[MMMBRAP]

Originally Posted by Artemis

All speculation.

BMW M is keeping the M2 cards close to its chest and does not tolerate leaks. I guess that those who may know the accurate info through reliable sources, understandably will remain discreet about it in order to avoid their sources and themselves possibly getting into hot water with BMW. Gotta respect that.

But, there's nothing wrong with quoting snippets of official info. FWIW, see for example http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...3#post20792453

That's what I figured. Thanks for the input here Artemis.

[W///]

Originally Posted by RoadRunner///M

If the S55 is so bad I am surprised so many want it in the M2 CS

It is a sensational engine... the end

I personally don't like the way the base M3/4 sounds (MPE included), but have absolutely 0 problems with the way the ZCP sounds.

I'm sure I'll get crucified for this, but I'd take the S55 with ZCP over the S54 in the E46 M3 when it comes to exhaust note (note I didn't say intake noise).

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by W///

I personally don't like the way the base M3/4 sounds (MPE included), but have absolutely 0 problems with the way the ZCP sounds.

I'm sure I'll get crucified for this, but I'd take the S55 with ZCP over the S54 in the E46 M3 when it comes to exhaust note (note I didn't say intake noise).

I completely agree there.

My only issue is that I'm starting to get annoyed by "unnatural" burbles that are in almost any new car these days (F type, Huracan, R8, M3/4 ZCP)

I think of all those cars the ZCP does it best. It certainly has helped the car sound better. I would just prefer to not need ECU induced burbles. I love it when they occur more sporadically and naturally with the exhaust. And sometimes I just want to hear the beautiful revs of those V10 's fall seamlessly without any pops interrupting the Huracan/R8

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by swagon

>projecting this hard

You sound like you have some serious issues, homie.

I also recommend you to read the S55 tech docs and threads discussing this subject; this horse has been beaten to death so many times that there is nothing beat anymore. After reading all the stuff you will, hopefully, know why the S55 is an called S55 and not the other way like you would like it to be.

And no one gives a fuck about your preferences and angry behaviour. You don't like it, cool. I don't like olives and don't eat them.

Did anyone need to read an internet forum, or fucking 'tech docs' to know an S14, an S54, or an S65 was special, or did you just need to hear it once? Fuck me, I still remember the first time I heard an S65 at WOT following one into a tunnel. Sounded like the world's most awesome lawnmower with an F1 engine.

What you're doing is confusing olives with nuggets of goat shit. They might look similar, but one is made out of shit and was shat out by a goat. Putting them in a jar with brine and labelling them olives is not going to change that, or make them taste better, no matter how many you eat while reading about how delicious goat shit is supposed to be on Gourmet Goat Shit Forum. Good day to you sir.

I imagine that one day I shall have to stand in uncomfortable silence while this post is read out loud to the team that engineered the S55. In the event that this happens, I want to point out that the the goat in this allegory is a particularly fine specimen and no offence was intended, and could I please have a drive of an e46 CSL, if that's not too much to ask.

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by W///

I personally don't like the way the base M3/4 sounds (MPE included), but have absolutely 0 problems with the way the ZCP sounds.

I'm sure I'll get crucified for this, but I'd take the S55 with ZCP over the S54 in the E46 M3 when it comes to exhaust note (note I didn't say intake noise).

I'd like to note that even when people say they like it, that like is always conditional. That's because the S55 sounds like garbage. If an AMG sounded that bad out of the box, no one would buy one and the the team that developed that engine would be sent to Mercedes-Benz's pedestrian safety testing centre, as dummies.

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

I don't disagree really, but I think it's just an unavoidable sign of the times. Exhaust note aside, modern DI turbo engines are going to be tuned for what they're good at, huge, flat torque curves. While they wouldn't, if they tuned an engine like the S55 to make less power down low, so you'd have a more N/A character, people would still complain. See the S65. While to you and I, that might be a perfect engine, many people hated it's soft low-end, particularly in view of the fact that the N54/N55 were out there in large numbers, killing it in the low/mid range on a few hundred dollar piggyback.

Numbers sell a lot of these cars, so BMW isn't going to pander to the small group of us who want revy/racy power curves.

