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      02-16-2022, 09:27 PM   #1
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Recently, after picking up my car the shop told me the startup is rough and when starting it, the car idle is pulsing almost the whole time till it drops down in RPM. The sound isn't a consistent loud sound and sounds like it is hiccuping. When warmed started, the RPM will sometimes drop under 1k RPMs and shoot back up or it'll go right to 1k RPMs and then jump up a little. It doesn't do it every time and the shop said it is most likely the fuel injectors and that they need to be replaced. Also, when driving the car, it feels fine and has no CEL. When scanning the car, the shop said it reads that misfires in all the cylinders and on BM3 it has a code with the exhaust valve.

As well, my reasoning for being in the shop was because I just got my wastegate rod fixed (since it snapped), had it readjusted accordingly, and just got NGK step colder spark plugs, gapped accordingly to my setup at 17,900 milage. In addition, I recently had coil ignitions and an oil change done at 16,500 milage (1,400 miles ago), reflashed the tune on my car and reset adaptations after fixing the wastegate and the rough idle is still there, so I don't understand what would be causing it

For performance, I am running the 8374 Borg Warner Stage 3 EFR kit (comes with catless downpipe, exhaust manifold, turbo inlet, intercooler outlet pipe, hosing, ect.), Eventuri V1 intake, Wagner Tuning competition evo III, Dorch Engineering N55 stage 2 high pressure fuel pump, BootMod3 stage 2 custom tune, and FI Exhaust valvetronic catback system

Right now I am running a very conservative 93 pump gas tune. I had the shop look at the air to flow ratio, timing, and boost pressure during WOT just in case and all readings were fine. I'm running 21 PSI, timing at 7 seconds, and forgot the air to fuel ratio number but he said it's running how it should.

I'm thinking either the spark plugs weren't gapped accordingly for my big turbo setup, the intake valve needs cleaning, pvc valve needs cleaning, injectors need cleaning or need to be replaced, or maybe it's from my last gas fill up (Mobil gas fill because I was nearly empty). I hear no rattles or weird noises. The only thing I hear are the injectors ticking loud on startups (which is normal), if anyone has any idea what may be causing this, please let me know.

Thanks, Shane
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      02-17-2022, 03:46 PM   #2
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Vacuum Leak? Was it doing it before it went in to the shop that reported it?
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      02-17-2022, 04:06 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Vacuum Leak? Was it doing it before it went in to the shop that reported it?
no, but I reset adaptations, reflashed tune today, cleared codes and it went away. after revving in nuetral at the end it dips below 1k and goes back up. I think the car just had to learn the new wastegate ?
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      02-18-2022, 04:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Vacuum Leak? Was it doing it before it went in to the shop that reported it?
today, my car had a slight delay in start up and said misfires in all cylinders and RPM randomly shot down mid highway driving after I downshifted. also, burbles are being super strange, like 2 burbles come out now and the last one is super loud at max aggression, max RPMs, with 2.5 durations. after revving, the RPM shoots down and goes back to normal idle range. do you think this is from bad spark plug installation ?
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      02-18-2022, 04:58 PM   #5
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Did they recalibrate the wastegate via ISTA since they had to replace the rod?
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      02-18-2022, 05:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneguags View Post
Recently, after picking up my car the shop told me the startup is rough and when starting it, the car idle is pulsing almost the whole time till it drops down in RPM. The sound isn't a consistent loud sound and sounds like it is hiccuping. When warmed started, the RPM will sometimes drop under 1k RPMs and shoot back up or it'll go right to 1k RPMs and then jump up a little. It doesn't do it every time and the shop said it is most likely the fuel injectors and that they need to be replaced. Also, when driving the car, it feels fine and has no CEL. When scanning the car, the shop said it reads that misfires in all the cylinders and on BM3 it has a code with the exhaust valve.

