and hope that it'd be people who really like driving (and rowing their own gears) who'd be buying these cars. It would also be an older age group which probably learnt to drive on manual transmission and would love to have a car like that with serious performance.

Last edited by Gatte; 04-10-2017 at 11:27 PM..
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      04-10-2017, 11:28 PM   #79
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I realize everyone is thinking about their own situation and what this news means to them but I want to take a step back and say this is a great day for enthusiasts. BMW is doubling down on the M brand and broadening the range with some potentially seriously kick ass cars. This is awesome.
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      04-10-2017, 11:28 PM   #80
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and fueling
Nah just a tune and E30.
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      04-10-2017, 11:33 PM   #81
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Quote:
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I realize everyone is thinking about their own situation and what this news means to them but I want to take a step back and say this is a great day for enthusiasts. BMW is doubling down on the M brand and broadening the range with some potentially seriously kick ass cars. This is awesome.
This is actually true. However, if BMW was really trying to look out for the enthusiasts, they should be making these cars with a manual transmission (Not saying that people buying DCTs are not enthusiasts). Porsche brought back the manual transmission for the new GT3 even though it's half a second slower to 60.

I can't believe Van Meel actually said manual transmissions are bad from an engineering perspective because of whatever reasons he gave in his interview.

That's the sort of thing someone from the i-department of BMW should be saying, not the head of the M division. Just my opinion.
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      04-10-2017, 11:59 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I realize everyone is thinking about their own situation and what this news means to them but I want to take a step back and say this is a great day for enthusiasts. BMW is doubling down on the M brand and broadening the range with some potentially seriously kick ass cars. This is awesome.
This is actually true. However, if BMW was really trying to look out for the enthusiasts, they should be making these cars with a manual transmission. Porsche equipped the new GT3 with a manual transmission even though it's half a second slower to 60.

I can't believe Van Meel actually said manual transmissions are bad from an engineering perspective because of whatever reasons he gave in his interview.

That's the sort of thing someone from the i-department of BMW should be saying, not the head of the M division. Just my opinion.
I can give you a list of reasons why an automatic transmission is better for the manufacturer.

1- charge additional Markup on sale
2- not as easily damaged on test drive/loaner
3- when out of warranty - a higher failure rate than manual = more sales in service department
4- shorter lifespan than manual - see above
5- less likely for wear /tear on a lease vehicle
6- when a failure occurs - they connect a computer to it and tell you a solenoid has failed- Diagnostic time measured in minutes compared to diagnosing a failing manual transmission

7 - replacement parts are more expensive and more $$ money $$ for service departments to replace an entire transmission for $ 6-7K than to replace a clutch, a clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder , or throw out bearing .. any of which could be replaced for a fraction of the price of an auto trans - let alone DCT-auto
( even MO money ... ).

8 - buyers with sticker shock from an proposed auto transmission failure tend to trade in and buy.... another auto transmission


So.. in addition to being " bad " from an engineering perspective according to Van Meel... manuals are HORRIBLE from a profit perspective when it comes to new car sales, parts department sales , service department sales .. pretty much the entire dealership !

Don't believe the hype - that "customers don't want manuals " ... in sports cars.

Manufacturers have been trying hard to sell sports car customers on their autoboxes with fancy names like " Tiptronic" and "DCT... and after decades they even made the autobox faster than a manual.

And yet still... Spots car Customers are leading a REVOLT and manufacturers are having to give way... and continue to offer manuals.


BMW has been trying to kill the 5 speed in the US M5 for decades ... they have finally done it by making it as big as a 7 series and making it AWD.
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      04-11-2017, 12:18 AM   #83
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Ready to buy a used AW M2 with DCT and Exec Package on the West Coast...
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      04-11-2017, 12:45 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I realize everyone is thinking about their own situation and what this news means to them but I want to take a step back and say this is a great day for enthusiasts. BMW is doubling down on the M brand and broadening the range with some potentially seriously kick ass cars. This is awesome.
This is actually true. However, if BMW was really trying to look out for the enthusiasts, they should be making these cars with a manual transmission. Porsche equipped the new GT3 with a manual transmission even though it's half a second slower to 60.

I can't believe Van Meel actually said manual transmissions are bad from an engineering perspective because of whatever reasons he gave in his interview.

That's the sort of thing someone from the i-department of BMW should be saying, not the head of the M division. Just my opinion.
I can give you a list of reasons why an automatic transmission is better for the manufacturer.

1- charge additional Markup on sale
2- not as easily damaged on test drive/loaner
3- when out of warranty - a higher failure rate than manual = more sales in service department
4- shorter lifespan than manual - see above
5- less likely for wear /tear on a lease vehicle
6- when a failure occurs - they connect a computer to it and tell you a solenoid has failed- Diagnostic time measured in minutes compared to diagnosing a failing manual transmission

7 - replacement parts are more expensive and more $$ money $$ for service departments to replace an entire transmission for $ 6-7K than to replace a clutch, a clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder , or throw out bearing .. any of which could be replaced for a fraction of the price of an auto trans - let alone DCT-auto
( even MO money ... ).

