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      12-10-2017, 07:33 PM   #1
M2Nebula
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Where's the Beef?

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Everywhere it seems, which led me to thinking why are so many cars overweight today? The subject of weight comes up in almost every thread and then I think back to American muscle cars of the '70's which were huge piles of iron and many of them weighed in the same as our M2 and other modern cars.

We have aluminum, carbon fiber, lighter glass, lighter wheels, etc....and other high tech stuff, yet we can't seem to shed any weight. It's not just that the cars are getting larger. Many are smaller than the '70's muscle cars.

The only logical answer is the addition of electronics and safety equipment. What does an airbag weigh times how many? How many electrical sensors and ancillary devices are there, and what does that add up to? The wiring harness alone must have increased quite a bit by itself?

We must have gotten soft and added allot more bun!
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      12-10-2017, 07:53 PM   #2
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When was the last time you drove a 1970s era muscle car? They squeak, they leak, they rattle, they're drafty, they smoke, their headlights dont work for sh*t, their wipers dont work for sh*t, there's no nav, no power seats, no heated wheel, they overheat in traffic, the brakes suck, the suspension sucks, they crumple into a ball and kill their occupants on impact, need I go on? All these gripes are remedied in a modern car and that all adds weight.
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      12-11-2017, 09:50 AM   #3
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Understood, but the point is that today's cars "should" be lighter based on material advances and technology. The fact that they are the same weight as something in the past has everything to do with all the added comfort, entertainment, and safety.

If you look at your Moto Guzzi V7 and compare it to 30+ year old Le Mans you will realize a 10% weight reduction. Yes, modern bikes have gotten way more competent, just like modern cars, but they have lost weight, sometimes significantly so. Why is this....because they don't have any of these items.

As I said, if you add up the nav, entertainment, air bags, etc...it will negate any weight savings that the car "could" of had. Aluminum suspension and engine components saved allot of weight to start. Crash safety improvements were primarily structural design changes based on computer modeling advances. A fairly significant amount of weight was shaved in these two areas alone. Door seals, brakes, and a long list of items that make the car better and solve the issues you discuss have been improved on and are now made of lighter and better materials.

Even my 30 year old E28(M30 I6) was 200+ lbs lighter than my M2 and was 13" longer, the same height, and ~6" narrower.

We should be further ahead.
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      12-11-2017, 10:15 AM   #4
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I don't think we should or could be further ahead. For one, the cost of getting the weight out on a "modern" car is probably not worth the actual $ increase - meaning, most customers are not going to pay $500 more for a Camry that is 300lbs lighter.

And let's remember, those heavier cars do better in crashes.... now, not making excuses - because those are.... random order and far from completely...
Everything including
Brakes - bigger rotors, more powerful calipers (no drum brakes), ABS sensors, components, etc.
Seats - think of what the seats were like in the 70s and what they have now (a board vs. a contoured seat) - then add heating, cooling, etc.
Sunroofs - and then make them panoramic
Wheels - from 14/15" wheels to today's 18/19/20..
Exhaust - most are stainless today
Emissions control stuff
All the computers - I think I read the old 7 series had like 100+? Because we have
Power windows - that go down by holding our remote button
Comfort access - with all the sensors that go with it
Power trunk opening - no using a key to pop the trunk these days
Emergency releases in the trunk
Incredible climate controls - that have lots of sensors to keep us comfy
The heated steering wheel - GOD I LOVE THAT FEATURE!
Airbags - how many are in a modern car? 6? 8? I don't know.
Transmissions with up to 10 gears....

In short, I think we demand a very superior product today and the goal of making the stuff weightless is outweighed by the want of the customer to pay $x and not $y.

Just my thoughts of course
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      12-11-2017, 02:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2Nebula View Post
Understood, but the point is that today's cars "should" be lighter based on material advances and technology. The fact that they are the same weight as something in the past has everything to do with all the added comfort, entertainment, and safety.

If you look at your Moto Guzzi V7 and compare it to 30+ year old Le Mans you will realize a 10% weight reduction. Yes, modern bikes have gotten way more competent, just like modern cars, but they have lost weight, sometimes significantly so. Why is this....because they don't have any of these items.