As well, my reasoning for being in the shop was because I just got my wastegate rod fixed (since it snapped), had it readjusted accordingly, and just got NGK step colder spark plugs, gapped accordingly to my setup at 17,900 milage. In addition, I recently had coil ignitions and an oil change done at 16,500 milage (1,400 miles ago), reflashed the tune on my car and reset adaptations after fixing the wastegate and the rough idle is still there, so I don't understand what would be causing it

For performance, I am running the 8374 Borg Warner Stage 3 EFR kit (comes with catless downpipe, exhaust manifold, turbo inlet, intercooler outlet pipe, hosing, ect.), Eventuri V1 intake, Wagner Tuning competition evo III, Dorch Engineering N55 stage 2 high pressure fuel pump, BootMod3 stage 2 custom tune, and FI Exhaust valvetronic catback system

Right now I am running a very conservative 93 pump gas tune. I had the shop look at the air to flow ratio, timing, and boost pressure during WOT just in case and all readings were fine. I'm running 21 PSI, timing at 7 seconds, and forgot the air to fuel ratio number but he said it's running how it should.

I'm thinking either the spark plugs weren't gapped accordingly for my big turbo setup, the intake valve needs cleaning, pvc valve needs cleaning, injectors need cleaning or need to be replaced, or maybe it's from my last gas fill up (Mobil gas fill because I was nearly empty). I hear no rattles or weird noises. The only thing I hear are the injectors ticking loud on startups (which is normal), if anyone has any idea what may be causing this, please let me know.

Thanks, Shane
Before bringing it into the shop did you have these issues?

If not I don't think it is all of a sudden an injector issue it could be one of the following:

1) Vaccum leak because someone didn't connect it back together properly: like mfifty said.

2) It could be the wastegate isn't properly calibrated like zm2 said.

3) Did you check the maf sensor to ensure it isn't dirty and is plugged in correctly?

4) check all coil connections, and fuel injector connections. It is hard to see this being the cause for misfires on all cylinders but worth a check.

5) What is your spark plug gap? I see you said it was gapped for your conditions but may I know what that is?

6) check the pcv hoses to ensure they're connected properly, and that the seal in the oil filter cap is properly sealed and presented and not damaged. Vaccum leaks from the crank case can cause these issues but there would be a code associated.

7) what are the other codes? and does the issue persist past idle conditions?

8) mobil gas is generally good quality, but you can run a tank with fuel system cleaner if you think it was bad gas.


Otherwise there is no way it is the intake valves being dirty at 18k miles if it is then you have more significant issues, and it could be the pcv system being messed up but that is really uncommon at such low mileage.
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      02-18-2022, 05:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneguags View Post
Recently, after picking up my car the shop told me the startup is rough and when starting it, the car idle is pulsing almost the whole time till it drops down in RPM. The sound isn't a consistent loud sound and sounds like it is hiccuping. When warmed started, the RPM will sometimes drop under 1k RPMs and shoot back up or it'll go right to 1k RPMs and then jump up a little. It doesn't do it every time and the shop said it is most likely the fuel injectors and that they need to be replaced. Also, when driving the car, it feels fine and has no CEL. When scanning the car, the shop said it reads that misfires in all the cylinders and on BM3 it has a code with the exhaust valve.

As well, my reasoning for being in the shop was because I just got my wastegate rod fixed (since it snapped), had it readjusted accordingly, and just got NGK step colder spark plugs, gapped accordingly to my setup at 17,900 milage. In addition, I recently had coil ignitions and an oil change done at 16,500 milage (1,400 miles ago), reflashed the tune on my car and reset adaptations after fixing the wastegate and the rough idle is still there, so I don't understand what would be causing it

For performance, I am running the 8374 Borg Warner Stage 3 EFR kit (comes with catless downpipe, exhaust manifold, turbo inlet, intercooler outlet pipe, hosing, ect.), Eventuri V1 intake, Wagner Tuning competition evo III, Dorch Engineering N55 stage 2 high pressure fuel pump, BootMod3 stage 2 custom tune, and FI Exhaust valvetronic catback system

Right now I am running a very conservative 93 pump gas tune. I had the shop look at the air to flow ratio, timing, and boost pressure during WOT just in case and all readings were fine. I'm running 21 PSI, timing at 7 seconds, and forgot the air to fuel ratio number but he said it's running how it should.

