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      11-02-2020, 05:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by scoale View Post
Artemis, your F87 is BAD A$$. Can't wait to get me one. Now I need to decide what color...the car looks great in so many colors -including black. I'm definitely getting 763s
Your forthcoming 'room with a view'.





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      11-02-2020, 07:04 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tag View Post
That front badge makes me sick, it looks like they are really whoring out the M badging on non-M cars even more than ever. The rear badge, if I were to guess, looks like it might say ///M240i. I get what you're saying regrading design carry over, but BMW has shown us when they departed from the more traditional kidney grille of the G20 for the new huge grille of the G22 that there is no precedent anymore. The M3/4 are also examples of this.

What really bothers me is that they're are incorporating these new fugly grilles for the Chinese market. I get it, they are a business and need to be profitable. But, they shouldn't impose this on all markets, they are not the same. Make one bumper for the Chinese market with huge ugly grilles and another for all other markets. I don't understand why they can't do that. They already make different style bumpers for each of the model lines, such as the bumper of the 330i and M340i.
Hell they make an entire different line of cars for that market -all the 3 and 5 series Li- not to mention they are mostly build there already so no need for different parts at the same assembly line.

Saw the new M3/M4 and spy pics of the upcoming 2 series, said screw that and ordered an M2, currently in transit
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      11-02-2020, 07:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The G42 2er serves as basis for BMW M to create the G87 M2.

Here's a pre-production G42 2er that leaked earlier this year (look closer: it features an ///M logo on the front bumper and a weird boot badge):
That front badge makes me sick, it looks like they are really whoring out the M badging on non-M cars even more than ever. The rear badge, if I were to guess, looks like it might say ///M240i. I get what you're saying regrading design carry over, but BMW has shown us when they departed from the more traditional kidney grille of the G20 for the new huge grille of the G22 that there is no precedent anymore. The M3/4 are also examples of this.

What really bothers me is that they're are incorporating these new fugly grilles for the Chinese market. I get it, they are a business and need to be profitable. But, they shouldn't impose this on all markets, they are not the same. Make one bumper for the Chinese market with huge ugly grilles and another for all other markets. I don't understand why they can't do that. They already make different style bumpers for each of the model lines, such as the bumper of the 330i and M340i.
Are we sure they are doing this for the Chinese market? Every comment I've seen in these pages suggests there's no one in China loving these designs either.
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      11-03-2020, 11:48 AM   #48
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Trained designer eyes of a BMW X5 designer commenting on the new 4-series design language: see from 06:27 to 13:43:



From Summer 2019:
BMW Provoked Global Reaction To Oversize Grille On Purpose
Michael Taylor - Forbes - Jun 28, 2019,07:36am EDT - here

German premium brand BMW knew it the grille on its upgraded 7 Series this year would draw a massive reaction. And it did.
It is the grille that gave birth to a thousand memes and it continues to be pilloried in social media. Worse, it took the focus off the upgrades to the flagship limousine and then found its way onto the gigantic X7 SUV as well.
The image of BMW as a design leader took off in the 1970s with the 3.0-liter CS and the 2002, but BMW's embattled design chief Adrian van Hooydonk admitted he had steeled himself for a backlash to the work his team had done to the 7 Series.
“The briefing we got was to make sure people understood the difference (between the 7 and the 5) and notice it," the Dutch designer explained.
"We are not a start up. We are not looking for 100,000 new customers, but we have to bring two million with us every year.
“When we launched the car (the pre-facelift 7 Series) it was quite smaller. The feedback we got on that was that people couldn’t see enough difference to the predecessor.
“On the 7 I understand that people can be shocked. I notice the criticism. I think in a way it’s inevitable. My objective is to do something that everybody likes but it’s not always possible.”
van Hooydonk admitted he had been hurt by the criticism of the grille, which took the original kidney concept of BMW and turned it more into a set of lungs. From a racehorse.
He still argues, though, that the much-criticized grille was more at home on the gigantic X7, where the sheer size of the 5.2-meter SUV gave it a more natural home.
“It’s more a 7 Series discussion than anything else and the backlash is more or less the same as we expected,” he said.
“The X7 was launched at the same time and that’s why it’s thrown into that discussion but the X7 grill is proportional to the size of the vehicle.
“All the cars in that segment are typically quite big.”
That grille became a BMW fan lightning rod for what is perceived as a loss of grace and athleticism and design courage at the Bavarian brand, with the mainstay 3 and 5 Series models creeping forward incrementally, rather than pushing design forward.
In his defence, van Hooydonk suggested the car's awkward note was largely struck because of different customer priorities around the world, with the strongest criticisms coming from Europe.
“The 7 has always been the hardest to bring the expectations of the entire world into one shape. The customers are very, very different in China, the US, the Middle East and in Europe,” he explained.
In Europe, people don’t want to get noticed. They don’t like being asked what they paid for a car and they like things in black, like a stealth mode. They want the grille in black because they don't want people to notice it.
The rest of the world is the opposite. We tried to give the Europeans what they want as well but the strongest market for the 7 is not Europe.
The numbers back that up. Its strongest markets are the US and China, with Europe a distant third.
Welcome relief may be on its way, though. van Hooydonk insisted the world's customer tastes were converging, rather than pulling apart, and that the painfully obvious grille of the current 7 Series might not be needed on the next generation.
“For the next generation 7 our job will become slightly easier. It’s usually only in the 7 that these tastes are diverging so much but the customer profiles will be less different in five or 10 years. People’s tastes are converging.”
There's another upside for the most criticized design chief on any of the European premium carmakers. The BMW is selling more current 7 Series models than it did of the pre-facelifted versions.
Another point of defence from van Hooydonk is his insistence that the near future will be more about interior designs than exteriors. [...]
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      11-14-2020, 06:55 AM   #49
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Having seen the new M3, M4, iNext etc... I haven't seen a new car since the 8 series that I've liked.

