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      11-25-2019, 12:33 PM   #1
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Why does the BMW M2 CS weigh the same as the M2 Competition?

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/11/23/b...2-competition/

"The M2 Clubsport is shaping up to be the darling of the BMW community, so naturally, it’s a hot topic today. And nothing gets people going more than the weight of new cars. When asked whether the BMW M2 CS weighs the same as the M2 Competition, Herr Flasch said the following:

They weigh about the same, all things considered, unless you equip the M2 CS with the carbon ceramic brakes which save about 25 kilograms (55 lbs),” Flasch told us. “The reason for being the same weight as the M2 Competition, is the additional things we put in.”

When unveiled, BMW communicated a curb weight of the M2 CS at 3,417 lbs. (1,551 kg).

Compared to the M2 Competition, the BMW M2 CS does get additional weight savings from the carbon fiber hood and carbon fiber roof, but it gets the Adaptive M Suspension as standard which likely adds some kilos to the car.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VTBoss302 View Post
Simply for comparison purposes

M Performance CF Front Splitter
M Performance CF Hood
M Performance CF Roof
M Performance CF Mirror Caps
M Performance CF Rear Spoiler
M Performance CF Rear Diffuser
M Performance 763M Wheel and Tire Set
M Adaptive suspension
CS seats
carbon center console
Alcantara steering
alcantara trim
M Performance red brake calipers
M Performance CS exhaust

it sure seems interesting , perplexing, and downright disappointing that all of the item added/deleted items simply cancelled each other out when it comes to saving weight.


Looking at the list of parts that are swapped out.... it sort of begs the question.. what items ADDED weight... and why were they necessary to be included instead of offering some weight savings?

Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 11-25-2019 at 12:52 PM..
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      11-25-2019, 01:11 PM   #2
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Agreed 1000%

I'm somewhat unsatisfied that the weight between the 2 are very similar.

I understand that certain items weigh more ect...but, you would of thought that there would still be at least a 70-90 pound weight savings at a minimum.

The car looks fantastic and great ect. However, I can't stop thinking that for the $25k premium there just isn't enough there to make it special enough to take the plunge.

At a lower price point maybe yes....however, low to mid 80's I just don't think so.
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      11-25-2019, 01:14 PM   #3
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I'm not faulting BMW for the lack of weight reduction on the CS and I'm sure there is a reasonable rhyme behind the reason.

I mean, I'm sure they're not trying to spite anyone but there are only so many meaningful ways to reduce mass and not change the profile or its overall targeted price..

Same as with the M340i, as it claimed a weight reduction in comparison to the prior model because it was built on the lightweight CLAR platform but all the new ancillary equipment bought the weight back up.

M340i Weight Increase https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1599263

I've accepted that this is just the way the game goes, even when they switch over to EVs, the battery would weight down the body, so the lard-laced built vehicles are here to stay.
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      11-25-2019, 01:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Looking at the list of parts that are swapped out.... it sort of begs the question.. what items ADDED weight... and why were they necessary to be included instead of offering some weight savings?
I don't really know the answer to your question, but some things to consider (if you haven't already)

In addition to the M adaptive suspension, the article does mention that there are a few things which could add some weight

"Three radiators, an oil cooler, two pumps in the oil pan, and an oil sump baffle are some of the mechanical upgrades of the M2 CS."

However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if most if not all of these "upgrades" end up being about as true as the N55 in the M2 having a closed deck

Another thing that is unclear is which spec of M2 C Herr Flasch was referring to in relation to the M2 CS

A "base" spec M2 C in many markets is considerably lighter than a USA spec car which comes standard with the 2NH brake package and power seats that add a considerable amount of weight
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      11-25-2019, 01:28 PM   #5
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So, it must be that the adaptive suspension and the enhanced cooling system weight about as much as the savings from the CFRP hood/roof and the CF center console, etc.
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      11-25-2019, 04:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I'm not faulting BMW for the lack of weight reduction on the CS and I'm sure there is a reasonable rhyme behind the reason.

I mean, I'm sure they're not trying to spite anyone but there are only so many meaningful ways to reduce mass and not change the profile or its overall targeted price..

Same as with the M340i, as it claimed a weight reduction in comparison to the prior model because it was built on the lightweight CLAR platform but all the new ancillary equipment bought the weight back up.

M340i Weight Increase https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1599263

I've accepted that this is just the way the game goes, even when they switch over to EVs, the battery would weight down the body, so the lard-laced built vehicles are here to stay.


I'm already making the point that there is NOT rhyme or reason I can see or understand or even weigh..... so ..do me a favor and THINK for a sec and Tell me what pieces that they installed are heavier ..

