[jadis]

Originally Posted by ah3nyc

My South African 340 rattles like a horse carriage. Waiting for the Chinese version; disposable cars.

My Munich built 335 has not a single rattle, 40k miles. Hmmmm

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Eriphill

China signed on to a non binding agreement that allows them to pollute as much as they want for the next 13 years. Not exactly a shining example of environmentalism.

On the other hand they take extreme measures like road space rationing where the one day only even numberplates are allowed to drive and the other day only uneven numberplates to reduce the air pollution.
Can you imagine such a measure in the US?!? : "no sir...you're not allowed to drive today"
Something thàt extreme will never be possible in the US, yet China is doing that for nearly 10 years now when air pollution reaches unhealthy concentrations.
A pretty shining example I think?
Obviously measures like this have a very big impact on the economy, so they try to avoid it by promoting electric cars and electrich scooters (which are really popular). Far more than in the US.

A US citizen has one of the largest carbon footprints of all people in the world. The carbon footprint of a chinese citizen is nothing compared to that (almost 250% less per person...).
And in the end that's what counts, so the US still has to come a very long way before they're in the same league as most countries in the world...
So whatever you're calling 'not a shining example of environmentalism'; is still over twice as good as what the US does if you measure actual pollution per person. Those are the facts.

[backagain]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

On the other hand they take extreme measures like road space rationing where the one day only even numberplates are allowed to drive and the other day only uneven numberplates to reduce the air pollution.
Can you imagine such a measure in the US?!? : "no sir...you're not allowed to drive today"
Something thàt extreme will never be possible in the US, yet China is doing that for nearly 10 years now when air pollution reaches unhealthy concentrations.
A pretty shining example I think?
Obviously measures like this have a very big impact on the economy, so they try to avoid it by promoting electric cars and electrich scooters (which are really popular). Far more than in the US.

A US citizen has one of the largest carbon footprints of all people in the world. The carbon footprint of a chinese citizen is nothing compared to that (almost 250% less per person...).
And in the end that's what counts, so the US still has to come a very long way before they're in the same league as most countries in the world...
So whatever you're calling 'not a shining example of environmentalism'; is still over twice as good as what the US does if you measure actual pollution per person. Those are the facts.

Vehicle ownership per capita: 0.797 in US vs. 0.140 in China;
Total rail passenger-miles: 6.5 billion in US vs. 725 billion in China.

Freedom in US comes at a price, and I certainly enjoy that freedom, coming from China.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by backagain

Vehicle ownership per capita: 0.797 in US vs. 0.140 in China;
Total rail passenger-miles: 6.5 billion in US vs. 725 billion in China.

Freedom in US comes at a price,

The rest of the world doesnt call that freedom, but calls it wealth. Or just egocentric enviromental policy.
It has nothing to do with freedom imho.

And it does come at a price. An enviromental price.
Compared where I live (Netherlands) a US citizen also has a 60% higher carbon footprint. And we all drive cars here too. We just dont have an 8L escalade and 6L mustang parked on front. And the Netherlands isnt even a particular enviromental high ranking country compared to a lot of other western european countries. (even germany with all its heavy industry scores slightly better)

The point was that people giving off on china's enviromental policy whereas they should look at the amount of emissions the US is causing.

some interesting words:

[raysspl]

Preferably not, but if the business case & the actual results are equal or better than EU & US made cars, then the possibility of acceptance will be a bitter one

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

On the other hand they take extreme measures like road space rationing where the one day only even numberplates are allowed to drive and the other day only uneven numberplates to reduce the air pollution.
Can you imagine such a measure in the US?!? : "no sir...you're not allowed to drive today"
Something thàt extreme will never be possible in the US, yet China is doing that for nearly 10 years now when air pollution reaches unhealthy concentrations.
A pretty shining example I think?
Obviously measures like this have a very big impact on the economy, so they try to avoid it by promoting electric cars and electrich scooters (which are really popular). Far more than in the US.

A US citizen has one of the largest carbon footprints of all people in the world. The carbon footprint of a chinese citizen is nothing compared to that (almost 250% less per person...).
And in the end that's what counts, so the US still has to come a very long way before they're in the same league as most countries in the world...
So whatever you're calling 'not a shining example of environmentalism'; is still over twice as good as what the US does if you measure actual pollution per person. Those are the facts.

Obviously you have no idea what are you talking about.
- First, some countries in east Europe did that number plate strategy over 30 years ago.
- Rivers in China are DEAD, the pollution is insane. Not in US.
- An extremely large number of Chinese people suffer from pulmonary diseases and can not breath in big cities. Not in US.
- The carbon footprint of a Chinese citizen is nothing compared to a US Citizen? Wow, some simple grade 2 thinking will reveal that dividing US pollution to US citizens will give you a huge number than dividing China's pollution to 1.37 billion Chinese. Hello?

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/fe...h-sapping.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#c85efc236278


And,
I WILL NEVER BUY A CHINESE CAR!

