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      12-24-2019, 01:27 PM   #45
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I have some updates since originally posting...

I removed everything for a recent oil change service at the dealership, and set about re-installing it all over the last couple of days, updating a couple of things and fixing things that I would have preferred to have done better the first time around. Not too many photos in this thread I’m afraid, but there are a couple.

First off, I changed the Charge Pipe from FTP to Evolution Racewerks. In keeping with my desire to keep everything looking stock, I went with their black anodized version. The reason for the swap is the location of the meth bungs. In the FTP the upper bung is effectively pointing at the TMAP sensor, which causes it to register artificially low IATs. In practice this usually isn’t a big problem, but it has resulted in an drivetrain error from ‘implausible IAT fluctuation’ once.

Shameless plug - FTP Charge and Boost pipes are for sale in the member classifieds section.

When taking off the meth tubing before service I damaged the carbon fiber braid. It looks pretty but is fragile and so I replaced this with black PET braid, which isn’t as temperature stable, but is more abrasion resistant. Pros and Cons, but I think PET will be better. I needed to re-make the last section of tubing that goes to the jets anyway because of the new bung locations. Not much to look at, but here is the photo of the new tubing:


The biggest change I made was to mount the pump better. As you can see in my previous posts, I’d mounted the pump to the bumper brace with cable ties. This had worked for a few months, but it moved a tiny bit, and I didn’t feel comfortable with that solution, so I made something up with 1” aluminum angle:




The pump fits inside the bumper like a glove, and I’m really happy with how it turned out.
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Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      07-14-2020, 02:33 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
I'm still a few weeks from my parts from Aquamist arriving, but I'm starting to either receive, or get shipping confirmation on some other parts that I've ordered:
  • 1 Gallon empty bottles for mixing water & meth - 2 ordered from Amazon
  • 1/8" split ribbed tubing for under hood cable tidying - 10' Ordered from Amazon
  • EWG Male and Female connectors - 5 sets of each ordered from AliExpress
  • TMAP Male and Female connectors - 2 sets of each ordered from AliExpress
  • Injector Male connectors - 1 pair from a Mini heated windshield washer harness ordered from eBay
  • Injector Female connectors - 5 sets ordered from AliExpress
  • 6mm carbon fibre braid - 4m ordered from eBay
  • 4mm carbon fibre braid - 3m ordered from eBay
  • 6mm PTFE tubing - 10' ordered from Amazon
  • Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Male & Female connectors - Ordered from BMS (as their Flex-fuel harness)
  • Glue filled heat shrink tubing - Ordered from Amazon
I've also started designing / building a more elegant fail-safe, which will reduce boost by biasing the MAP sensor output voltage high after 5PSI of boost. This will require testing to validate, but should not result in a CEL or limp mode like the current suggestion of sending 5v to the EWG sensor wire currently would.

... More to come!
Hi great install guide how did you locate the correct connectors to do the plug and play approach ?
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      07-14-2020, 02:37 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Craigw View Post
Hi great install guide how did you locate the correct connectors to do the plug and play approach ?
Do you mean locate in the engine bay, or locate as in source the parts?
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      07-14-2020, 03:16 PM   #48
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Hi sorry yes meant sourcing the parts
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      07-14-2020, 03:19 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigw View Post
Hi sorry yes meant sourcing the parts
Once I knew the original part numbers, I searched on Alibaba I think. Some of the harnesses I got from BMS and modified them, but I ordered some parts from Alibaba for sure.

I think I have some email confirmations that show the seller and part numbers etc. Let me know if that would be helpful.

The hardest part to find at a sensible cost was the plug for the fuel injector. I was able to get the socket pretty easily (you need both a plug and socket to make a removable tap), but the plug was a real pain to find. The part used is the same as a Mini heated windshield washer jet and a Mercedes door handle. I ended up finding the wiring harness section from a Mini on eBay I think.