I've completely lost faith in BMW's direction as a sports/fun car enthusiast. If you like luxury or fast autobahn yachts then sure... but if you want a fun car... I've lost hope.

I am not just talking about the aesthetic design. The new M3 and M4 are substantially heavier despite all the expensive carbon.

I got myself an M2C before they halt production. If BMW find their way back to 'ultimate driving machine' then I'll reconsider but I'm not holding my breath. I'm just happy I have my M2C.
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      11-14-2020, 09:07 AM   #50
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As far as I'm concerned, everything hinges on the G87 for me. All my Ms currently are NA so I'd like to own at least one FI car before the manuals are killed off. If the G87 doesn't turn out the way I want, I could always revert back to the F87C, maybe even a CS in about 5 years.

I think people on this forum are counting out the G87 way too fast
1) I never ever judge a car by amateur or even magazine photshops. I followed the F87 since before this subgroup even existed and not one looked as good as end product
2) I don't see much of a point in comparing that car with the G80/2. Sure the weight is not ideal, but has anyone driven one? I don't judge a car purely by specs. I don't care about lap times and 3s acceleration, nor do I care that people complained about the F87 not being that much lighter than F82 (or did we forget that all of a sudden)

Please do understand I love the F87, and might still pull the trigger on a used one later. I just think that if the G87 ends up being the very last manual 6MT car M ever makes, it certainly deserves a chance.
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      11-15-2020, 11:35 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
As far as I'm concerned, everything hinges on the G87 for me. All my Ms currently are NA so I'd like to own at least one FI car before the manuals are killed off. If the G87 doesn't turn out the way I want, I could always revert back to the F87C, maybe even a CS in about 5 years.

I think people on this forum are counting out the G87 way too fast
1) I never ever judge a car by amateur or even magazine photshops. I followed the F87 since before this subgroup even existed and not one looked as good as end product
2) I don't see much of a point in comparing that car with the G80/2. Sure the weight is not ideal, but has anyone driven one? I don't judge a car purely by specs. I don't care about lap times and 3s acceleration, nor do I care that people complained about the F87 not being that much lighter than F82 (or did we forget that all of a sudden)

