[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

There was a weight discussion between the OG M2 and the M2C. People were calling the M2C fatty and piggy. One member had an OG when he took deliverey if his M2C. He weighed them, it turns out that the real world weight difference was about 70lbs. The weight increase is very small considering the S55 engine and it's added cooling plus much heavier brakes on the US M2C.

I seriously doubt if there will be much difference in weight between the CS and the C. Maybe the Ceramic brakes will drop the weight a bit but that's a $10k option isn't it? Some weight reduction might be due to the 763 wheels.

I agree.

The two cars are pretty much identical in build, with the CS getting carbon roof, bonnet (hood), centre console and lighter 763m wheels. But the CS also gets carbon spoiler and splitter which are not without any mass and I'm told the holed seat design is heavier than the C seats, marginally. I'd expect the CS to be around 20-25kg lighter, like for like. But importantly lower CG and rotational mass.

[CosmosMpower]

Dealer that sold me my m2c called and asked if I wanted the M2CS spot at MSRP, I laughed at him. No way in hell I'm paying 85-90K for a M2 of any sort.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Did a quick Google search
E46 M3 CSL 3,053 lbs link: https://www.carfolio.com/bmw-m3-csl-107635
E46 M3 3,241 lbs link: https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...%203241%20lbs.

That's 188 lbs.

Even if you just look at the Wiki Page, take that with a grain of salt, obviously, there's still only a 240 lbs. difference. Thats still like a 7% difference at most.

Not saying you're wrong but Carfolio and Ultimatespecs are highly suspect, worse than wikipedia, which i wouldn't necessarily trust either.

Again, they may well have the right numbers but (and i know this is going to sound weird) I used to look up car specs professionally and those two sites were specifically on the "do not cite from here" list.

Generally speaking its tough to get car weights as even manufacturers themselves can put BS numbers out there (*Cough Lamborghini and Ferrari cough*)

Nothing beats a car that's actually been measured on a scale. It's less common now, but reputable car magazines used to always weigh their vehicles, so if you can find an old issue of Car and Driver or something that'll have a reliable weight listed.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Did a quick Google search
E46 M3 CSL 3,053 lbs link: https://www.carfolio.com/bmw-m3-csl-107635
E46 M3 3,241 lbs link: https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...%203241%20lbs.
That's 188 lbs.
Even if you just look at the Wiki Page, take that with a grain of salt, obviously, there's still only a 240 lbs. difference. Thats still like a 7% difference at most.

That's inaccurate.

Even in 2019, BMW itself officially confirmed again the weight difference between E46 M3 CSL and E46 M3 to be 110 kg (see here). To my knowledge that figure has always been quoted since launch of the E46 M3 CSL.

No way that BMW has repeated the E46 M3 CSL kind of invasive surgery and more dedicated R&D with the M2 CS.

Originally Posted by Artemis

I believe that no-one claims that an M2C (even if heavily modded) is an M2 CS or a wannabe M2 CS. Both cars are siblings of a great F87 bloodline. An M2C will always be an M2C and an M2 CS will always be an M2 CS. And the M2 CS will always be at the top of the F87 pecking order.

But any claim that the M2 CS is to the M2C, what the the E46 M3 CSL was to the the E46 M3, is flawed IMHO. BMW did quite some surgery on the E46 M3 to develop the E46 M3 CSL, shaving off 110 kg (1495 kg reduced to 1385 kg), never called it "limited edition" and made 1383 cars. This E46 M3 extraordinaire justified its 50% markup. One cannot say the same about the M2 CS. Great car, undoubtedly, but compared to the extra mile(s) walked by BMW M for the E46 M3 CSL (see for example here, here and here), BMW M took the easy road for the M2 CS and charged a flatteringly immodest markup when considering the M2C price (and discounts), regardless the marketing trick of "only 2200 cars" (817 more M2 CS than E46 M3 CSL or almost 60% more).

• E46 M3 CSL: 1383 built (see here);
• E92 M3 GTS ("limited edition"): 150 built (see here);
• E90 M3 CRT ("limited edition"): 67 built (see here);
• 1M: 2700 scheduled - 6309 built (see here);
• M4 GTS ("limited edition"): 700 scheduled - 803 built (see here);
• M4 DTM ("limited edition"): 200 scheduled - 200 built (see here);
• M4 CS: 3000 scheduled - 2043 built (June 2019 figure) (see here);
• M3 CS: 1200 scheduled - 1263 built (see here);
• M2 CS ("limited edition"): 2200 scheduled (2020) (see here).