I still have a lot of these parts spare, so we could potentially work out a deal if you need them.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      01-20-2021, 08:54 AM   #50
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Hi all, just came across this thread, I love your installation philosophy! keeping everything camouflaged and looking OEM! I am new to BMWs' but not new to WI..., presently I own an M235 and I'm presently planning out my WI system so I though sharing my plans may provide another option. Not intending to criticize negatively, your idea about scaling the sensor signals is impressive but seems a bit too complicated and risky since more components are being introduced which can possibly be future points of failure. For simplicity the safety interlock system I plan to use would consist of a Tial Q BOV loaded with a (safe boost level) 15psi spring (which I presently have laying around) along with a 3 port boost solenoid. The boost reference signal will be plumbed to the top of the diaphragm to keep it closed normally, when in fault mode the controller will vent the signal via the solenoid causing the differential pressure between the boost pressure and (now) atmosphere pressure to open the valve to reduce boost levels to 15psi or lower, of course the spring pressure can be adjusted to achieve the desired response. Turbosmart actually sells controllers to do this! the benefit is that the WI controller can be programmed for that function based on whatever WI parameters are set eliminating the need for anything additional.

Last edited by Dumaurier7; 01-20-2021 at 10:03 AM..
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      01-20-2021, 06:38 PM   #51
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I think it's wild AF that you take all this out for an oil change!
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      01-24-2021, 06:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by M2OG View Post
I think it's wild AF that you take all this out for an oil change!
It's been a long time since I've been on this forum... not bored of the car or anything but just not driving as much since Covid and spending my time doing other things.

I was able to find an understanding SA at my local dealer. I also have a trade account with them for parts now. A dealership is still a dealership, but it helped to know a few people there. Anyway... getting to my point... I didn't remove anything for my most recent service. It was the last free service you get and I just couldn't be bothered with the hassle. No issues this time, they actually asked me about my mods from an enthusiast perspective.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      01-24-2021, 06:56 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumaurier7 View Post
Hi all, just came across this thread, I love your installation philosophy! keeping everything camouflaged and looking OEM! I am new to BMWs' but not new to WI..., presently I own an M235 and I'm presently planning out my WI system so I though sharing my plans may provide another option. Not intending to criticize negatively, your idea about scaling the sensor signals is impressive but seems a bit too complicated and risky since more components are being introduced which can possibly be future points of failure. For simplicity the safety interlock system I plan to use would consist of a Tial Q BOV loaded with a (safe boost level) 15psi spring (which I presently have laying around) along with a 3 port boost solenoid. The boost reference signal will be plumbed to the top of the diaphragm to keep it closed normally, when in fault mode the controller will vent the signal via the solenoid causing the differential pressure between the boost pressure and (now) atmosphere pressure to open the valve to reduce boost levels to 15psi or lower, of course the spring pressure can be adjusted to achieve the desired response. Turbosmart actually sells controllers to do this! the benefit is that the WI controller can be programmed for that function based on whatever WI parameters are set eliminating the need for anything additional.
Very interesting... please post pictures and more details if you get things installed this way.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      01-25-2021, 12:49 AM   #54
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First time seeing this thread and I must say this is absolutely spectacular how you did it! If I were you I would have died working on the wiring because I absolutely hate wiring and wiring diagrams.


Few questions/suggestions:

1) How is your failsafe working?

2) Motiv has recently made their reflex canbus box, speak to them on if you can output aquamist's failsafe to one of the inputs for triggering a map change. I believe bm3 should be supporting this canbus box. If not this reflex box can act as a water meth controller supporting aquamist's FAV as well.

3) You can buy a pump sleeve to fit around the pump body making it more weather resistant. Prometh sells it because all meth kits use the same aquatec pumps, so it should fit no problem. When I ran an externally mounted pump I used that sleeve and it worked well.

4) How much space is behind the bumper bar? I wanted to install an accusump behind there. Also did the position you mounted the pump in affect the bumper bars mounting point?
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      02-07-2021, 10:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
First time seeing this thread and I must say this is absolutely spectacular how you did it! If I were you I would have died working on the wiring because I absolutely hate wiring and wiring diagrams.
Thanks for the nice comment. I can’t say that I enjoy wiring, but I do enjoy the final result, and wouldn’t have done it any other way!

Quote:
Few questions/suggestions:

1) How is your failsafe working?
It’s not!

I removed it for now because I’m only using the Meth to maintain octane and I only drive on the street, no track yet.

