[j23]

Originally Posted by W///

You guys do realize that this literally the same conversation when the E46 M3 CSL came out right? Is it really worth that much more than regular M3? Just 2 color choices? SMG only? Yuck.

Now look at how much they're worth and how much they're revered. The M2CS will follow the same path.

Not a good example by any stretch IMO.

First of all, nobody knows if M2CS will follow the same path. That remains to be seen. It's pure speculation at this point. If the M3CS is anything to go by at this point, then it's safe to assume the M2CS will suffer the same (or similar) fate. Same story with M4GTS and e92 M3 GTS, which were also hyped to "follow the same path", but never did, not even close.

The e46 M3 CSL was a truly raw, lightweight version of the e46 M3. It weighed a whooping 300-350 lbs less, depending on how it was configured. The M2CS reduces virtually zero weight from the M2C.

CSL also came with true bucket seats whereas the standard e46 M3 did not. CSL could have been configured with no radio and no AC. No such things available in the M2CS.

Lastly, the CSL was never available in the US, which was one of the reasons why it became so desirable and "special" in the eyes of so many enthusiasts. The demand went through the roof worldwide shortly after production ceased.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by infinitekidM2C

If you're a modder than the comp is your best bet i think. The CS's adaptive suspension is not height adjustable and the car needs a drop. The CS tune is good but still leaving hp and torque on the table so Stage 1 is still desirable. Wheels, no issue there unless you want to get something real unique. Carbon parts are just eye candy but the front lip and spoiler is cool. If the difference was around $10k, then it'd be worth it for me. Have we beaten this debate to death yet? Kick it one more time...

Surely you jest! This discussion won't end until they are all sold and old.

I agree that if you want to build a track machine then modding the Comp is the way to go. It only takes a quick look over at the M4 forum to find out that those interested in track times are ripping out the adaptive suspension for coilovers, which is a kind of PIA since the car is wired for it.

[kart driver]

Originally Posted by j23

Not a good example by any stretch IMO.

First of all, nobody knows if M2CS will follow the same path. That remains to be seen. It's pure speculation at this point. If the M3CS is anything to go by at this point, then it's safe to assume the M2CS will suffer the same (or similar) fate. Same story with M4GTS and e92 M3 GTS, which were also hyped to "follow the same path", but never did, not even close.

The e46 M3 CSL was a truly raw, lightweight version of the e46 M3. It weighed a whooping 300-350 lbs less, depending on how it was configured. The M2CS reduces virtually zero weight from the M2C.

CSL also came with true bucket seats whereas the standard e46 M3 did not. CSL could have been configured with no radio and no AC. No such things available in the M2CS.

Lastly, the CSL was never available in the US, which was one of the reasons why it became so desirable and "special" in the eyes of so many enthusiasts. The demand went through the roof worldwide shortly after production ceased.

Absolutely agree. I just don’t get where they took an idea that M2cs wight become of special value in the future like M3csl. Production numbers are not low, weight is the same, the car has nothing extraordinary.

[W///]

Originally Posted by j23

Not a good example by any stretch IMO.

First of all, nobody knows if M2CS will follow the same path. That remains to be seen. It's pure speculation at this point. If the M3CS is anything to go by at this point, then it's safe to assume the M2CS will suffer the same (or similar) fate. Same story with M4GTS and e92 M3 GTS, which were also hyped to "follow the same path", but never did, not even close.

The e46 M3 CSL was a truly raw, lightweight version of the e46 M3. It weighed a whooping 300-350 lbs less, depending on how it was configured. The M2CS reduces virtually zero weight from the M2C.

CSL also came with true bucket seats whereas the standard e46 M3 did not. CSL could have been configured with no radio and no AC. No such things available in the M2CS.

Lastly, the CSL was never available in the US, which was one of the reasons why it became so desirable and "special" in the eyes of so many enthusiasts. The demand went through the roof worldwide shortly after production ceased.

Originally Posted by kart driver

Absolutely agree. I just don’t get where they took an idea that M2cs wight become of special value in the future like M3csl. Production numbers are not low, weight is the same, the car has nothing extraordinary.

What I mean to say is not that it will be as valuable as a CSL in terms of price, but it will be revered to a certain extent. That's my fault.

You guys look at the CS as not special because you can't have AC delete, doesn't have bucket seats and the fact you can have one without a radio. You guys keep mentioning weight, but you're comparing cars that are over a decade apart. If we're doing that, then I can say the E46 M3 CSL is not that raw compared to an E30 M3 Evo

My point is this - I'm not trying to say that the car will be for sure 6 figures like a CSL, it will be revered in THIS CURRENT GENERATION. What do I mean by that? The M2 CS is arguably the most driver focused for the road, compact and fun M car BMW has from the Fxx generation. The only other car that would maybe match would be the M4 GTS but even then, I think the M2CS shines more, and the reviews seem to reflect that. The point of contention is whether it's worth that much more than the Comp, rather than whether it's a good car or not.