What is it about the N54 you like so much (not that I don't love it)? A bit better exhaust note? The 1M's N54 is exactly the same as any other N54 in a 1/3/5 series, they couldn't just slap an S designation on it because they put it into an M car. At least the S55 was built up with a stronger block and internals, AWIC, etc. Making it a more advanced/well-built engine, again sans exhaust note. I don't think exhaust note is enough to overshadow the fact that it's a beast of an engine built like a brick shit house.

I fully understand that I'm just some dude shouting at my computer, which is why when I got my chance, I put down money for an M2, over the more practical, more powerful M3, that I could have had at the same price as my new M2. Engines like this are on the way out, life is short and I was lucky enough to have the opportunity. It doesn't mean I can't complain about the end of affordable, enjoyable engaging engines.

Look at the RS3. It's like 5 hot, oiled up strippers dragging a dumpster on fire. One can easily overlook the smell of burning garbage and just enjoy the best parts of the tableau because the good bits are so damn good. I don't know if I've ever heard a more enjoyable engine than that riotous, flatbill wearing, fixie riding obnoxiously awesome douchebag of an engine. Yes the S3 handles better and is objectively better, but the RS3 has ten tits. End of argument. Apparently I'm the asshole for making the argument on an enthusiast forum that how sports cars sound is very important to how they are perceived.

As far as the N54, I wasn't arguing that it was my favourite engine, just that BMW have already proved they can make a decent sounding, twin turbo engine with the capacity to make serious power and deliver it well. Therefore, I don't understand how they could screw up so badly with the S55. I don't feel that I'm expressing a controversial opinion here. At one point, I'd committed to buying an M3, with the knowledge that it would sound bad. Fortunately the M2 came along and I decided to go for that instead, but it's not like I would set myself on fire rather than buy an S55. Unless I was guaranteed to survive with no loss or permanent damage to driving and/or sex parts, and BMW would fix how it sounded and give me a special one of one edition model with the new better sounding engine. And all expenses paid ED. And free servicing for life. 100% would set self on fire then.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Yes, when I fork out A$160,000+ for a fun, sports sedan, I expect to be told that I will eventually grow to tolerate the bullshit coming out of the exhaust.

Wouldn't you also like some, you know, actual performance for that money? I don't immensely enjoy the sound of the S55 (and took the stupid ASD off), but I'm actually comforted by the fact that the M engineers spent their R&D budget on making it go faster instead of making it sound better. It's Engineering with a purpose.

It's part of why the F80/2 Ms leave me so cold. The chassis is good, but the engine is dull and its power delivery doesn't climb and build, it just plops the power down in a big wad of torque like food at a fucking cafeteria.

It is still a lot better than the power delivery in the M2. You'll see that the M2 has an even flatter top end. The S55 has an explosive power delivery and if your test drive was just pussyfooting around with the dealer rep next to you as I'm sure it was, then you just spooned the juice off the steak but didn't take an actual bite.

What, exactly, makes the S55 an M engine while somehow excluding the N55B30TO? Currently the only things it has are 1) It makes more power 2) It has an S designation.

Do you mean the small matter of the extra turbocharger, water intercooling, antilag system and other geeky differences?

Just FYI, an engine becomes an S engine when there are sufficiently large number of changes or differences compared to the regular engine it is based, or loosely based, on. This is just engineering talk, changing the designation when the body of changes simply makes it a very different item, and has nothing to do with sentimental bullshit about whether it's deserving, or has a soul, or will go to the engine Walhalla when it dies.

BMW decided the engine in the M3/4 is different enough to get the S designation, and the one in the M2 not. As simple as that, and any amount of noisy whining won't change the facts.

And yes, I am this fun at parties.

It doesn't *sound* like it.

[slashrawr]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

...
Look at the RS3. It's like 5 hot, oiled up strippers dragging a dumpster on fire. One can easily overlook the smell of burning garbage and just enjoy the best parts of the tableau because the good bits are so damn good. I don't know if I've ever heard a more enjoyable engine than that riotous, flatbill wearing, fixie riding obnoxiously awesome douchebag of an engine. Yes the S3 handles better and is objectively better, but the RS3 has ten tits. End of argument. ...