8 - buyers with sticker shock from an proposed auto transmission failure tend to trade in and buy.... another auto transmission


So.. in addition to being " bad " from an engineering perspective according to Van Meel... manuals are HORRIBLE from a profit perspective when it comes to new car sales, parts department sales , service department sales .. pretty much the entire dealership !

Don't believe the hype - that "customers don't want manuals " ... in sports cars.

Manufacturers have been trying hard to sell sports car customers on their autoboxes with fancy names like " Tiptronic" and "DCT... and after decades they even made the autobox faster than a manual.

And yet still... Spots car Customers are leading a REVOLT and manufacturers are having to give way... and continue to offer manuals.


BMW has been trying to kill the 5 speed in the US M5 for decades ... they have finally done it by making it as big as a 7 series and making it AWD.
Wow thanks for that Mulder! What does Scully say? Just so we are clear is Ferrari, Maserati, Lambo, Aston and McLaren part of the conspiracy? Just so we all know when will they be "giving way" and bring back manuals?
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      04-11-2017, 12:54 AM   #85
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Page 4 and not one mention of M-mirrors?
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      04-11-2017, 01:23 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I can give you a list of reasons why an automatic transmission is better for the manufacturer.

1- charge additional Markup on sale
2- not as easily damaged on test drive/loaner
3- when out of warranty - a higher failure rate than manual = more sales in service department
4- shorter lifespan than manual - see above
5- less likely for wear /tear on a lease vehicle
6- when a failure occurs - they connect a computer to it and tell you a solenoid has failed- Diagnostic time measured in minutes compared to diagnosing a failing manual transmission

7 - replacement parts are more expensive and more $$ money $$ for service departments to replace an entire transmission for $ 6-7K than to replace a clutch, a clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder , or throw out bearing .. any of which could be replaced for a fraction of the price of an auto trans - let alone DCT-auto
( even MO money ... ).

8 - buyers with sticker shock from an proposed auto transmission failure tend to trade in and buy.... another auto transmission


So.. in addition to being " bad " from an engineering perspective according to Van Meel... manuals are HORRIBLE from a profit perspective when it comes to new car sales, parts department sales , service department sales .. pretty much the entire dealership !

Don't believe the hype - that "customers don't want manuals " ... in sports cars.

Manufacturers have been trying hard to sell sports car customers on their autoboxes with fancy names like " Tiptronic" and "DCT... and after decades they even made the autobox faster than a manual.

And yet still... Spots car Customers are leading a REVOLT and manufacturers are having to give way... and continue to offer manuals.


BMW has been trying to kill the 5 speed in the US M5 for decades ... they have finally done it by making it as big as a 7 series and making it AWD.
A lot of this makes sense. I'd never thought about it too much. The worst thing is that a lot of people (At least in the US) don't even know to drive a stick anymore. Most of them who do, would prefer an automatic when given a choice. Also, almost everybody who learns to drive now, learns it on an automatic. In a few years, manuals will basically become non existent because most of the sports car customers will not know how to drive a manual.

Either that or there will be a lot fewer sports car customers.

Edit: Not too many people will even be driving in a few years I guess.
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      04-11-2017, 01:45 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Some interesting info surfaced in the M2 section of the German forum '2erTalk' (sources: here, here and here):
  • January 2018: M2 CS ordering process starts
  • March 2018: M2 CS goes into production | S55 engine | 410 hp | no limited edition
  • March 2019: M2 GTS goes into production | S55 engine | 450 hp | limited edition/production (the '999' figure has been heard, but could change)
Time will tell if the above information is accurate. Interesting, to say the least. First time that I read that the M2 GTS is definitely scheduled. I thought it was just some pipe dream. But actually, this could make sense if you consider BMW M special models history: a limited edition M2 GTS as the final curtain call for the first-generation M2 (end of production: 2020).

Below: screenshot shows that the M2 CS is scheduled to go into production in March 2018 at the BMW Leipzig factory (source: here)
(note 1: "F87CS" is mentioned, rather than "F87COMP" or "F87COMPETITION"; note 2: where is the F87 M2 LCI ?!):

Attachment 1604086
So no M2 LCI july 2017 ???
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      04-11-2017, 01:54 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I realize everyone is thinking about their own situation and what this news means to them but I want to take a step back and say this is a great day for enthusiasts. BMW is doubling down on the M brand and broadening the range with some potentially seriously kick ass cars. This is awesome.
Nice to see some positive vibes. I agree. The M2 was a moment in M and I hope it is one that is not unique.
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