Instead of focusing on the negatives, look at the positives of this car (and highlight that this is in 2020, and not mid 2000s):
- CF roof and hood
- Optional CCB
- 6MT available

I personally would have loved to see a CSL moniker, with rear seat delete, a bespoke CF trunk, carbon buckets from the G80/2. I think this would have really differentiated it against the M3/4 CS, which I don't rank them in the same category anyway.

At the end of the day, this is the trend I want to highlight - the most aggressive versions of the smallest M cars have all gone on to do well:
- E30 M3, especially latter versions
- E36 M3, GT (in Europe) and LTW (in US)
- E46 M3 CSL
- 1M
- E92 GTS and E90 CRT

I don't see this trend all of a sudden breaking with the M2CS. The value of these cars brand new were all questioned, yet they all went down as the best cars BMW made at that time period.

I understand car magazines try to be sensationalists, but I see why we keep seeing these comparos over and over again:


Of course we can agree to disagree. Good day

[NISFAN]

Jeeez, you guys have rose tinted goggles for the M3CSL.
Let's look at the facts.
It came with the much unloved DSG gearbox only, (with an awkward looking shifter). It wasn't much more powerful than the stock M3, only 17hp which is a 5% uplift versus the 6.5% uplift for M2CS.
It was less than 250lb lighter in full light mode, (not 300+)but many cars came with radio and a/c. So not actually that much lighter than the standard version. Performance was mainly due to tyres. Similar to M2C vs M2CS in fact.
It also took a while for the M3CSL to mature into a classic. And helped to an extent that the E92 was a big departure from the E46, which wasn't always seen as a step forward. More hot rod than canyon carver.......so don't judge M4CS / GTS just yet.

The biggest differentiator of the M3CSL in my opinion is the noise it makes. That's what made it special. Unfortunately for the 2CS it sounds similar to the C.

Whilst I don't think the CS will ever be M3CSL status, it will be sought after enough to go towards justifying its price difference, especially to those that will be keeping them longer term.

[W///]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Jeeez, you guys have rose tinted goggles for the M3CSL.
Let's look at the facts.
It came with the much unloved DSG gearbox only, (with an awkward looking shifter). It wasn't much more powerful than the stock M3, only 17hp which is a 5% uplift versus the 6.5% uplift for M2CS.
It was less than 250lb lighter in full light mode, (not 300+)but many cars came with radio and a/c. So not actually that much lighter than the standard version. Performance was mainly due to tyres. Similar to M2C vs M2CS in fact.
It also took a while for the M3CSL to mature into a classic. And helped to an extent that the E92 was a big departure from the E46, which wasn't always seen as a step forward. More hot rod than canyon carver.......so don't judge M4CS / GTS just yet.

The biggest differentiator of the M3CSL in my opinion is the noise it makes. That's what made it special. Unfortunately for the 2CS it sounds similar to the C.

Whilst I don't think the CS will ever be M3CSL status, it will be sought after enough to go towards justifying its price difference, especially to those that will be keeping them longer term.

Far better succinctly put than what I wrote, couldn't agree more. I'll let you reply for me next time

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by W///

Far better succinctly put than what I wrote, couldn't agree more. I'll let you reply for me next time

Thank you, I didn't see your post when writing mine. Great minds and all that

[j23]

Originally Posted by W///

You guys look at the CS as not special because you can't have AC delete, doesn't have bucket seats and the fact you can have one without a radio. You guys keep mentioning weight, but you're comparing cars that are over a decade apart. If we're doing that, then I can say the E46 M3 CSL is not that raw compared to an E30 M3 Evo

You're either confusing yourself or conveniently reading between the lines.

I was comparing e46 M3 CSL vs e46 M3 - there was a 300-350 lbs difference between the two. Meanwhile, there's no difference in weight between M2C and M2CS. That was my point. So despite all these expensive CF bits, the car is not lighter by any stretch.

Not sure why you chose to compare e46 M3 CSL against the e30 M3 Evo. Now that makes no sense.

[j23]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Jeeez, you guys have rose tinted goggles for the M3CSL.
Let's look at the facts.
It came with the much unloved DSG gearbox only, (with an awkward looking shifter). It wasn't much more powerful than the stock M3, only 17hp which is a 5% uplift versus the 6.5% uplift for M2CS.
It was less than 250lb lighter in full light mode, (not 300+)but many cars came with radio and a/c. So not actually that much lighter than the standard version. Performance was mainly due to tyres. Similar to M2C vs M2CS in fact.
It also took a while for the M3CSL to mature into a classic. And helped to an extent that the E92 was a big departure from the E46, which wasn't always seen as a step forward. More hot rod than canyon carver.......so don't judge M4CS / GTS just yet.