Originally Posted by Artemis

"What is the E46 M3 CSL?
The E46 M3 CSL is a special variation of the standard E46 M3 coupe that features numerous lightweight components, as well as a myriad of drivetrain, chassis and cosmetic enhancements. The "CSL" moniker denotes "Coupe Sport Lightweight" and was first used on the 3.0 CSL homologation special in 1971. A total of 1,383 E46 M3 CSLs were produced to European specification between June and December of 2003 in both left-hand drive (841 built) and right-hand drive (542 built) configuration. (This figure excludes an additional series of at least a dozen pre-production M3 CSL prototypes built between September of 2002 and February of 2003.)
The E46 M3 CSL is most notably distinguished from the standard E46 M3 by its various lightweight components. The largest of these is the carbon fiber-reinforced plastic (GFP) roof panel, which weighs over 13 pounds less than its conventional steel counterpart. The front bumper support is also constructed of GFP, as is the uniquely-shaped front airdam with its single intake on the left-hand side. At the rear, the lower rear valance panel is made of GFP, while the reshaped trunk lid is made of SMC (sheet molding compound). Fiberglass-reinforced plastic is used for the rear bumper supports and this material is also "sandwiched" with thermoplastics and foam to create the trunk floor and rear bulkhead. As a final weight-saving measure, the rear window glass is extra thin. BMW claimed that the M3 CSL weighed 3,054 pounds, or roughly 10 percent less than the normal model.
The E46 M3 CSL is powered by a modified version of the usual 3,246-cc S54 inline-six that lacks a conventional mass airflow meter. Instead, the air draw is determined directly by the DME for quicker calculations. There is also a more efficient air intake system made largely of GFP and routed through larger manifolds to the circular opening in the front airdam. Further changes include modified camshafts and exhaust valves, plus a lightweight exhaust system constructed of thinner steel. The CSL-spec engine is rated at 360 hp (DIN) at 7,900 rpm and 273 lb-ft of torque at 4,300 rpm.
The M3 CSL is equipped exclusively with the SMG II transmission featuring a special launch control mode that automatically shifts at the optimum point for maximum acceleration. This is mated to the standard E46 M3 final drive and M Differential Lock. Finally, the DSC system of the M3 CSL can be switched to M Track Mode via the steering wheel-mounted button. This raises the threshold at which the system intervenes to allow for some degree of wheelspin.
The suspension of the M3 CSL is based closely upon that of the standard E46 M3. However, it does incorporate a number of changes, including front coil springs that are shorter by one winding, different spring and shock rates (for both rebound and compression), plus larger anti-roll bars in the front (30.8 mm) and rear (22.5 mm). In addition, the normal aluminum front control arms (shared with the standard E46 M3) are joined by aluminum rear suspension links with stiffer ball bushings. Rounding out the chassis upgrades are a quicker steering rack (overall ratio: 14.5:1) and larger 13.7-inch cross-drilled front brake rotors. Finally, the M3 CSL rides on lightweight cross-spoke alloy wheels measuring 8.5x19-inches in front (0.5 inches wider than the normal M3) and 9.5x19-inches in the rear. These are shod with special Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires sized 235/35ZR19 (front) and 265/30ZR19 (rear). (Conventional tires mounted to the 19-inch forged M Double Spoke II wheels from the standard E46 M3 were also offered as a no-cost alternative.)
In addition to the aforementioned lightweight body components and unique wheels, the exterior of the E46 M3 CSL is further distinguished by a special "CSL" insert in place of the usual "M3" model designation within the decorative intake grilles on either fender. In addition, there is an "M3 CSL" badge on the trunk lid. Exterior colors were limited to Silver Grey metallic (A08) and Black Sapphire metallic (475).
Though the interior of the M3 CSL retains the standard E46 M3 dashboard (with Titan Shadow trim), instruments and general controls, it differs significantly in most other areas. The minimal door panels are constructed of lightweight GFP and lack the usual side airbags. Likewise, the center console surrounding the parking brake is also made of GFP and contains the power mirror switch that normally resides on the driver-side door. The deeply-bolstered front seats (similar to those found in the M3 GTR) have GFP backings and are upholstered in a combination of Anthracite "Reflex" cloth and Amaretta (synthetic suede). The two special individually-shaped rear seats are also covered in the same materials. The Alcantara-wrapped M three-spoke steering wheel contains only the M Track Mode switch in place of the usual audio and cruise control buttons. The parking brake handle is similarly fashioned from Alcantara and both door sills contain unique trim plates.
In keeping with the lightweight, driver-focused manner of the M3 CSL, standard comforts were limited to just power windows, an auto-dimming rearview mirror, central locking and the on-board computer. The short list of extra-cost options included only an anti-theft alarm, green-tinted windshield stripe or climate comfort windshield, velour floor mats, bi-Xenon headlights with headlight washers (washers excluded on UK-spec examples), Park Distance Control, rain sensor with automatic headlight control, automatic climate control and various cassette/CD/mini-disc radios. There were also three no-cost options available: deletion of the rear "M3 CSL" badge, a "smokers package" that included an ashtray and cigarette lighter, plus the fitment of the forged M Double Spoke II alloy wheels with conventional tires from the standard M3 in place of the CSL's cross-spoke alloy wheels with Cup tires. One final factory option was the removal of the standard 155-mph top speed limiter."
(source: here)