Before I removed it, it was working fine before the failsafe triggered, but would still cause a limp mode if it did, and that was the whole intention of creating something that would work better.

Quote:
2) Motiv has recently made their reflex canbus box, speak to them on if you can output aquamist's failsafe to one of the inputs for triggering a map change. I believe bm3 should be supporting this canbus box. If not this reflex box can act as a water meth controller supporting aquamist's FAV as well.
I am really happy with the Aquamist WMI control. As far as I know, it’s still the only system that injects based on injector duty cycle and uses a PWM valve. I’m aware that there may be systems that do one or the other of these things, but I didn’t think there were any that did both.

From a drive-ability point of view, I cannot feel the meth kick in, and the logs basically don’t show its prescience either. It simply looks like I’m running a better grade of fuel than I really am.

Quote:
3) You can buy a pump sleeve to fit around the pump body making it more weather resistant. Prometh sells it because all meth kits use the same aquatec pumps, so it should fit no problem. When I ran an externally mounted pump I used that sleeve and it worked well.
I was worried about this initially, but I’ve taken the bumper off a few times since fitting the pump behind it and there has been no sign of water ingress from the weather.

Having said that, I also only drive in the rain very rarely. I might consider such a sleeve if I lived somewhere other than California and didn’t have my wife’s car to drive when it rains!

Quote:
4) How much space is behind the bumper bar? I wanted to install an accusump behind there. Also did the position you mounted the pump in affect the bumper bars mounting point?
Space behind there is very tight. I didn’t have to modify the bumper bar at all, besides the holes I drilled in it for mounting the pump. The pump is millimeters away from the duct that’s clipped on to the radiator in the wheel well. I’m not sure you could fit anything else in that place, but maybe the other side?

To be honest, as you can see from the dates on the posts, I haven’t done anything to the engine since December 2019. The reason for this was the artificial BMW induced lag between shifts (6MT) began to drive me insane. I’m not in a position to be able to change car at the moment, but I seriously wanted out. The BMW community has been great, and I love the modular way that BMWs are built and the modification potential is endless, but I just couldn’t get past this annoying lag that would rob you of up to 0.5s 0~60.

I’d reached out to many different tuners and gathered loads of evidence, but just been told to ‘Shift Quicker’ (which makes it worse, not better by the way) or ‘What do you expect, it’s a manual’. I did start work with a custom tuner and he made some fantastic progress, and then went silent. He was working for free initially, so I understood if he was busy that I’d fall to the bottom of the pile, but I offered to pay and there was just no response.

Corona virus obviously stopped me traveling as much as I was before, and I ended up working from home and not even commuting. I just wasn’t using the car, I hated the lag between shifts and my interests shifted to other things for most of 2020.

A couple of weeks back however, widetyres reached out to me and let me know that despite all of the times I’d tried to get PTF to address the lag between shifts, he’d been successful and it was now a part of v5.9 OTS map! I won’t deny that I was extremely skeptical having spent 2 years trying to get to the bottom of it before giving up, but it was true... the v5.9 OTS map does eliminate the issue and the drive-ability of the car is now massively improved.

I’m actually at the point now where I have some money that I could dump in to the car again, and I’m thinking of doing the HPFP & Turbo. I like the sound of the TTE560, but the PS2 seems like so much better value for us in the US. I also don’t think I’d want to sacrifice too much spool, and I also don’t want to run so much power that I’m struggling with cooling. 500 who would be lovely for the street, especially if it’s possible with CA pump 91 + WMI. Even better would be a a true Flex-fuel setup that can handle 100% E85 and a map that seamlessly adapts to the amount of E85 in the tank - I’m up for trying new things and doing the installation work, but....

My biggest concern at this point would be tuning... Any new bolt on will only be made the best of if paired with a custom tune. I spent a very long time trying to get PTF to improve the lag between shifts, reached out to two custom tuners to ask them about it and one seemed not to be interested, and the other who went silent after a few iterations. I do believe that a good custom map can be made with the lag removed... but I’m not sure who can do it at this point, besides PTF, and historically they have been very busy to do custom work.
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2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
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      02-07-2021, 03:11 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Thanks for the nice comment. I can’t say that I enjoy wiring, but I do enjoy the final result, and wouldn’t have done it any other way!