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Obviously you have no idea what are you talking about.
- First, some countries in east Europe did that number plate strategy over 30 years ago.
- Rivers in China are DEAD, the pollution is insane. Not in US.
- An extremely large number of Chinese people suffer from pulmonary diseases and can not breath in big cities. Not in US.
- The carbon footprint of a Chinese citizen is nothing compared to a US Citizen? Wow, some simple grade 2 thinking will reveal that dividing US pollution to US citizens will give you a huge number than dividing China's pollution to 1.37 billion Chinese. Hello?

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/fe...h-sapping.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#c85efc236278


And,
I WILL NEVER BUY A CHINESE CAR!

The grade 2 thinking comment made me

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Obviously you have no idea what are you talking about.

....sure I dont...

- First, some countries in east Europe did that number plate strategy over 30 years ago.

What the hell has that to do with the united states?!?
You only underline now that there are multiple countries that are willing to take more measures than the US. You just made my arguments stronger!
FYI eastern europe != united states.

- Rivers in China are DEAD, the pollution is insane. Not in US.

Pollution is insane in both countries... Just look at the Ohio river or the years of pollution in lake Erie

- An extremely large number of Chinese people suffer from pulmonary diseases and can not breath in big cities. Not in US.

Air pollution causes 200k deaths/year in the us
http://news.mit.edu/2013/study-air-p...in-the-us-0829

- The carbon footprint of a Chinese citizen is nothing compared to a US Citizen? Wow, some simple grade 2 thinking will reveal that dividing US pollution to US citizens will give you a huge number than dividing China's pollution to 1.37 billion Chinese. Hello?

Seems that you must go back to the 2nd grade.
its the pollution per capita that counts. Or do you think it would be reasonable if a small country like monaco would pollute just as much as a country like china?
The pollution per capita is a very common accepted measurement of how much pollution is reasonable per country or area, especially if its about co2 emissions, where its the total summe of it that has the effect and localized effects are almost nil. (And this discussion started about the signed non binding agreement from china, and that is an agreement about CO2 emissions).
By your logic it would be perfectly fine if I would pollute 20 times as much as you do because my country only has 16 million inhabitants...
I'm amaized that you dont get that (or rather on this forum I'm not amaized at anything anymore..)

[Eriphill]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

On the other hand they take extreme measures like road space rationing where the one day only even numberplates are allowed to drive and the other day only uneven numberplates to reduce the air pollution.
Can you imagine such a measure in the US?!? : "no sir...you're not allowed to drive today"
Something thàt extreme will never be possible in the US, yet China is doing that for nearly 10 years now when air pollution reaches unhealthy concentrations.
A pretty shining example I think?
Obviously measures like this have a very big impact on the economy, so they try to avoid it by promoting electric cars and electrich scooters (which are really popular). Far more than in the US.

A US citizen has one of the largest carbon footprints of all people in the world. The carbon footprint of a chinese citizen is nothing compared to that (almost 250% less per person...).
And in the end that's what counts, so the US still has to come a very long way before they're in the same league as most countries in the world...
So whatever you're calling 'not a shining example of environmentalism'; is still over twice as good as what the US does if you measure actual pollution per person. Those are the facts.

They take extreme measures like you referenced above because their environment is toxic and they have no choice. That doesn't by any measure make them 'green'. It simply makes them reactionary. The fact is China is currently responsible for 30% of global emissions versus the U.S.'s 14% yet this hollow agreement gives China among others a 13 year pass. Good riddance

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Eriphill

The fact is China is currently responsible for 30% of global emissions versus the U.S.'s 14% yet this hollow agreement gives China among others a 13 year pass. Good riddance

Those numbers are from the EDGAR database and dont include all co2 emissions (land use emissions)

Anyway, its the co2 emission per capita that counts. And in that scope the US scores really really bad. All major western european countries score better, and so does china.
You dont seem to be bothered that you (you're canadian?) use almost twice more fossil energy as an average chinese dude, and still you judge him on that. How typical....
I imagine you as a fat bloke telling a skinny bloke to eat less, so you can eat more.

[backagain]

Originally Posted by Tracus

- An extremely large number of Chinese people suffer from pulmonary diseases and can not breath in big cities. Not in US.

It took US cities like LA over 50 years to control the air pollution problem. The 1948 LA photo looks just like the how Beijing is today.

Given time, there is hope for China down the road to have as clean air as US.

[Eriphill]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Those numbers are from the EDGAR database and dont include all co2 emissions (land use emissions)

Anyway, its the co2 emission per capita that counts. And in that scope the US scores really really bad. All major western european countries score better, and so does china.
You dont seem to be bothered that you (you're canadian?) use almost twice more fossil energy as an average chinese dude, and still you judge him on that. How typical....
I imagine you as a fat bloke telling a skinny bloke to eat less, so you can eat more.

Your main focus seems to be the fairness of the situation (per capita emissions etc). The fact that the Paris Accord is really a wealth redistribution scheme targeting the U.S. first and foremost in favor of developing nations is probably ok with you? Nice in theory but a pretty naive way of thinking in the real world. If the roles were reversed do you really think the communist Chinese government would handicap its own economy in favor of other nations? If you do you're living in a Euro fantasy land.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Eriphill

The fact that the Paris Accord is really a wealth redistribution scheme targeting the U.S. first and foremost in favor of developing nations is probably ok with you?