The biggest differentiator of the M3CSL in my opinion is the noise it makes. That's what made it special. Unfortunately for the 2CS it sounds similar to the C.

Whilst I don't think the CS will ever be M3CSL status, it will be sought after enough to go towards justifying its price difference, especially to those that will be keeping them longer term.

That's false.

CSL had a curb weight of about 1,385 kg, which is roughly 3,050 lbs. That's anywhere from 300-350 lbs lighter than the standard e46 M3, which typically weighed a tad over 3,400 lbs.

300-350 lbs is a lot of freaking weight saved, no matter how you slice it.

[scoale]

Originally Posted by j23

That's false.

CSL had a curb weight of about 1,385 kg, which is roughly 3,050 lbs. That's anywhere from 300-350 lbs lighter than the standard e46 M3, which typically weighed a tad over 3,400 lbs.

300-350 lbs is a lot of freaking weight saved, no matter how you slice it.

This.

I am a fan of the M2CS...I like every change (with exception of getting rid of arm rest). That said, the M3CSL weight reduction was MASSIVE. If the M2CS was 250 to 300 lbs lighter than the M2 Comp, this thread would be replaced with a thread on how to deal drugs or sell kidneys to get one.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by j23

I was comparing e46 M3 CSL vs e46 M3 - there was a 300-350 lbs difference between the two. Meanwhile, there's no difference in weight between M2C and M2CS. That was my point. So despite all these expensive CF bits, the car is not lighter by any stretch.

Did a quick Google search
E46 M3 CSL 3,053 lbs link: https://www.carfolio.com/bmw-m3-csl-107635
E46 M3 3,241 lbs link: https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...%203241%20lbs.

That's 188 lbs.

Even if you just look at the Wiki Page, take that with a grain of salt, obviously, there's still only a 240 lbs. difference. Thats still like a 7% difference at most.

[robertm]

Originally Posted by scoale

This.

I am a fan of the M2CS...I like every change (with exception of getting rid of arm rest). That said, the M3CSL weight reduction was MASSIVE. If the M2CS was 250 to 300 lbs lighter than the M2 Comp, this thread would be replaced with a thread on how to deal drugs or sell kidneys to get one.

Agreed it would be very cool if the CS went on a diet as part of the package. I wonder though if losing the radio/speakers/Air conditioning was an option to save 200 lbs how many people would actually select? I suspect it would be a low percentage.

[j23]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Did a quick Google search
E46 M3 CSL 3,053 lbs link: https://www.carfolio.com/bmw-m3-csl-107635
E46 M3 3,241 lbs link: https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...%203241%20lbs.

That's 188 lbs.

Even if you just look at the Wiki Page, take that with a grain of salt, obviously, there's still only a 240 lbs. difference. Thats still like a 7% difference at most.

Let's talk real world numbers, pal.

Show me a stock e46 M3 that weighed 3,241 lbs. Never happened. I owned this car for over a decade. Never seen or heard of a stock e46 M3 under 3,300 lbs, let alone 3,241. Realistic everyday weight of a stock e46 M3 is in the range of 3,400-3,450 lbs.

Even with Recaro seats, full lightweight exhaust (including headers), Lightweight Volk 18" wheels, 6MT, OEM CSL bootlid, and center console delete, I was barely getting under 3,300 lbs.
The reason why the CSL was several hundred lbs lighter was not only due to CF parts, but also because of lack of sound deadening. The entire rear boot was practically cardboard too.

[j23]

Originally Posted by scoale

I am a fan of the M2CS...I like every change (with exception of getting rid of arm rest). That said, the M3CSL weight reduction was MASSIVE. If the M2CS was 250 to 300 lbs lighter than the M2 Comp, this thread would be replaced with a thread on how to deal drugs or sell kidneys to get one.

Couldn't agree more. Massive weight savings would actually justify the price in the eyes of most hardcore enthusiasts (including me). The fact that the M2CS is as heavy as the M2C is and will forever remain a huge letdown, make no mistake about that.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by j23

That's false.

CSL had a curb weight of about 1,385 kg, which is roughly 3,050 lbs. That's anywhere from 300-350 lbs lighter than the standard e46 M3, which typically weighed a tad over 3,400 lbs.

300-350 lbs is a lot of freaking weight saved, no matter how you slice it.

Sorry but we will have to agree to disagree. The difference is 110kg. Even BMW's own CSL engineer stated this during pre launch interviews.

[Acetech]

It keeps being stated that. The M2CS is the same weight as the same as the C.
I never thought that would be the case considering all the changes and everything I research indicates a decent weight reduction on the CS.
Part of the confusion comes from euro comparisons where the lighter blue brakes are standard on a C.