As I said, if you add up the nav, entertainment, air bags, etc...it will negate any weight savings that the car "could" of had. Aluminum suspension and engine components saved allot of weight to start. Crash safety improvements were primarily structural design changes based on computer modeling advances. A fairly significant amount of weight was shaved in these two areas alone. Door seals, brakes, and a long list of items that make the car better and solve the issues you discuss have been improved on and are now made of lighter and better materials.

Even my 30 year old E28(M30 I6) was 200+ lbs lighter than my M2 and was 13" longer, the same height, and ~6" narrower.

We should be further ahead.
Really? My ipad doesn't weigh that much, why does all this tech have to way hundreds of pounds? This doesn't make any sense to me.
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      12-11-2017, 02:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
Really? My ipad doesn't weigh that much, why does all this tech have to way hundreds of pounds? This doesn't make any sense to me.
Not sure I understand what you are saying, but your current iPad probably weighs less, is thinner, and has a larger viewing area than it's predecessor.

Things have to weigh something, the question lies in how many unneccesarry things have been added which negate any technological advances in other needed areas where weight had been reduced.
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      12-11-2017, 03:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
Really? My ipad doesn't weigh that much, why does all this tech have to way hundreds of pounds? This doesn't make any sense to me.
When we are talking about electronic control and compartment (not considering other featured weight), it is not about ECU that counts for the weight. Most of them will be wires that connect from different component to the control unit. If you have seen any videos on youtube that shows any production of vehicle, you will be able to see those chunks of electric wires and insulation through-out the vehicle.. IMO that should weight probably more than 100 lbs in total..
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      12-11-2017, 04:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alscks0414 View Post
When we are talking about electronic control and compartment (not considering other featured weight), it is not about ECU that counts for the weight. Most of them will be wires that connect from different component to the control unit. If you have seen any videos on youtube that shows any production of vehicle, you will be able to see those chunks of electric wires and insulation through-out the vehicle.. IMO that should weight probably more than 100 lbs in total..
Hmmm, I see.
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      12-11-2017, 06:04 PM   #9
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      12-11-2017, 06:42 PM   #10
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Most early muscle cars didn't have air conditioning. My '65 Mustang did not. The compressor, cooling coils, vents, ducts, fans and whatnot associated AC adds quite a bit of weight. There was also just a very basic AM radio, not the speakers we have all over the car these days. No windshield washers. Someone else mentioned the noise inside. There was, effectively, no sound dampening in my car. No center console (just a big carpeted hump over the transmission and drive shaft).
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      12-11-2017, 07:16 PM   #11
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The big shift change you are looking for is on the horizon. The reason cars have not lost weight is two fold:

1) Added luxury and safety items (as we have been discussing above)
2) No significant change in materials of manufacturing

I think we've beat issue 1 to death. Let's tackle issue 2. We had aluminum, magnesium, titanium back in the 70s. We didn't use it much because of cost. We still dont. Your average car today is still, mostly, steel. it's cheap and it's good enough. Yes, our BMW M Cars have higher percentages of exotic materials and the Ferraris and Lambos have a higher percentage yet. Let's do a quick comparison between a 1970 Dodge Charger and a 2017 BMW 330:

Charger with a 440
0 - 60 in 6.4 seconds
1/4 mile in 14.7 seconds at 96 MPH
Weight: 3880 Pounds

2017 BMW 330
0 - 60 in 5.5 seconds
1/4 mile in 14.2 seconds at 98 MPH
Weight: 3537 pounds

Fuel economy, skid pad, and braking distances are all hard to come by for the Dodge, but does anyone seriously think the BMW 330i loses any of those battles? So our basic 330i performs better AND is lighter.

I do think that if you do a few more side by side comparisons you'll find that in general our cars today perform better and are lighter! Are they 30%, 40% lighter? No. That's because we are using the same basic materials and manufacturing processes as in the 1970s. We are just sprinkling in a bit more aluminum here and there.

The real step change is on the horizon though! Addative manufacturing is going to blow this whole thing out of the water. What was once impossible will be come possible. Cars will get dramatically lighter without losing performance or safety. We wont be changing the materials we use, but we will be changing how we work with them. That will finally bring the big change you seek.

Last edited by DETRoadster; 12-11-2017 at 07:42 PM..
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      12-12-2017, 11:41 PM   #12
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