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      01-20-2014, 05:43 PM   #89
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Thanks for the deluge of new information Scott!

I am very excited about the upcoming M2. However I have one big concern. The fact that a turbo 4 will be used will place the car in all new territory for an M car. Never before has an M car had to contend in such a crowded and competitive category since the original M3:

Front engine, Rear wheel drive, 4 cylinder.

The E30 M3 competed against rivals of its era within this same class, however it did so with the provenance of being a homoglation special for a truly historic race car. All the competitors mainly from the Japanese companies could not claim as much, as thus were never true direct competitors to the E30 M3.

That brings us to today. The M2 when released in 2-3 years will come without any sort of homoglation provenance, and will not have the same purity and focus for existence as the E30 M3 did. This being said, the M2 will be playing on a much more level and robust playing field with the competition.

The BRS/FRS will almost definitely have a turbo version out by the time the M2 is released. The Kia GT4 Stinger concept will likely become a reality. The next Miata is going to be amazing guaranteed. Nissan will almost definitely throw its hat into the game. Honda will likely wake up from its slumber and make a go at the game it used to be a leader at. The new Mustang is even coming into the segment and will be a true player, meaning definitely Chevy and maybe even Chrysler/Fiat will jump on-board.

I think it is clear where this is going, that almost every automaker is going to have a front engine, Rear wheel drive, 4 cylinder. Sure BMW's M division has the ability and history to knock this out of the park, but what worries me most is that they are just going to acquiesce right into the same exact game as everyone else, just at a higher price point. There won't be the uniqueness of a high-revving naturally aspirated engine or the uniqueness of an inline-6. The M2 will just be the most expensive and likely best of a massively competitive segment.

All the carbon fiber will definitely help along with the premium BMW badge, but when someone can take their pick of the extreme competition that will take place in the 20-50k segment... having the best one that costs 50k plus will be an uncomfortable position to be in. BMW will be asking for a premium price, on their entrant into what will come to be the "low-end" battleground of the performance market (at least in the eyes of those with the means to afford a 50k plus car). BMW will be asking the most money, in the least prestigious segment.

Personally, I feel like the M2 should have something that makes it stand out other than just more carbon fiber, a higher price point, and a BMW M reputation behind it. The car should innovate, it should do and be something different from the crowd.

Here are my suggestions, any of which alone would be enough to make it stand out:

1. High revving, naturally aspirated 4 cylinder. Buck the trend, do just one engine for the old schoolers. Or even better do a high revving, naturally aspirated 6 cylinder and blow everyone's minds and create an instant legend and attainable halo car.

2. A KERS system. Allowing an instant boost in acceleration at strategic times without the silliness and weight of a typical hybrid system. F1 tech tie-ins never hurt.

3. Active Aero or DRS or some kind, this however assumes that M2 would have large wings and spoilers. Taking a bit of F1 tech that is done in a simple/efficient manner would go a long way towards creating a racing pedigree.

4. Release it with true carbon bucket seats that fold and have side airbags built in. Porsche did it in 2008 and it was available in the US market. There is no reason BMW can't do that same.



Sorry for the length, but I just wanted to give all my thoughts now while they may still matter.
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      01-20-2014, 05:51 PM   #90
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Bring it on then Scott and why two year wait. One year is a long time. I think offering a high revving 4 cylinder that sounds great would be awesome. What about going Posrche new hybrid super car style. High revving great sounding 4 cylinder with 9K rpm redline and electric motor for instant fuel efficiency and torque from 0 rpm.

You guys already have a fantastic engine in your liter class super bike why not use that in conjunction with a regenerative battery pack modified from i3 to make a truly unique class leading M2. That offers great fuel economy and performance like no other and keep the engine note of that liter class superbike 1000rr and bring down the rpms to 9K. A fighter jet sound and daily drive-ability, and fuel economy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Drop two cylinders of the Autoexpress article.

BMW want the fastest four cylinder car in its segment. They also want the M2 to be the most progressive and dynamic car in its segment as well as the lightest performance car. They want a car that has a soul, unlike the Mercedes-Benz AMG A45/CLA 45 which are soulless to drive.
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      01-20-2014, 05:52 PM   #91
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OMG this car is insane and sexie
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      01-20-2014, 05:58 PM   #92
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He said he does not like current M5/M6 offerings they have lost that BMW flavor and he is right. How do you equate that to him not liking E92 M3 one of the best M cars produced.