Or.. provide a reasonable rhyme behind the reason aside from simply suggesting there is one.
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      11-25-2019, 04:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTBoss302 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Looking at the list of parts that are swapped out.... it sort of begs the question.. what items ADDED weight... and why were they necessary to be included instead of offering some weight savings?
I don't really know the answer to your question, but some things to consider (if you haven't already)

In addition to the M adaptive suspension, the article does mention that there are a few things which could add some weight

"Three radiators, an oil cooler, two pumps in the oil pan, and an oil sump baffle are some of the mechanical upgrades of the M2 CS."

However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if most if not all of these "upgrades" end up being about as true as the N55 in the M2 having a closed deck

Another thing that is unclear is which spec of M2 C Herr Flasch was referring to in relation to the M2 CS

A "base" spec M2 C in many markets is considerably lighter than a USA spec car which comes standard with the 2NH brake package and power seats that add a considerable amount of weight

All cooling items quoted are in the M2C as well as the M2 CS.

The M2 CS press literature also quoted solid subframe mounts but those were on the OG M2. So let's not take all of the press literature as being new info.
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      11-25-2019, 04:50 PM   #8
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The aluminum hood and roof are very lightweight already so you do not get much benefit going to carbon fiber. The only benefit is bragging rights and exclusivity, and of course the extra $$$.
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      11-25-2019, 04:56 PM   #9
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I think if anything, you're mentally overstating how much weight savings any of the CS options actually provide

Lot of people want to perceive the M2 CS as an M3 CSL just because we compare the M2 with the E46 M3 and the CS is the best of the generation like the CSL and it comes in a similar limited edition number.

CS = Competition Sport

CSL = Coupe Sports Lightweight
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      11-25-2019, 05:10 PM   #10
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Also, the M2 CS has slightly better lap times than the M2c is because of the cup 2 tires and tune.

Slap on cup 2 tires and get a BM3 CS+ tune on the M2c and times will be equal around the track.
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      11-25-2019, 05:25 PM   #11
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Yeah, I remember back in '16 when a 3450 lb curb weight was considered fat. It still may be. But then I look at the current offerings.
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      11-25-2019, 05:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Or.. provide a reasonable rhyme behind the reason aside from simply suggesting there is one.
Maybe it's related to the fact that rules for car weight figures have been tightened ?

Most high performance car manufacturers made a sport of it to list the lowest weight possible with car configurations that almost no customer chose, for low weight bragging rights purposes. For a good example, see here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Remember Andreas Preuninger recently trying to talk his way out in interviews when tackling the topic of the 80kg weight increase - on paper - of the 718 GT4 (2019) compared to the 981 GT4 (2015) (1420 kg vs 1340 kg), emphasizing that it's only about 30kg extra rather than 80kg extra.
See from 13:28 to 15:21 in this video (comparing spec sheets: "it's deceiving, deceiving").
Fair enough, but that implies that the 1340kg figure quoted by Porsche back in 2015 for the bare-bones 981 GT4 was actually not representative for GT4 cars sold 'in real life' and would be around 1390kg when weighed with nowadays standards.
Last June, in the Sport Auto interview, AP also disclosed that for 'delete' features "the take-rate is at maximum 2%": see from 12:51 to 13:25 in this video.
So though the 1340 kg figure may be technically true for the 981 GT4 and back then the car could have been ordered that way, but that won't be the usual GT4 sold 'in real life' back then.
Good thing that regulations force car manufacturers to provide figures (weight, fuel consumption, range, emissions) that are closer to 'real life'.
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      11-25-2019, 05:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
CS = Competition Sport
CSL = Coupe Sports Lightweight
See here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
AFAIK:
  • "CS" stands for "Club Sport" or "Clubsport"
  • "CS" does neither stand for "Coupé Sport" nor for "Competition Sport" (though that moniker was used back in 2016 for 60 special M4 cars sold on the Spanish market: see here and here);
  • "CSL" stands for "Coupé Sport Leichtbau" ("Coupé Sport Lightweight (construction)").
See more in general the dedicated thread by moderator Law here ("Origins of BMW CS & CSL Models").

However, some press mentions that "CS" in "M2 CS" stands for "Competition Sport".