It’s not!

I removed it for now because I’m only using the Meth to maintain octane and I only drive on the street, no track yet.

Before I removed it, it was working fine before the failsafe triggered, but would still cause a limp mode if it did, and that was the whole intention of creating something that would work better.



I am really happy with the Aquamist WMI control. As far as I know, it’s still the only system that injects based on injector duty cycle and uses a PWM valve. I’m aware that there may be systems that do one or the other of these things, but I didn’t think there were any that did both.

From a drive-ability point of view, I cannot feel the meth kick in, and the logs basically don’t show its prescience either. It simply looks like I’m running a better grade of fuel than I really am.



I was worried about this initially, but I’ve taken the bumper off a few times since fitting the pump behind it and there has been no sign of water ingress from the weather.

Having said that, I also only drive in the rain very rarely. I might consider such a sleeve if I lived somewhere other than California and didn’t have my wife’s car to drive when it rains!



Space behind there is very tight. I didn’t have to modify the bumper bar at all, besides the holes I drilled in it for mounting the pump. The pump is millimeters away from the duct that’s clipped on to the radiator in the wheel well. I’m not sure you could fit anything else in that place, but maybe the other side?

To be honest, as you can see from the dates on the posts, I haven’t done anything to the engine since December 2019. The reason for this was the artificial BMW induced lag between shifts (6MT) began to drive me insane. I’m not in a position to be able to change car at the moment, but I seriously wanted out. The BMW community has been great, and I love the modular way that BMWs are built and the modification potential is endless, but I just couldn’t get past this annoying lag that would rob you of up to 0.5s 0~60.

I’d reached out to many different tuners and gathered loads of evidence, but just been told to ‘Shift Quicker’ (which makes it worse, not better by the way) or ‘What do you expect, it’s a manual’. I did start work with a custom tuner and he made some fantastic progress, and then went silent. He was working for free initially, so I understood if he was busy that I’d fall to the bottom of the pile, but I offered to pay and there was just no response.

Corona virus obviously stopped me traveling as much as I was before, and I ended up working from home and not even commuting. I just wasn’t using the car, I hated the lag between shifts and my interests shifted to other things for most of 2020.

A couple of weeks back however, widetyres reached out to me and let me know that despite all of the times I’d tried to get PTF to address the lag between shifts, he’d been successful and it was now a part of v5.9 OTS map! I won’t deny that I was extremely skeptical having spent 2 years trying to get to the bottom of it before giving up, but it was true... the v5.9 OTS map does eliminate the issue and the drive-ability of the car is now massively improved.

I’m actually at the point now where I have some money that I could dump in to the car again, and I’m thinking of doing the HPFP & Turbo. I like the sound of the TTE560, but the PS2 seems like so much better value for us in the US. I also don’t think I’d want to sacrifice too much spool, and I also don’t want to run so much power that I’m struggling with cooling. 500 who would be lovely for the street, especially if it’s possible with CA pump 91 + WMI. Even better would be a a true Flex-fuel setup that can handle 100% E85 and a map that seamlessly adapts to the amount of E85 in the tank - I’m up for trying new things and doing the installation work, but....

My biggest concern at this point would be tuning... Any new bolt on will only be made the best of if paired with a custom tune. I spent a very long time trying to get PTF to improve the lag between shifts, reached out to two custom tuners to ask them about it and one seemed not to be interested, and the other who went silent after a few iterations. I do believe that a good custom map can be made with the lag removed... but I’m not sure who can do it at this point, besides PTF, and historically they have been very busy to do custom work.
Hit up cookiesowns at BendCalibration for a custom tune. He's taking care of my stage 3 turbo and stage 3 fueling set-up (We're both California based). We've had flex fuel and rolling anti-lag dialed in for months now. The post-shift lag was solved on the initial base map that he sent me and was further improved not too long after (pre-boosting, tuning for transient response, etc). I was driving on BM3 OTS for awhile with that problem and for it to be solved immediately on the first map was eye-opening.