You have a way with words...I mean you need to take a chill pill or twelve and you're completely wrong about the S55 but your word play is impeccable.

Now, as for the topic of the S55 sound...I heard it on the Tubes and hated it. Now I wasn't fond of the S54's tinny sound either but that didn't diminish the respect I had for it or my level of want for one. Anyway, I test drove an F80 about a month ago and that completely changed my opinion of it. It didn't sound nearly as horrid as it does in the videos but more importantly the way it revved blew me away and what I found myself realising was the sound seemed to really match the character of the engine and how it performed. I can't quite explain why, but that's how I felt. I still prefer the sound of the M2's N55 but given the choice of the two engines, I would have no issues picking the S55...it is in every measurable way an objectively better unit. Were there not a A$50k or 50% difference between the M2 and M3 I would have almost certainly got an M3. <rant>WTF isn't there anything between A$110k and A$160k?!?!?</rant>

Like you I value the sound, I also feel it's crucial to the experience. It's why I chose an R32 over an S3, an R36 over well...any of it's direct competitors...and why the only real options I have for my next car are the M2 and RS3.

You're completely entitled to not like the sound of the S55, but asserting it's a shitty engine because you personally don't like the sound of it is like saying you don't like the pope because the cheese is Saturday; it doesn't make any sense. And there's no need to keep trying to beat your opinion into others.

You'll get your N55 M2 and you'll love it and be happy. The LCI/CS/CSL/GTS/whatever will come and it may just come with an S55 derived engine. Those that want it will get it, those that don't (because of the sound or not), won't. At the end of the day things will change, for the better or worse...bitching about it is as useful as blowing on an oil rig fire.

BMW really does need do something with the M2 though. It's facing challenges both externally and within it's own ranks. The performance of the M240i is far too close for the M2 to command the premium it does, especially when you consider it's better equipped as well. In the market you have the likes of the RS3 which is cheaper, getting a power bump soon (it's already quicker anyway), sounds outrageous, and that virtual cockpit is sensational. Not to mention it too, like the M240i, comes better equipped - blindspot monitoring, front sensors, adaptive dampers (although the fixed M2 damping is perfect!), etc. Yes, yes, AWD, auto, humdrum, blah, blah, blah...the thing is a rocketship and usable on any road, in any conditions, by anyone. For the track, no, it's probably not the best choice, but in the real world on public roads, it's hard to beat. Then there's the A/CLA/GLA45, Focus RS or even the Golf R or S3 at almost half the price! Anyone who doesn't believe the M2 needs some improvement to keep pace with or differentiate it more from the competition is delusional. At the moment the competition has the edge in performance, tech, practicality and price...the only thing keeping people (myself included) in the M2 game is it's incredible good looks (subjective), its amazing straight 6 howl (again subjective) and it's outstanding driving dynamics. For some that's enough, others will certainly demand more.

[Nine Lives]

It's the heat down there,it'll pass

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by slashrawr

Were there not a A$50k or 50% difference between the M2 and M3 I would have almost certainly got an M3. <rant>WTF isn't there anything between A$110k and A$160k?!?!?

It's more like $20k. A lightly used +-3000km 2016 LCI M3 is around A$130k on carsales. Similarly used M2 (The DCT one, not the stripper) are on sale used for around A$110,000, basically the same as brand new pricing. I'm not going to argue that this is solely due to the M2 sounding better and being a more cohesive and more special driving experience, but I think that plays a part. You're absolutely right about there being nothing between the $110k-$160k mark brand new though. Crazy. How about a B58 based M340is? MPPK, MPE, fixed dampers, M2's steering and diff. $125k new? Maybe if the F80/2 had been better executed, BMW would be living in fear of a car like that killing M3 sales?

I got to drive both cars back to back and if the M2 didn't exist, the F80/2 would look much, much better. And while I agree that BMW should do more with the M2, I don't think they should do the things that hurt the F80/2, namely chasing HP and torque above everything else. Balance, communication, faithfulness, these things should come first in an M car.