Quote:
Originally Posted by brio View Post
So, if you feel this way, why do you drive an E92 M3?
Shouldn't you be in an AMG?
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      01-20-2014, 05:59 PM   #93
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Hi there,

I've been a long anti-4pot on a sporty Bimmer but after having tried an M135i which was fast but not thrilling compared to my N/A 130i E82 I think it makes sense.

Seeing the good lightweight stuff they're doing with M3/M4, I love the idea of a lightweight M2 just because they could manage to drop the weight to something around 1300kg.

Would be so cool to drive on mountain roads.

I'm going to store my baby E82 and drive instead an E30 318is.
Going back to less sticky, funnier to play with car.
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      01-20-2014, 06:00 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
Some BMW M2 speculative renderings:























Tuned n55 derivative or a detuned m4 engine....I don't care, I'd buy it as a weekend/track/mid life crisis car!!
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      01-20-2014, 06:05 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brio View Post
Well...all the doubters just got Richard Sheman-ed.
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      01-20-2014, 06:07 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmcclane
I can't believe this bullsh*t!
Turbo engine only? hm ok..., ugly rear lights? hm ok..., cheap interior? hm ok..., and so on... but a soulless 4cyl.? really? are you kidding me? no way. Keep that crap BMW or save it for some ppl who wants a 10-20kg lighter car and are naive enough to believe in some high revving 4 cyl...
Really great work BMW.
I think some of the previous Evo, STI, and other tc-4 campers would disagree.

If done right, a lightweight 4 cylinder engine in a light weight chassis would be pretty epic. Water to air intercooler from the M4, higher boost, OMG=sex.

Test drive a 328i and 335i and tell me which one is lighter to the touch...
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      01-20-2014, 06:07 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
When I report I always add not finalised or under discussion on some threads because it is under conception. I am not 100% correct all the time! but at that time what I hear is the decision , discussion etc at that point in time.
Of course not everything is the final decision and that things agreed on a Friday morning could be undone by Monday afternoon.

Some posts are marketing because of the decisions made and the reasons for doing so.

At that specific time I only knew M3 and M4 were in launch colors for the NAIAS. When I saw the black one I thought it would raised on a platform in the same way BMW do for International auto shows.
Thanks, Scott. I, of course, didn't mean to call you out on the NAIAS thing. That's more or less the point I was trying to make to everyone. I believe you have the community's interests at heart when you post, and I mean it genuinely when I say I deeply appreciate what you contribute.

I'm still an advocate of asking questions though
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      01-20-2014, 06:13 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
When I report I always add not finalised or under discussion on some threads because it is under conception. I am not 100% correct all the time! but at that time what I hear is the decision , discussion etc at that point in time.
Of course not everything is the final decision and that things agreed on a Friday morning could be undone by Monday afternoon.

Some posts are marketing because of the decisions made and the reasons for doing so.

At that specific time I only knew M3 and M4 were in launch colors for the NAIAS. When I saw the black one I thought it would raised on a platform in the same way BMW do for International auto shows.

Back to the M2. Based on initial sketches.

You will know an M2 as it will be very different from an M235i in its stance and muscular bodywork.

The appearance leads on from the M235i Race car , typical facia with upturned central intake , aerodynamic spoilers around the outline of the brake intake with additional air curtain. The breather on the front wing will occupy the full length.

There is a wider track so both front and rear arches will be pronounced to accommodate 19" wheels. Although 18" will be offered.
Signature quad M exhaust ports with aerodynamic developed diffuser and a double edged Carbon fibre roof will be standard.
Very exciting news!
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      01-20-2014, 06:17 PM   #99
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Perfect M2 would be:
- Make it look like the renders, they look amazing.
- High Revving turbo 4 cylinder (~380hp and 8,000rpm)
- 3200lbs
- Manual Tranny
- Shut up and take my money.
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      01-20-2014, 06:23 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Drop two cylinders of the Autoexpress article.

BMW want the fastest four cylinder car in its segment. They also want the M2 to be the most progressive and dynamic car in its segment as well as the lightest performance car. They want a car that has a soul, unlike the Mercedes-Benz AMG A45/CLA 45 which are soulless to drive.
If this is true sign me up.
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      01-20-2014, 06:31 PM   #101
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Who would even mention the FT86/BRZ? That is a POS car

IMO VAG makes the best I4s so far...