I'm thinking either the spark plugs weren't gapped accordingly for my big turbo setup, the intake valve needs cleaning, pvc valve needs cleaning, injectors need cleaning or need to be replaced, or maybe it's from my last gas fill up (Mobil gas fill because I was nearly empty). I hear no rattles or weird noises. The only thing I hear are the injectors ticking loud on startups (which is normal), if anyone has any idea what may be causing this, please let me know.

Thanks, Shane
Before bringing it into the shop did you have these issues?

If not I don't think it is all of a sudden an injector issue it could be one of the following:

1) Vaccum leak because someone didn't connect it back together properly: like mfifty said.

2) It could be the wastegate isn't properly calibrated like zm2 said.

3) Did you check the maf sensor to ensure it isn't dirty and is plugged in correctly?

4) check all coil connections, and fuel injector connections. It is hard to see this being the cause for misfires on all cylinders but worth a check.

5) What is your spark plug gap? I see you said it was gapped for your conditions but may I know what that is?

6) check the pcv hoses to ensure they're connected properly, and that the seal in the oil filter cap is properly sealed and presented and not damaged. Vaccum leaks from the crank case can cause these issues but there would be a code associated.

7) what are the other codes? and does the issue persist past idle conditions?

8) mobil gas is generally good quality, but you can run a tank with fuel system cleaner if you think it was bad gas.


Otherwise there is no way it is the intake valves being dirty at 18k miles if it is then you have more significant issues, and it could be the pcv system being messed up but that is really uncommon at such low mileage.
everything you stated was checked and fine, I asked about maf, pvc, hosings, injectors, and coil ignitions, all was checked out. only thing I think is the issue are the spark plugs. he said he'll do it again for free to check if they bad and he said I can upgrade them even more but not needed. he gave me NGK 97968 step 1 colder plugs, stating if doesn't need more unless it's past 700whp. however, everywhere I'm seeing recommends NGK 97506 even just on stage 2 FBO. also, he stated he gapped them to .018 because he found that works best and have had issues with even .020. he said he gaps all turbo cars that are tuned to .018 for the most part and have fixed issues, but to me that doesn't sound right. I heard cars near 500whp should be at .022-.023 and right now I'm pushing 535whp on 21PSI (not crazy high boost). he said I can choose what I want with no extra cost, but if they issue still persists, I'll have to pay again with installation
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      02-18-2022, 05:30 PM   #8
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Pulsing Rough Idles

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Did they recalibrate the wastegate via ISTA since they had to replace the rod?
yes, they scanned it, making sure the replacement and readjustment was perfect. no wastegate codes are popping up like before, so I believe it is a spark or fueling issue right now, engine is healthy
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      02-18-2022, 05:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneguags View Post
everything you stated was checked and fine, I asked about maf, pvc, hosings, injectors, and coil ignitions, all was checked out. only thing I think is the issue are the spark plugs. he said he'll do it again for free to check if they bad and he said I can upgrade them even more but not needed. he gave me NGK 97968 step 1 colder plugs, stating if doesn't need more unless it's past 700whp. however, everywhere I'm seeing recommends NGK 97506 even just on stage 2 FBO. also, he stated he gapped them to .018 because he found that works best and have had issues with even .020. he said he gaps all turbo cars that are tuned to .018 for the most part and have fixed issues, but to me that doesn't sound right. I heard cars near 500whp should be at .022-.023 and right now I'm pushing 535whp on 21PSI (not crazy high boost). he said I can choose what I want with no extra cost, but if they issue still persists, I'll have to pay again with installation
I don't like saying this but your mechanic is kind of uninformed about the spark plugs. You never gap based on the "prescribed" limits not two cars are ever the same, that is how you get rough idles.

At 500 whp you probably will need to start gapping down, but generally you would start at the stock gap and go down as needed, so start at 0.028" and gap down based on misfires due to the spark plug being blown out. But at 500 whp I wouldn't mind starting at 0.026 or even 0.025 then going down from there - I wouldn't go to 0.022 or 0.023 right away. You always want the largest possible gap to rpomote complete combustion.

BTW a gap of 0.018 is insanely tight for 500 whp, and generally in any application. At that point you should be looking for more powerful coils rather than gapping down that much, and I would wager this is what is causing your issues.