Please do understand I love the F87, and might still pull the trigger on a used one later. I just think that if the G87 ends up being the very last manual 6MT car M ever makes, it certainly deserves a chance.
I, too, am not ready to give up on the G87. In my view, it has the potential to be a better M4 than the current F82. From a styling perspective, the M2 is stubby and the current M4 looks stretched...the G87 will be longer than the M2 but shorter than the M4 - it could be just right. One of the biggest complaints about the M2 is its ride quality. If the G87 comes with adaptive suspension, the M3CS I've driven has demonstrated to me that BMW can fix that. I would also say that the S55 is not universally loved. In fact, many M2 owners prefer the N55! The S58 may satisfy all parties. In addition, the steering could be improved. Lastly, I'm holding out hope on the weight. The G chassis is lighter, it could have a carbon fiber roof, and the wheels/brakes on the M2C are heavy as hell. Of course, if it all goes to hell, everyone can keep their current M2s!
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      11-16-2020, 07:00 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoale View Post
I, too, am not ready to give up on the G87. In my view, it has the potential to be a better M4 than the current F82. From a styling perspective, the M2 is stubby and the current M4 looks stretched...the G87 will be longer than the M2 but shorter than the M4 - it could be just right. One of the biggest complaints about the M2 is its ride quality. If the G87 comes with adaptive suspension, the M3CS I've driven has demonstrated to me that BMW can fix that. I would also say that the S55 is not universally loved. In fact, many M2 owners prefer the N55! The S58 may satisfy all parties. In addition, the steering could be improved. Lastly, I'm holding out hope on the weight. The G chassis is lighter, it could have a carbon fiber roof, and the wheels/brakes on the M2C are heavy as hell. Of course, if it all goes to hell, everyone can keep their current M2s!
It's actually interesting that we agree on the G87, but not for exactly the same reasons.


- I think the F87C rides just fine, my E36 M3 and the Z4MR have a stiffer ride and one came like that from factory. Never had the chance to drive an M3/4 CS, although my E92 M3 rides amazing.
- S55 didn't sound great, but just like the E46 M3, it eventually evolved into a good sounding engine in the Z4M. Still not the absolute best sounding I6 BMW has ever made, but I'm OK with it, and from my test drive Friday, I'd be ok with leaving it as is. I've got a lot of seat time in the S58, and it's an evolution, rather than revolution in terms of exhaust sound. N55T is a good engine, but to me does not have remotely the character of an S55.
- Agreed with the steering, this will be an interesting one.

My biggest concern is how the S58 will drive in the G87. I'm desperately eager to read reviews and test drive the G80/2 myself with a manual. I find the S55 supremely linear, whereas the S58 in the F97/8 has to be in the right setting and right RPM (ie over 3.5-4k to really wake up).

Those are some big shoes for the G87 to fill, but I'm excited we still get cars like these. I think this era is coming to an end unfortunately.
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      12-28-2020, 12:30 AM   #53
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Most people usually like their comfort zones, points of reference, familiar quirks ('iconic' aspects). It's about connection. Hence the preference for incremental 'upgrade' changes, rather than for radical 'upgrade' changes (except if the existing iteration was conceptually not OK and definitely required a change for the better: an overhaul or redesign).

M3 (nowadays M3/M4) is the flagship of BMW M, the pet of the M class, the pars pro toto. Needless to say that the all-new G80 M3 / G82 M4 got, and keeps getting, polarizing reactions. BMW seems to be well-aware of that. BMW M must have known that some of its latest choices risked to stir emotions amongst its fanbase, but likely thought that those would cool down as time goes by.
I agree about the "points of reference" - witness the protests when a few of the recent BMW model introductions (the new 4er among them) abandoned the Hofmeister Kink (just one example). Common/iconic design cues need not significantly restrain the overall design - it simply helps make a new car look "like a BMW".

Also agree BMW are very aware of the polarized reactions to the new M3/M4 - and I bet they like the general reaction. When the 7er was dramatically redesigned in 2001, it got a lot of attention, most of it negative. Yet we know what happened after that - ppl went out and bought a ton of them. I proffer that many of these early 21st century 7-series buyers bought it cz they wanted to be seen in a car that ppl were talking about - something getting a lot of attention. It doesn't matter that most of the attention was negative - they just wanted any attention, sort of like when your dog misbehaves when you're ignoring it (a scolding is apparently better than being ignored).
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      12-28-2020, 02:17 AM   #54
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Intend on keeping & enjoying my F87 for some time, it's also far from finished yet.
Only future BMW I would even consider would be the G87 & given BMWs current ethos of building barges targeted at the every day motorist rather than enthusiasts I'll more than likely be moving to a Cayman, Alpine or Exige when the time comes.
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      12-28-2020, 03:35 AM   #55
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I can't see any logical reason to change out the M2 for a different car in the near future. Just changing cars to have the latest and greatest seems silly and wasteful.