Most importantly for me though was the lack of penny pinching. Your mileage may vary, but there was excitement every time I installed a new part. The guy likes analyzing the data and deltas that each mod had and calibrated the tune accordingly. It's a partnership in coaxing and teasing out what YOUR particular set-up is capable of and not transactional at all like from what I read of other tuners.

Going back to the post-shift lag stuff, PrinceCity ... No trade secrets involved here... It's a combination of EcuTek as a tuning platform and a knowledgeable tuner that knows how to make use of the available tools - although the other platforms seem to be catching up.
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Last edited by -Eidos; 02-07-2021 at 03:23 PM..
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      02-07-2021, 03:35 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Thanks for the nice comment. I can’t say that I enjoy wiring, but I do enjoy the final result, and wouldn’t have done it any other way!



It’s not!

I removed it for now because I’m only using the Meth to maintain octane and I only drive on the street, no track yet.

Before I removed it, it was working fine before the failsafe triggered, but would still cause a limp mode if it did, and that was the whole intention of creating something that would work better.



I am really happy with the Aquamist WMI control. As far as I know, it’s still the only system that injects based on injector duty cycle and uses a PWM valve. I’m aware that there may be systems that do one or the other of these things, but I didn’t think there were any that did both.

From a drive-ability point of view, I cannot feel the meth kick in, and the logs basically don’t show its prescience either. It simply looks like I’m running a better grade of fuel than I really am.



I was worried about this initially, but I’ve taken the bumper off a few times since fitting the pump behind it and there has been no sign of water ingress from the weather.

Having said that, I also only drive in the rain very rarely. I might consider such a sleeve if I lived somewhere other than California and didn’t have my wife’s car to drive when it rains!



Space behind there is very tight. I didn’t have to modify the bumper bar at all, besides the holes I drilled in it for mounting the pump. The pump is millimeters away from the duct that’s clipped on to the radiator in the wheel well. I’m not sure you could fit anything else in that place, but maybe the other side?

To be honest, as you can see from the dates on the posts, I haven’t done anything to the engine since December 2019. The reason for this was the artificial BMW induced lag between shifts (6MT) began to drive me insane. I’m not in a position to be able to change car at the moment, but I seriously wanted out. The BMW community has been great, and I love the modular way that BMWs are built and the modification potential is endless, but I just couldn’t get past this annoying lag that would rob you of up to 0.5s 0~60.

I’d reached out to many different tuners and gathered loads of evidence, but just been told to ‘Shift Quicker’ (which makes it worse, not better by the way) or ‘What do you expect, it’s a manual’. I did start work with a custom tuner and he made some fantastic progress, and then went silent. He was working for free initially, so I understood if he was busy that I’d fall to the bottom of the pile, but I offered to pay and there was just no response.

Corona virus obviously stopped me traveling as much as I was before, and I ended up working from home and not even commuting. I just wasn’t using the car, I hated the lag between shifts and my interests shifted to other things for most of 2020.

A couple of weeks back however, widetyres reached out to me and let me know that despite all of the times I’d tried to get PTF to address the lag between shifts, he’d been successful and it was now a part of v5.9 OTS map! I won’t deny that I was extremely skeptical having spent 2 years trying to get to the bottom of it before giving up, but it was true... the v5.9 OTS map does eliminate the issue and the drive-ability of the car is now massively improved.

I’m actually at the point now where I have some money that I could dump in to the car again, and I’m thinking of doing the HPFP & Turbo. I like the sound of the TTE560, but the PS2 seems like so much better value for us in the US. I also don’t think I’d want to sacrifice too much spool, and I also don’t want to run so much power that I’m struggling with cooling. 500 who would be lovely for the street, especially if it’s possible with CA pump 91 + WMI. Even better would be a a true Flex-fuel setup that can handle 100% E85 and a map that seamlessly adapts to the amount of E85 in the tank - I’m up for trying new things and doing the installation work, but....

My biggest concern at this point would be tuning... Any new bolt on will only be made the best of if paired with a custom tune. I spent a very long time trying to get PTF to improve the lag between shifts, reached out to two custom tuners to ask them about it and one seemed not to be interested, and the other who went silent after a few iterations. I do believe that a good custom map can be made with the lag removed... but I’m not sure who can do it at this point, besides PTF, and historically they have been very busy to do custom work.
Haha that wiring was amazing! If it was me I would have done it much differently, and likely not to the same level of quality. I'm very intrigued with the way you use the engine bay fuse box for switched power, I would like to do the same thing for my laser jammers.