[slashrawr]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

It's more like $20k. A lightly used +-3000km 2016 LCI M3 is around A$130k on carsales. Similarly used M2 (The DCT one, not the stripper) are on sale used for around A$110,000, basically the same as brand new pricing. I'm not going to argue that this is solely due to the M2 sounding better and being a more cohesive and more special driving experience, but I think that plays a part. You're absolutely right about there being nothing between the $110k-$160k mark brand new though. Crazy. How about a B58 based M340is? MPPK, MPE, fixed dampers, M2's steering and diff. $125k new? Maybe if the F80/2 had been better executed, BMW would be living in fear of a car like that killing M3 sales?

I got to drive both cars back to back and if the M2 didn't exist, the F80/2 would look much, much better. And while I agree that BMW should do more with the M2, I don't think they should do the things that hurt the F80/2, namely chasing HP and torque above everything else. Balance, communication, faithfulness, these things should come first in an M car.

Funny you mention the second hand market, the one I test drove was a 2016 LCI with ~900km on the clock for $138k drive away. That price was the only reason I even considered it but in the end I knew I would see a CP or an AW with Sakhir Orange interior and would instantly regret it. Also, the thought of the number of people that drove it the way I drove it made me quickly realise it was a bad idea. So yeah, I wouldn't get one second hand to be honest. If BMW offered the M3 at $130k base I would be all over it, but with the M2 (and it's relevant competitors) being so good at a fraction of the price, I just can't bring myself to justify the cost of the M3. I'm quietly (and naively) hopeful that Alfa will drop the Giulia QV around the A$140k mark.

Sorry for going...

[W///]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

I'd like to note that even when people say they like it, that like is always conditional. That's because the S55 sounds like garbage. If an AMG sounded that bad out of the box, no one would buy one and the the team that developed that engine would be sent to Mercedes-Benz's pedestrian safety testing centre, as dummies.

I said that about the intake noise because I'm sure you are aware, turbos can't match NA. Still doesn't change the fact that I'd take an F80 over an E46 when it comes to engine noise. I don't care what the base one sounds like, I'd get the CP anyway.

The E46 M3 is considered one of THE best M cars ever made, yet it sounds like a box of marbles to me. Should those engineers have been sent back to the pedestrian safety testing center too?

Either way, this thread shouldn't be to discuss solely what we like or hate about the S55, so let's just leave it at that.

[MMMBRAP]

Originally Posted by W///

I personally don't like the way the base M3/4 sounds (MPE included), but have absolutely 0 problems with the way the ZCP sounds.

I'm sure I'll get crucified for this, but I'd take the S55 with ZCP over the S54 in the E46 M3 when it comes to exhaust note (note I didn't say intake noise).

Agreed!

[ClothSeats]

The stock E46 is too raspy and the stock F80 is too farty.. but add a carbon airbox to the E46, and a ZCP exhaust to the F80, and they sound fine IMO.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Look at the RS3. It's like 5 hot, oiled up strippers dragging a dumpster on fire.

Not sure I have a point to add... but that is some wonderful imagery!

Though I will say the S55 with titanium exhaust doesn't sound so bad. Still a little farty... but more like Dr. Doom letting loose than Homer Simpson.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by swagon

And no one gives a fuck about your preferences and angry behaviour. You don't like it, cool. I don't like olives and don't eat them.

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

What you're doing is confusing olives with nuggets of goat shit. They might look similar, but one is made out of shit and was shat out by a goat. Putting them in a jar with brine and labelling them olives is not going to change that, or make them taste better, no matter how many you eat while reading about how delicious goat shit is supposed to be on Gourmet Goat Shit Forum. Good day to you sir.
I imagine that one day I shall have to stand in uncomfortable silence while this post is read out loud to the team that engineered the S55. In the event that this happens, I want to point out that the the goat in this allegory is a particularly fine specimen and no offence was intended, and could I please have a drive of an e46 CSL, if that's not too much to ask.