BMW launch materials expressly refer to "Clubsport" (see here):
This immensely capable car also serves as a basis for the BMW M2 CS Racing model, BMW M Motorsport’s new entry point to amateur racing and the new Clubsport segment from the 2020 season.
“The joint development of the BMW M2 CS and BMW M2 CS Racing underscores the close links between BMW Motorsport and BMW M GmbH,” explains Markus Flasch, Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW M GmbH. “Our skillsets converge at the midway point between high-performance cars for the road and all-out racing machines – i.e. in the expanding Clubsport segment. We’re covering this niche with the Clubsport variant of the BMW M2 CS Racing and will be working in a similar direction with future special-edition models from BMW M.”
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      11-25-2019, 05:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Looking at the list of parts that are swapped out.... it sort of begs the question.. what items ADDED weight... and why were they necessary to be included instead of offering some weight savings?
Sports seats in Merino leather featuring cut-outs (M3/M4 CS), 763M wheels, same fuel tank capacity, no center console armrest with storage cubbyhole, no wireless charging & WiFi hotspot, no comfort access option, no glass roof option, 60/40 foldable rear seats in Merino leather instead of 40/20/40 foldable rear seats in Dakota leather with armrest (including cupholders) & load-through option, no lumbar support for front seats option, no heated steering wheel option, no Driving Assistant option ('Lane Departure Warning' & 'Collision & Pedestrian Warning'), no driver's knee pad, no Polar Blue or Kyalami Orange contrast-stitching, no USB slot inside the cupholders space, no airco + 12V-socket at the rear side of the middle console, no blue-colored or silver-colored brake calipers, etc. all for the sake of weight saving or difference. And still.

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      11-25-2019, 06:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I'm not faulting BMW for the lack of weight reduction on the CS and I'm sure there is a reasonable rhyme behind the reason.

I mean, I'm sure they're not trying to spite anyone but there are only so many meaningful ways to reduce mass and not change the profile or its overall targeted price..

Same as with the M340i, as it claimed a weight reduction in comparison to the prior model because it was built on the lightweight CLAR platform but all the new ancillary equipment bought the weight back up.

M340i Weight Increase https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1599263

I've accepted that this is just the way the game goes, even when they switch over to EVs, the battery would weight down the body, so the lard-laced built vehicles are here to stay.


I'm already making the point that there is NOT rhyme or reason I can see or understand or even weigh..... so ..do me a favor and THINK for a sec and Tell me what pieces that they installed are heavier ..

Or.. provide a reasonable rhyme behind the reason aside from simply suggesting there is one.
I wish I had an appropriate answer to wow you with because it makes little sense to me also.

I guess I just took it up on faith that BMW has our best interest at heart and if there was a meaningful way to reduce the heft, they would of.. But what do I know, I'm just assuming.. :
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      11-25-2019, 06:04 PM   #16
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They are both complete fat asses

M2 Chubby & M2 Chubby 2.0
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      11-25-2019, 06:19 PM   #17
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If you'd been even remotely paying attention for the last 10+ years, you'd quickly realize BMW has not been honest about a single weight figure... and when they mention weight savings there is a huge asterisks.
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      11-25-2019, 06:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
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They are both complete fat asses

M2 Chubby & M2 Chubby 2.0
Pretty much!

We need a return to the 3200-3300 weight class!

That with the current HP and Torque would make for a pretty mean machine 😁
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      11-25-2019, 06:22 PM   #19
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Here's what I don't understand: if weight is truly of utmost importance, why don't folks just buy Lotuses? Not trying to be a pain in the butt. Honestly asking for real. My understanding is that Lotus makes incredibly light weight, pure, stripped down driver's cars, with great performance. But, by the same token, my understanding is that they're perpetually on the verge of bankruptcy.

So, I don't get that. If weight is truly so crucial in a performance car, I would have thought that Lotus sales would be through the roof. And, yet, they seem always to be one foot in the grave.

What gives?
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      11-25-2019, 06:27 PM   #20
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Am I missing something? It sounds like the M2 CS weighs a bit *less* than an OG M2. Why is everyone saying in this thread that it weighs the same as the M2C?

M2C 6MT - 3561 lbs
OG M2 6MT - 3450 lbs
M2CS 6MT - 3417 lbs
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      11-25-2019, 06:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
Here's what I don't understand: if weight is truly of utmost importance, why don't folks just buy Lotuses? Not trying to be a pain in the butt. Honestly asking for real. My understanding is that Lotus makes incredibly light weight, pure, stripped down driver's cars, with great performance. But, by the same token, my understanding is that they're perpetually on the verge of bankruptcy.

So, I don't get that. If weight is truly so crucial in a performance car, I would have thought that Lotus sales would be through the roof. And, yet, they seem always to be one foot in the grave.

What gives?
Their engine and transmission is very disappointing.
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      11-25-2019, 06:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Hearsay.

It's what somebody said they were told by somebody.
ok... so basically we don't know for sure yet.
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