Here's what I see at a glance
US spec M2C 6 speed 3600 lbs DCT+55 lbs
I do see one C owner weighed his 6spd at 3565lbs
Euro spec M2CS 1563kg = 3445 lbs DCT +55
Add CCBs and the 6 speed is 1525kg = 3362 lbs
Now it gets more interesting considering the weight of the OPFs that we won't get here in the USA, it's been suggested they weigh 15kg each.
I'll be putting mine on the scale when it arrives.

[medphysdave]

iirc when specced with CCB the CS is 50kg lighter than the C. I know we see a lot of reference to no weight savings, but I recall when diving into the actual weights there is a 25kg difference without ccb and a 50kg difference with ccb. In US spec. Euro comps equipped with the blue brakes would have a narrower margin.

[j23]

Originally Posted by Acetech

It keeps being stated that. The M2CS is the same weight as the same as the C.
I never thought that would be the case considering all the changes and everything I research indicates a decent weight reduction on the CS.
Part of the confusion comes from euro comparisons where the lighter blue brakes are standard on a C.

Here's what I see at a glance
US spec M2C 6 speed 3600 lbs DCT+55 lbs
I do see one C owner weighed his 6spd at 3565lbs
Euro spec M2CS 1563kg = 3445 lbs DCT +55
Add CCBs and the 6 speed is 1525kg = 3362 lbs
Now it gets more interesting considering the weight of the OPFs that we won't get here in the USA, it's been suggested they weigh 15kg each.
I'll be putting mine on the scale when it arrives.

That kind of weight analysis doesn't work. I've witnessed many BMW ///M cars being weighed over the years while getting corner-balanced on the scales. All of them were much heavier than advertised.

You need real world numbers. I can promise you that your M2CS won't weigh much less than the M2C, if at all. Prepare to be disappointed with its weight. I'll be anxiously awaiting those numbers lol. The little weight reduction offered by the CF bits is likely offset by extra heat exchangers.

[Acetech]

Well considering we have a 6 spd M2C owner that has shared his car's weight on scales at 3565 lbs = 1617 kg
Now Sport auto put the euro spec M2CS on scales too and found 1588 kg = 3500 lbs, now that was a DCT car with steel brakes, so to get apples to apples let's subtract 55 lbs for the DCT = 25kg so a euro spec 6 spd should come in around 1563 kg = 3445 lb

Now we will see when we can actually put our hands on US spec cars and weigh them but I'd say it's a far safer bet to say the CS is lighter than the C than is is to say they are the same.

[kart driver]

That is pretty simple:

Preowned M2cs, which have 4000 kilometers and are just 4-5 months old already offered with a significant discount:


M2cs optioned as 115K euro is offered now at 85K euro
https://suchen.mobile.de/auto-insera...311352152.html



This one was I think in the range of 105K euro and is now offered at 83K euro
https://suchen.mobile.de/auto-insera...310413865.html


I think it gives a good impression of the price for M2cs was fair or overpriced

And these are not just 2 cars on mobile.de. The list M2cs offered on mobile.de is pretty impressive.

[j23]

Originally Posted by Acetech

Well considering we have a 6 spd M2C owner that has shared his car's weight on scales at 3565 lbs = 1617 kg
Now Sport auto put the euro spec M2CS on scales too and found 1588 kg = 3500 lbs, now that was a DCT car with steel brakes, so to get apples to apples let's subtract 55 lbs for the DCT = 25kg so a euro spec 6 spd should come in around 1563 kg = 3445 lb

Now we will see when we can actually put our hands on US spec cars and weigh them but I'd say it's a far safer bet to say the CS is lighter than the C than is is to say they are the same.

Euro spec this, DCT that, let's this and let's that. Weight math does not work like this in the real world, trust me.

Considering the original point was about M3 CSL weight savings over standard e46 M3, there is simply no way the M2CS will come anywhere close to those weight savings.

Are we now debating whether the M2CS is 0-50 lbs lighter than the M2C at 30% price increase?

Let's wait for real world numbers. Let's see US M2CS and US M2C (both 6MT) weighed using the same scale, same gas. Dying to see this in order to settle it once and forever.

[AlpsRider]

There was a weight discussion between the OG M2 and the M2C. People were calling the M2C fatty and piggy. One member had an OG when he took deliverey if his M2C. He weighed them, it turns out that the real world weight difference was about 70lbs. The weight increase is very small considering the S55 engine and it's added cooling plus much heavier brakes on the US M2C.

I seriously doubt if there will be much difference in weight between the CS and the C. Maybe the Ceramic brakes will drop the weight a bit but that's a $10k option isn't it? Some weight reduction might be due to the 763 wheels.