ZM2 was having some issues awhile ago on 0.023" gap iirc, and it went away after increasing the gap to 0.026". BTW ZM2 are you still on 0.026" gap with your turbo pushing essentially 500 whp? If this is the case then shane you should be safe around this range too. Maybe you can start at 0.025" (and move your way down as necessary, but remember you want the largest gap possible not the smallest one possible.




Also your mechanic is wrong about the heat range of your plugs too... The stock ones are already 1 step colder than the normal n55's and 2 steps colder than the n54 and are the same heat range as the GTR's which run fine up to 700 whp. You also don't want to go colder if it is not needed because that also causes incomplete combustion and misfies although these engines seem to tolerate it just fine. But just letting you know so you don't waste your money on ngk's for no reason. There is alot of misinformation about plugs out there and unfortunately alot of shops and "tuners" are misinformed too, and I generally use this as a sign to weed out the good shops from the not so good shops.
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      02-18-2022, 05:50 PM   #10
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F87source Yup.

OP, that gap is too tight.
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      02-18-2022, 05:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
F87source Yup.

OP, that gap is too tight.
Yeah seems like 0.026" is the perfect application on your car. That's actually a really good thing because the gap isn't too much smaller than factory and since you're not running into issues you don't need upgraded coils either!



But yeah shaneguags your gap is way too small and likely the cause of your misfires and rough idles. I had a hunch that could be the issue. I know alot of sources (including tuning companies) say to run a tight gap but that really should not be the case, they really should say to go as large as possible and gap down as your individual situation requires not gap to some specific number because it will work if you make so x amount of power. This simply is not the case and doesn't work. So IMO get new plugs gap at 0.026" or 0.025" (your pick) and move down as needed. Remember the bigger the gap the better.
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      02-18-2022, 06:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
F87source Yup.

OP, that gap is too tight.
Yeah seems like 0.026" is the perfect application on your car. That's actually a really good thing because the gap isn't too much smaller than factory and since you're not running into issues you don't need upgraded coils either!



But yeah shaneguags your gap is way too small and likely the cause of your misfires and rough idles. I had a hunch that could be the issue. I know alot of sources (including tuning companies) say to run a tight gap but that really should not be the case, they really should say to go as large as possible and gap down as your individual situation requires not gap to some specific number because it will work if you make so x amount of power. This simply is not the case and doesn't work. So IMO get new plugs gap at 0.026" or 0.025" (your pick) and move down as needed. Remember the bigger the gap the better.
okay sounds good, most people seem to run .022 or .023 is that still too low ? thicwhip's M2 was just around 500whp or a little under (I think 490whp) and used .023, stating that the car ran perfect. also, protuningfreaks recommends 0.22 on their website for stage 2 and also recommended NGK 97506 is the way to go for anything FBO stage 2. Additionally, I emailed cary jordan to see what his input was and he said I should also run NGK 95706 at 0.22 for pump gas. Also, evolve automotive stated, "When tuning your BMW N55, S55, S63TU it is recommended to go with 1-step colder spark plugs. We've found the NGK 97506 working great when gapped to appropriate spec. If you'll be running less than 30psi of boost we suggest a 0.022-0.023 gap. We've gone to 0.018 on some cars with 30+psi but in most cases that isn't needed and will cause rough idle in some cases. In most cases though we just go with the 0.022-0.023 gap."

I feel like my best option is probably going with NGK 97506 and doing a .022 or .023, keeping in mind that I'm also big turbo. if that doesn't fix much, then it's gotta be the injectors, but I don't see how they would be going bad already at only 17,900 miles
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      02-18-2022, 06:43 PM   #13
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1. Don’t listen to Cary Jordan. Halim’s Stg 2+ E30 OTS beta tunes blew away Cary’s custom tunes on my car. Even after 10 revisions he couldn’t get it right.

2. Thicwhips never hit that kind of whp bc he never upgraded his HPFP: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...highlight=Thic
And, his dyno video proved that the Stg 2 93 BM3 OTS tune outperformed his custom tunes @ ~400whp.