Those are your words.
Again, you're the fat bloke telling the skinny bloke not to eat so much so you can eat more.
And it shows in all your words. Afraid that you cant supersize another meal.

And yes, I think its more fair to restrict people who emit more co2 than people who emit less co2.
In europe we also are willing to take measurements that can potentially harm our economy, or at least cost money to try and secure a better climate for our children and the US is -how surprising- only thinking about themselves.
Luckily the california governor is willing to do something about Trumps selfish attitude.
China is even investing more budget (almost 50% more) into reasearch and development of clean energy than the US (the largest economy in the world).
Thats also a sign that the US is willing to do hardly anything. Even compared to the chinese that already consume 250% less fossil energy per person.
Basically you're telling a chinese guy he cant have a car while you have 3 V8's on your driveway. Way to go.

[Eriphill]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Those are your words.
Again, you're the fat bloke telling the skinny bloke not to eat so much so you can eat more.
And it shows in all your words. Afraid that you cant supersize another meal.

And yes, I think its more fair to restrict people who emit more co2 than people who emit less co2.
In europe we also are willing to take measurements that can potentially harm our economy, or at least cost money to try and secure a better climate for our children and the US is -how surprising- only thinking about themselves.
Luckily the california governor is willing to do something about Trumps selfish attitude.
China is even investing more budget (almost 50% more) into reasearch and development of clean energy than the US (the largest economy in the world).
Thats also a sign that the US is willing to do hardly anything. Even compared to the chinese that already consume 250% less fossil energy per person.
Basically you're telling a chinese guy he cant have a car while you have 3 V8's on your driveway. Way to go.

Luckily the President of the United States does not share your naive worldview. Buckle up it going to be a long 7.5 years hahaha

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Eriphill

Luckily the President of the United States does not share your naive worldview. Buckle up it going to be a long 7.5 years hahaha

No indeed, I share my worldview with the rest of the world.
And your largest state is already not agreeing with your president.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Obviously you have no idea what are you talking about.
- First, some countries in east Europe did that number plate strategy over 30 years ago.
- Rivers in China are DEAD, the pollution is insane. Not in US.
- An extremely large number of Chinese people suffer from pulmonary diseases and can not breath in big cities. Not in US.
- The carbon footprint of a Chinese citizen is nothing compared to a US Citizen? Wow, some simple grade 2 thinking will reveal that dividing US pollution to US citizens will give you a huge number than dividing China's pollution to 1.37 billion Chinese. Hello?

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/fe...h-sapping.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#c85efc236278


And,
I WILL NEVER BUY A CHINESE CAR!

Thank you for this. I'm shocked to see someone in here with an education. I congratulate you for speaking truth too all these idiots.

Thank you for posting up about particulate matter which is probably the single most damaging thing to our long term health right now in regards to air pollution.

Particulate matter is a major problem in many major cities around the world but whatever you think of the us, we pale in comparison to many large cities in the world. We aren't in the top 10 at all.

If you care about saving actual human lives and not just pretending to care about "the environment" then we need to tackle this problem, which in multi factorial and surely way above most of your heads.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Eriphill

Your main focus seems to be the fairness of the situation (per capita emissions etc). The fact that the Paris Accord is really a wealth redistribution scheme targeting the U.S. first and foremost in favor of developing nations is probably ok with you? Nice in theory but a pretty naive way of thinking in the real world. If the roles were reversed do you really think the communist Chinese government would handicap its own economy in favor of other nations? If you do you're living in a Euro fantasy land.

I think the guy does not see or does not want to see the nuances that we are pointing out. In plus, he seems to be fixated on a main issue only without knowing that even his own point is weak; several approaches used to calculate GHG (extraction, production, consumption) are very inaccurate due to global import-export imbalances for fossil fuels, products/goods. I also see a socialist (communist) point of view in his comments and that was enough fro me; I do believe in fairness but I strongly support individual prosperity based on individual efforts. Save your breath

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Tracus

I think the guy does not see or does not want to see the nuances that we are pointing out. In plus, he seems to be fixated on a main issue only without knowing that even his own point is weak; several approaches used to calculate GHG (extraction, production, consumption) are very inaccurate due to global import-export imbalances for fossil fuels, products/goods. I also see a socialist (communist) point of view in his comments and that was enough fro me; I do believe in fairness but I strongly support individual prosperity based on individual efforts. Save your breath

Too bad you dont see that criticizing another country that didnt agree to the paris climate convention is rather odd if you yourself also didnt agree but at the same time produce 250% more co2 per person...
Of course there are different way's to calculate that number but do you really think it'll tip the balance in that 250% difference?!?
Like I said, you're also that fat kid telling the skinny kid not to eat so much so you can have more...very much afraid that you cant supersize your next meal.

If that makes me a communist. fine. At least it doesnt make me a hypocrite.
Apparently you then also have a communist governor in california..
And Arnold Schwarzenegger is apparently also a communist.
Your words, not mine.