If the M2 is under 3K pounds, has ~350 hp and comes in DCT and manual will smoke all other rivals

The CLA looks like a dong

BMW is still pretty much competing with itself so hopefully it brings the 1M replacement sooner and then I'm sure there would be a M2GC

BMW is the answer unless you want to jump to Porsche or Aston
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      01-20-2014, 06:47 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealYourFace View Post
I love the idea of an "s20" or whatever they wind up calling it. Basically an s55 with 2 cyl out of the middle.

Less weight over the nose, lots of punch, what's not to love?

As I posted before who wouldn't rather an e30 M3 over an e30 328is?
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      01-20-2014, 06:47 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brio View Post
Well...all the doubters just got Richard Sheman-ed.
Right, because that's an awesome way to be.

I really hope there's an M2 - that doesn't mean I couldn't foresee a situation in which BMW would not make one. And by his/her own admission, SCOTT26 cannot see the future.

I am pulling for one, just don't think it makes a lot of sense to "count" on it happening until there's more concrete info out there--such as spy shots or something similar.

Then I will be happy to jump on the bandwagon.
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      01-20-2014, 06:51 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I wouldn't count on it being a 2.5L I4. In order to stay in business, BMW has to adapt to the current engineering and economic environment. All their competitors use modular engine design in order to reduce costs. In order to compete, BMW must use the same. This is the reason the S55 is less bespoke than the S65/S85.

Both the N20 and the N55/S55 use a 500cc per-cylinder modular engine design. More importantly, they both share an 84mm bore. Someone more technical would have to chime in to let us know if they can go larger on the bore than that without materials issues. I wouldn't think they'd increase the stroke too much in order to avoid the need for changes to piston/rod/crank designs.

This is all conjecture, of course, but in terms of likelihood, we can look to the current trends to infer the future outcome.

Doesnt mean you can't leep the same bore and change the stroke with a new, lightened crankshaft and different pistons.. S20.. S22.. or S25....
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      01-20-2014, 06:52 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman Murch View Post
Who would even mention the FT86/BRZ? That is a POS car

IMO VAG makes the best I4s so far...

If the M2 is under 3K pounds, has ~350 hp and comes in DCT and manual will smoke all other rivals

The CLA looks like a dong

BMW is still pretty much competing with itself so hopefully it brings the 1M replacement sooner and then I'm sure there would be a M2GC

BMW is the answer unless you want to jump to Porsche or Aston
I don't know if BMW can make such a car under 3000 pounds, especially to be sold here in the US, with the way they market their cars (must have leather, power seats, plus all the health and safety stuff).

I think a better bet is 3200 pounds and roughly the same BHP as the M235. But with a better suspension, wider fenders, better dampening, etc.

They won't make a car that is "faster" than the bread and butter M3/4 - just look at Porsche with the 911/Cayman.

Now they might make a car that handles better, but not one that is faster in a straight line...for the people who give a shit about that.
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      01-20-2014, 07:37 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Coming from a guy with a 1M, says a lot!

BTW, if I ever get down your way for a cca school, I'll say hi. A friend of mine works down there (he and I have been toying with going down there for an early spring road trip next yr.
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      01-20-2014, 08:15 PM   #107
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The M2 will outperform any other M.

It will do so, due it it's track-focused design. I don't think the M2 will stop at just a CF roof, but also quarter panels, drive shaft and even suspension components..

It will be the epitome of their engineering, and BMW will use the M2 to showcase that.



The M2 and the M4 do not share the same focus.
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      01-20-2014, 08:24 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
Seems obvious to me, if you make an M2 and it is faster than the M235, it will be coming real damn close to the toes of things in "the upper range." Not much room in between the lineup. Still would like to see an M2!
Huh? Of course the M2 would be faster than the M235i. It would make no sense to have an M2 that would cost more and be more powerful than the M235i and be slower. What the article said was that a road going version if the M235i Racing was considered, but nixed because it might step on the toes of something higher up. Speculation of that would be the M2, or it could even be the M4. But, I don't know why that would be. The M235i Racing has 333 hp, now unless it had more up in the road version I don't see it being a huge threat, even with the diet.
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      01-20-2014, 08:37 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
Thanks for the deluge of new information Scott!