3. Don’t listen to the hype. F87source converted me and my car has been purring ever since.

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      02-18-2022, 06:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
1. Don't listen to Cary Jordan. Halim's Stg 2 E30 OTS beta tunes blew away Cary's custom tunes on my car. Even after 10 revisions he couldn't get it right.

2. Thicwhips never hit that kind of whp bc he never upgraded his HPFP: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...highlight=Thic
And, his dyno video proved that the Stg 2 93 BM3 OTS tune outperformed his custom tunes @ ~400whp.

3. Don't listen to the hype. F87source converted me and my car has been purring ever since.
damn yea I just went back and never saw the hpfp install. so NGK 97506 and .025 gapping you'd say ?
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      02-18-2022, 06:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneguags View Post
damn yea I just went back and never saw the hpfp install. so NGK 97506 and .025 gapping you'd say ?
Yup, your car is going to love it!
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      02-18-2022, 07:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneguags View Post
damn yea I just went back and never saw the hpfp install. so NGK 97506 and .025 gapping you'd say ?
Yup, your car is going to love it!
okay sweet ! also, part of me thinks the guy just wants me to do the injectors because it could be a potential issue like he said and if I do it, he'll make more money. also, can I get an explanation why higher numbers are better for combustion. I lowkey don't understand this stuff lol
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      02-18-2022, 07:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneguags View Post
okay sounds good, most people seem to run .022 or .023 is that still too low ? thicwhip's M2 was just around 500whp or a little under (I think 490whp) and used .023, stating that the car ran perfect. also, protuningfreaks recommends 0.22 on their website for stage 2 and also recommended NGK 97506 is the way to go for anything FBO stage 2. Additionally, I emailed cary jordan to see what his input was and he said I should also run NGK 95706 at 0.22 for pump gas. Also, evolve automotive stated, "When tuning your BMW N55, S55, S63TU it is recommended to go with 1-step colder spark plugs. We've found the NGK 97506 working great when gapped to appropriate spec. If you'll be running less than 30psi of boost we suggest a 0.022-0.023 gap. We've gone to 0.018 on some cars with 30+psi but in most cases that isn't needed and will cause rough idle in some cases. In most cases though we just go with the 0.022-0.023 gap."

I feel like my best option is probably going with NGK 97506 and doing a .022 or .023, keeping in mind that I'm also big turbo. if that doesn't fix much, then it's gotta be the injectors, but I don't see how they would be going bad already at only 17,900 miles
1) I can't tell you that, no two cars are the same so you will have to start large gap down if needed. The key is thinking about it as no two cars are the same, and stop listening to all this misinformation.

2) I never liked thicc whips, I watched some of his videos and he did have some misinformation in them so I stopped watching.

3) Yes I know PTF recommend that and they shouldn't. But since PTF is geared towards the non enthusiasts who want to set it and forget it they kind of have to try and make things as simple as possible, not everyone wants to experiement.

4) I have nothing good to say about CJ. Leave it at that.

5) Evolve is a damn good shop, really top quality people. But wrong advice on plugs, GTR's have been using the stock heat range plugs for up to 700 whp without issue. Again this is a bench mark and your car can be diffferent. It is best to read the plug and if it is showing signs of running to hot then go colder, why waste money (NGK's are 4x more expensive than the bosch) and risk misfires doing so when it is not needed? With that being said our engines don't seem to be sensitive to colder plugs so it is fine, just a waste of money imo.


So again I would start as large as possible 0.026" or 0.025" and go down from there. If it were me I would actually be stock plug stock gap then go down from there, because I don't mind experimenting. But it would make logical sense (and have the highest probability of being ok on the first shot) to maybe go a bit smaller from stock since the highest power stock car using the same gap and plugs is the m4 gts. Again only you can find out what is right for your car.
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      02-18-2022, 07:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneguags View Post
damn yea I just went back and never saw the hpfp install. so NGK 97506 and .025 gapping you'd say ?
I would also do it myself if I were you, I kind of don't trust that shop anymore. But that's just me, I don't like letting people touch my cars.