Originally Posted by Artemis

Back in 2003: E46 M3 base price (6MT) + 56% = E46 M3 CSL base price (SMGII) (€85K).

Base price E46 M3 - E46 M3 Cabrio - E46 M3 CSL (September 2003):
(source: here)



Base price E46 M3 CSL + options list (May 2003):
(source: here - standard features: see pages 4-5)

On a final note: for a word of caution about unrealistic weight reduction expectations, read what BMW M engineer Jürgen Schwenker replied in a Spring 2011 interview regarding the 1M (see here or here):

"Q: Would it not have been possible to reduce the weight of the BMW 1 Series M Coupé to closer to 1,400 kilos instead of the 1,570 kilos achieved? After all, a number of body parts had to be redeveloped anyway. What would have been the additional cost for the customer if the 1,400 kg target had been reached ?
A: It is unrealistic to expect a weight reduction of 170 kilos on an existing basic vehicle. The M3 CSL and M3 GTS show where the reasonable limits lie. It would be necessary to develop a completely new car from scratch – which would, of course, also mean a completely different price scale. [...]"

[Davil]

Originally Posted by robertm

Agreed it would be very cool if the CS went on a diet as part of the package. I wonder though if losing the radio/speakers/Air conditioning was an option to save 200 lbs how many people would actually select? I suspect it would be a low percentage.

No-one would buy it. They would all be complaining that it had no radio, speakers or air conditioning and that BMW was charging extra for less.

Most of these arguments are straw man or sour grapes.

Buy it if you want it, don't buy it if you don't. That's where it starts and ends for me.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Not saying you're wrong but Carfolio and Ultimatespecs are highly suspect, worse than wikipedia, which i wouldn't necessarily trust either.

Again, they may well have the right numbers but (and i know this is going to sound weird) I used to look up car specs professionally and those two sites were specifically on the "do not cite from here" list.

Generally speaking its tough to get car weights as even manufacturers themselves can put BS numbers out there (*Cough Lamborghini and Ferrari cough*)

Nothing beats a car that's actually been measured on a scale. It's less common now, but reputable car magazines used to always weigh their vehicles, so if you can find an old issue of Car and Driver or something that'll have a reliable weight listed.

No offense taken at all. I just did a quick Google search and lets be honest, its not like the internet is ever right lol.
On a more interesting note, you had a job where you look up car specs?
I want that job

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

No offense taken at all. I just did a quick Google search and lets be honest, its not like the internet is ever right lol.
On a more interesting note, you had a job where you look up car specs?
I want that job

Well, you live in the right town for it! My job was at turn 10 down in RTC.

[F87_LCI]

I was offered a CS allocation when they came out last year. At the time I owed an OG LCI. I was prepared to pay MSRP for the CS, but I wanted to have it painted in SO (a colour already offered on the M2C). BMW flat out said "Nein. No changes on the CS".

I now own a 2020 GT4...and it's awesome.

[j23]

Originally Posted by Davil

No-one would buy it. They would all be complaining that it had no radio, speakers or air conditioning and that BMW was charging extra for less.

What makes you say that nobody would buy it?

Radio and AC delete would most likely be configurable, just like they have been on the CSL and Porsches for years. You - the owner - get to decide if you want the AC/radio delete. I can promise you there would be no shortage of people who would gladly delete the radio, and some even the AC, depending on their geographical location.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Well, you live in the right town for it! My job was at turn 10 down in RTC.

That would be an awesome place to work. I love the Forza series. Did you know Colin that works there? He has a twin turbo G35.

[buckybadger]

At that price point the M2CS doesn't make sense.
I will probably buy a Porsha haha!

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

That would be an awesome place to work. I love the Forza series. Did you know Colin that works there? He has a twin turbo G35.

We didn’t work on the same team or anything, but we’ve chatted a couple of times. I had a 350z when I worked there so there was a VQ connection. His G35 made a buttload of power if I remember correctly, i think it was 600+ hp.

It was a fun place for sure, good things happen when you have that many people in one place who all share a passion.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Well, you live in the right town for it! My job was at turn 10 down in RTC.

That is awesome!