I am very excited about the upcoming M2. However I have one big concern. The fact that a turbo 4 will be used will place the car in all new territory for an M car. Never before has an M car had to contend in such a crowded and competitive category since the original M3:

Front engine, Rear wheel drive, 4 cylinder.

The E30 M3 competed against rivals of its era within this same class, however it did so with the provenance of being a homoglation special for a truly historic race car. All the competitors mainly from the Japanese companies could not claim as much, as thus were never true direct competitors to the E30 M3.

That brings us to today. The M2 when released in 2-3 years will come without any sort of homoglation provenance, and will not have the same purity and focus for existence as the E30 M3 did. This being said, the M2 will be playing on a much more level and robust playing field with the competition.

The BRS/FRS will almost definitely have a turbo version out by the time the M2 is released. The Kia GT4 Stinger concept will likely become a reality. The next Miata is going to be amazing guaranteed. Nissan will almost definitely throw its hat into the game. Honda will likely wake up from its slumber and make a go at the game it used to be a leader at. The new Mustang is even coming into the segment and will be a true player, meaning definitely Chevy and maybe even Chrysler/Fiat will jump on-board.

I think it is clear where this is going, that almost every automaker is going to have a front engine, Rear wheel drive, 4 cylinder. Sure BMW's M division has the ability and history to knock this out of the park, but what worries me most is that they are just going to acquiesce right into the same exact game as everyone else, just at a higher price point. There won't be the uniqueness of a high-revving naturally aspirated engine or the uniqueness of an inline-6. The M2 will just be the most expensive and likely best of a massively competitive segment.

All the carbon fiber will definitely help along with the premium BMW badge, but when someone can take their pick of the extreme competition that will take place in the 20-50k segment... having the best one that costs 50k plus will be an uncomfortable position to be in. BMW will be asking for a premium price, on their entrant into what will come to be the "low-end" battleground of the performance market (at least in the eyes of those with the means to afford a 50k plus car). BMW will be asking the most money, in the least prestigious segment.

Personally, I feel like the M2 should have something that makes it stand out other than just more carbon fiber, a higher price point, and a BMW M reputation behind it. The car should innovate, it should do and be something different from the crowd.

Here are my suggestions, any of which alone would be enough to make it stand out:

1. High revving, naturally aspirated 4 cylinder. Buck the trend, do just one engine for the old schoolers. Or even better do a high revving, naturally aspirated 6 cylinder and blow everyone's minds and create an instant legend and attainable halo car.

2. A KERS system. Allowing an instant boost in acceleration at strategic times without the silliness and weight of a typical hybrid system. F1 tech tie-ins never hurt.

3. Active Aero or DRS or some kind, this however assumes that M2 would have large wings and spoilers. Taking a bit of F1 tech that is done in a simple/efficient manner would go a long way towards creating a racing pedigree.

4. Release it with true carbon bucket seats that fold and have side airbags built in. Porsche did it in 2008 and it was available in the US market. There is no reason BMW can't do that same.



Sorry for the length, but I just wanted to give all my thoughts now while they may still matter.
Really it's not that crowded. The entry level luxury performance sedan/coupe is really the CLA 45 AMG, Audi S3/RS3, and that's about it. I mean you could add the Porsche Cayman to the mix, but it's a true sports car.

All the other cars you listed are not really in the BMW's class. I don't think people will cross shop a turbo version the BRZ/FRS and the M2, nor will they do that with the upcoming IDx...those are entry level cars, not luxury entry level.

Also, you are asking for KERS, active aero, DRS, carbon bucket seats. All that costs money...which would drive the price up.
And you also asked for a high revving NA engine, that cost money to develop as well. And as you know, they have already stated that there is an end to the bespoked engines of the past.
It's cheaper to take the turbo four and boast it to 360-380 hp, with forged internals and other goodies than it would be to design a NA 4 cylinder that winds all the way up to 360-380 hp...it would be nice, but it ain't happening.
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      01-20-2014, 08:41 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbowolfe
A 4 cyl, lightweight M2, would be awesome.
+1, hope this comes true, i was starting to doubt the M2 as bmw has already put the M in m235i.
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