Edit - if they were trying to get you to replace injectors when you didn't need to, especially since they didn't think about plugs first.
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      02-18-2022, 07:09 PM   #19
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okay sweet ! also, part of me thinks the guy just wants me to do the injectors because it could be a potential issue like he said and if I do it, he'll make more money. also, can I get an explanation why higher numbers are better for combustion. I lowkey don't understand this stuff lol
Higher number means bigger gap, this means a large spark as the speak travels a bigger distance the arc is bigger. More arc means more "surface area" to cause ignition and promote complete combustion of the fuel and air vapor mixture.
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      02-18-2022, 07:15 PM   #20
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okay sounds good, most people seem to run .022 or .023 is that still too low ? thicwhip's M2 was just around 500whp or a little under (I think 490whp) and used .023, stating that the car ran perfect. also, protuningfreaks recommends 0.22 on their website for stage 2 and also recommended NGK 97506 is the way to go for anything FBO stage 2. Additionally, I emailed cary jordan to see what his input was and he said I should also run NGK 95706 at 0.22 for pump gas. Also, evolve automotive stated, "When tuning your BMW N55, S55, S63TU it is recommended to go with 1-step colder spark plugs. We've found the NGK 97506 working great when gapped to appropriate spec. If you'll be running less than 30psi of boost we suggest a 0.022-0.023 gap. We've gone to 0.018 on some cars with 30+psi but in most cases that isn't needed and will cause rough idle in some cases. In most cases though we just go with the 0.022-0.023 gap."

I feel like my best option is probably going with NGK 97506 and doing a .022 or .023, keeping in mind that I'm also big turbo. if that doesn't fix much, then it's gotta be the injectors, but I don't see how they would be going bad already at only 17,900 miles
1) I can't tell you that, no two cars are the same so you will have to start large gap down if needed. The key is thinking about it as no two cars are the same, and stop listening to all this misinformation.

2) I never liked thicc whips, I watched some of his videos and he did have some misinformation in them so I stopped watching.

3) Yes I know PTF recommend that and they shouldn't. But since PTF is geared towards the non enthusiasts who want to set it and forget it they kind of have to try and make things as simple as possible, not everyone wants to experiement.

4) I have nothing good to say about CJ. Leave it at that.

5) Evolve is a damn good shop, really top quality people. But wrong advice on plugs, GTR's have been using the stock heat range plugs for up to 700 whp without issue. Again this is a bench mark and your car can be diffferent. It is best to read the plug and if it is showing signs of running to hot then go colder, why waste money (NGK's are 4x more expensive than the bosch) and risk misfires doing so when it is not needed? With that being said our engines don't seem to be sensitive to colder plugs so it is fine, just a waste of money imo.


So again I would start as large as possible 0.026" or 0.025" and go down from there. If it were me I would actually be stock plug stock gap then go down from there, because I don't mind experimenting. But it would make logical sense (and have the highest probability of being ok on the first shot) to maybe go a bit smaller from stock since the highest power stock car using the same gap and plugs is the m4 gts. Again only you can find out what is right for your car.
I had stock Borsch plugs actually. I believe they were gapped at .022, I forgot tbh. still had wastegate issues back then though, so I'll never know if they really did help or not. startup was normal tho, a few weird idles and some misfires.
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      02-18-2022, 09:03 PM   #21
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I had stock Borsch plugs actually. I believe they were gapped at .022, I forgot tbh. still had wastegate issues back then though, so I'll never know if they really did help or not. startup was normal tho, a few weird idles and some misfires.
0.022 might still be too small though and could be the cause of the misfires and stumbles.
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      02-19-2022, 05:41 AM   #22
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I had stock Borsch plugs actually. I believe they were gapped at .022, I forgot tbh. still had wastegate issues back then though, so I'll never know if they really did help or not. startup was normal tho, a few weird idles and some misfires.
0.022 might still be too small though and could be the cause of the misfires and stumbles.
with the M2 being forced induction with a turbo and tune, wouldn't we naturally want slightly tighter spark plug gapping ? since there is more boost pressure at 22 PSI, I would need to make sure I get a spark between all the compression. I feel like going slightly smaller would help, but obviously not to the extreme of .018 like how the shop did it. I feel like .023 would be the perfect medium
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