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Look at the RS3. It's like 5 hot, oiled up strippers dragging a dumpster on fire. One can easily overlook the smell of burning garbage and just enjoy the best parts of the tableau because the good bits are so damn good. I don't know if I've ever heard a more enjoyable engine than that riotous, flatbill wearing, fixie riding obnoxiously awesome douchebag of an engine. Yes the S3 handles better and is objectively better, but the RS3 has ten tits. End of argument. Apparently I'm the asshole for making the argument on an enthusiast forum that how sports cars sound is very important to how they are perceived.

Pug goes ballistic !

[The H is Silent]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

I got to drive both cars back to back and if the M2 didn't exist, the F80/2 would look much, much better. And while I agree that BMW should do more with the M2, I don't think they should do the things that hurt the F80/2, namely chasing HP and torque above everything else. Balance, communication, faithfulness, these things should come first in an M car.

I agree that the M2 certainly throws a wrinkle into some purchasing decisions. I love the smaller form factor of the 2 series and by some accounts the M2 is the better driving car, but I also love all the extra touches added to the F8X. It is one of the tougher car purchase choices I've had to make.

Not sure if I'm the only one, but my dream M2 is one where you take everything from an M4 and cram it into the f87 chassis. I'd pay M4 money for that...

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

The stock E46 is too raspy and the stock F80 is too farty.. but add a carbon airbox to the E46, and a ZCP exhaust to the F80, and they sound fine IMO.

Changing the intake on the S54 doesn't change its exhaust note, obviously. It's the resonator in the mipipe that needs addressing. Specifically adding one to the side without (and possibly swap the stock on for something better).

[ryem3]

Originally Posted by slashrawr

You'll get your N55 M2 and you'll love it and be happy. The LCI/CS/CSL/GTS/whatever will come and it may just come with an S55 derived engine. Those that want it will get it, those that don't (because of the sound or not), won't. At the end of the day things will change, for the better or worse...bitching about it is as useful as blowing on an oil rig fire.

BMW really does need do something with the M2 though. It's facing challenges both externally and within it's own ranks. The performance of the M240i is far too close for the M2 to command the premium it does, especially when you consider it's better equipped as well. In the market you have the likes of the RS3 which is cheaper, getting a power bump soon (it's already quicker anyway), sounds outrageous, and that virtual cockpit is sensational. Not to mention it too, like the M240i, comes better equipped - blindspot monitoring, front sensors, adaptive dampers (although the fixed M2 damping is perfect!), etc. Yes, yes, AWD, auto, humdrum, blah, blah, blah...the thing is a rocketship and usable on any road, in any conditions, by anyone. For the track, no, it's probably not the best choice, but in the real world on public roads, it's hard to beat. Then there's the A/CLA/GLA45, Focus RS or even the Golf R or S3 at almost half the price! Anyone who doesn't believe the M2 needs some improvement to keep pace with or differentiate it more from the competition is delusional. At the moment the competition has the edge in performance, tech, practicality and price...the only thing keeping people (myself included) in the M2 game is it's incredible good looks (subjective), its amazing straight 6 howl (again subjective) and it's outstanding driving dynamics. For some that's enough, others will certainly demand more.

Ah yes, you have it right.
Everyone makes a bold assumption that the exhaust note of the S55 can't be changed. You highlighted the points I've made for a while. Wake up and smell the competitive coffee. The M240, the RS3. The M2 is awesome, but a bit of a marketing disaster. Released late, no 2016 cars, few cars produced and a change in 2018 when they haven't even produced many cars. Way to mess up a good thing.

[firestarter2]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Ah yes, you have it right.
Everyone makes a bold assumption that the exhaust note of the S55 can't be changed. You highlighted the points I've made for a while. Wake up and smell the competitive coffee. The M240, the RS3. The M2 is awesome, but a bit of a marketing disaster. Released late, no 2016 cars, few cars produced and a change in 2018 when they haven't even produced many cars. Way to mess up a good thing.

It's like they released the m2 with no real plan

[///M-pressed]

Originally Posted by firestarter2

It's like they released the m2 with no real plan

Yet look how hard it is to get one, so I don't think they're too concerned about this.

[M2GB]

I have my car coming in March. Am i really likely to find out 2 months later that a faster base M2 is coming out?