If anything, I'll add more cars rather than just trading out something perfectly good at its intended purpose.
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      12-28-2020, 02:09 PM   #56
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I'm considering to get the G81 Touring (wagon) as the kid hauler but will keep my M2c. Biggest drawback for me on the G81 is lack of manual offering (and no DCT as a fallback).
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      12-28-2020, 04:15 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TargaM2 View Post
Intend on keeping & enjoying my F87 for some time, it's also far from finished yet.
Only future BMW I would even consider would be the G87 & given BMWs current ethos of building barges targeted at the every day motorist rather than enthusiasts I'll more than likely be moving to a Cayman, Alpine or Exige when the time comes.
Same here. When I got the M2, I just thought it clicked all the boxes for me. Didn't realize in the next 2-3 years the car design world would become the way it is today.

When I do go for another car, I will be adding to the garage not replacing it.
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      12-28-2020, 09:20 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by bobert View Post
I agree about the "points of reference" - witness the protests when a few of the recent BMW model introductions (the new 4er among them) abandoned the Hofmeister Kink (just one example). Common/iconic design cues need not significantly restrain the overall design - it simply helps make a new car look "like a BMW".

Also agree BMW are very aware of the polarized reactions to the new M3/M4 - and I bet they like the general reaction. When the 7er was dramatically redesigned in 2001, it got a lot of attention, most of it negative. Yet we know what happened after that - ppl went out and bought a ton of them. I proffer that many of these early 21st century 7-series buyers bought it cz they wanted to be seen in a car that ppl were talking about - something getting a lot of attention. It doesn't matter that most of the attention was negative - they just wanted any attention, sort of like when your dog misbehaves when you're ignoring it (a scolding is apparently better than being ignored).
Your bet is correct (but beware of marketing talk - a CEO defends his products):
"Question: Some BMW fans, as their comments on social media show, are appalled by the huge BMW kidneys that adorn the front of new models. What to make of the new Munich opulence ?
Zipse [BMW CEO] (laughs): BMW history shows that our kidneys have always evolved. In the 1950s, for example, these were very vertical. Then these became smaller and flatter again. It's good that our kidneys are in motion. Because the kidneys are a symbol of BMW. We are pleased when people write about the BMW kidneys. The worst thing would be if no-one noticed that something was happening at BMW. The new kidneys are an eye-catcher that you have to get used to, because it's also about BMW's design language for the future. By the way, we are getting a lot of encouragement for this new design language."
"Manche BMW-Fans sind, wie ihre Kommentare in sozialen Medien zeigen, entsetzt über die riesige BMW-Niere, welche die Front von neuen Modellen ziert. Was ist von der neuen Münchner Üppigkeit zu halten?
Zipse (lacht): Die BMW-Geschichte zeigt, dass unsere Niere sich immer weiterentwickelt hat. In den 50er-Jahren zum Beispiel war sie sehr senkrecht. Dann wurde sie wieder kleiner und flacher. Es ist gut, dass unsere Nieren in Bewegung sind. Denn die Niere ist ein Symbol von BMW. Wir freuen uns, wenn über die BMW-Nieren geschrieben wird. Das Schlimmste wäre doch, wenn keiner merkt, dass sich bei BMW etwas tut. Die neue Niere ist ein Hingucker, an den man sich gewöhnen muss, geht es hier doch auch um die Designsprache von BMW in der Zukunft. Wir bekommen für diese neue Designsprache übrigens viel Zuspruch."

(source: here [December 2020 interview] - see also here)
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      12-28-2020, 09:27 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
As far as I'm concerned, everything hinges on the G87 for me. All my Ms currently are NA so I'd like to own at least one FI car before the manuals are killed off. If the G87 doesn't turn out the way I want, I could always revert back to the F87C, maybe even a CS in about 5 years.

I think people on this forum are counting out the G87 way too fast
1) I never ever judge a car by amateur or even magazine photshops. I followed the F87 since before this subgroup even existed and not one looked as good as end product
2) I don't see much of a point in comparing that car with the G80/2. Sure the weight is not ideal, but has anyone driven one? I don't judge a car purely by specs. I don't care about lap times and 3s acceleration, nor do I care that people complained about the F87 not being that much lighter than F82 (or did we forget that all of a sudden)

Please do understand I love the F87, and might still pull the trigger on a used one later. I just think that if the G87 ends up being the very last manual 6MT car M ever makes, it certainly deserves a chance.
Placed an order for a M2 Comp to replace my 2017 M2...probably the last DCT was one reason.
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