I recommend you get a failsafe installed, the reason why is because if your car experiences a misfire and you do not have a failsafe your meth kit will keep spraying, and thus you will experience a hyper lean condition which can melt/damage your pistons. MHD has a function that disables the ignition coils upon misfires for PI or meth users, If BM3 has it I suggest you enable it.



In regards to the progressive controller I also really love aquamist and it was the only meth system I would use on my car, however I find that aquamist is starting to lag behind with the new canbus systems. Also, aquamist is not the only progressive meth kit anymore, torqbyte's controller is canbus enabled so you don't have to splice as many wires and it allows for truly progressive meth control by pwming the solenoid. But instead of spraying by a fixed function of rpm, boost, and injector duty cycle you can have 3D custom mapping for spraying. The same goes for the new reflex.

Personally I really like the torqbyte solution because you can control 2 pump and 2 solenoids and have input switches, so for example one solenoid is a FAV style solenoid that controls charge pipe injection, the second solenoid is a more durable long term solenoid that won't burn out if you keep it wide open for long durations - this one will be for intercooler, oil cooler, and radiator sprayer jets and can be triggerd by a flip switch or maybe even canbus functions (I spoke to torqbyte and they said they would be willing to make custom code for it if I could determine ram addresses).


Who were your custom tuners if you don't mind me asking - I am quite curious.

Also I can't really comment on how ptf reduced the lag, but I think they could have done it by manipulating how much boost is retained between shifts and maybe altering torque or load tables.


Overall I hope you can continue your journey of modding with the m2, I would be led to believe that this issue will be worked on more as time progresses and might even be a toggle option at some point (unless it is heavily involved in table changes that vary map to map). But I also heard MHD is working on this and if they implement a fix you can expect MHD authorized tuners/tuners (for N55 that is twisted tuning and pureboost) that help them do OTS maps to be able to tune this way as they are all heavily involved.
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      02-07-2021, 03:41 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by PrinceCity View Post
sounds like quite a perdicamint. if pft want to hold onto the shift delay improvement as sort of a trade secret that gives them an advantage over customers buying other tuning platforms. maybe they'd consider licensing it out to tuners or selling it to individuals. cause yea, any manual tranny tune would be at a signifigant dissadvantage without that fix.
It isn't a trade secret it is just skilled tuning like edios said....

If it was a trade secret I have no doubt the likes of MHD (now with jake on board who was responsible for so much development behind the scenes and flex fuel on the N54), ecutek (with their massive engineering teams), magic motorsports (the ones who developed obd2 flashing tech for these cars that everyone now uses), alientech etc, wouldn't also be able to figure it out.

There is so much going on behind the scenes of tuning platforms now a days, you cannot just count one company out. Sure some will be behind but they will catch up. Remember not every company likes to post about progress, people kept talking down on MHD for not implementing new features - well behind the scenes they have been working hard and now they have anti lag, and flex fuel will be coming soon.
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      02-07-2021, 03:43 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by -Eidos View Post
Hit up cookiesowns at BendCalibration for a custom tune. He's taking care of my stage 3 turbo and stage 3 fueling set-up (We're both California based). We've had flex fuel and rolling anti-lag dialed in for months now. The post-shift lag was solved on the initial base map that he sent me and was further improved not too long after (pre-boosting, tuning for transient response, etc). I was driving on BM3 OTS for awhile with that problem and for it to be solved immediately on the first map was eye-opening.

Most importantly for me though was the lack of penny pinching. Your mileage may vary, but there was excitement every time I installed a new part. The guy likes analyzing the data and deltas that each mod had and calibrated the tune accordingly. It's a partnership in coaxing and teasing out what YOUR particular set-up is capable of and not transactional at all like from what I read of other tuners.

Going back to the post-shift lag stuff, PrinceCity ... No trade secrets involved here... It's a combination of EcuTek as a tuning platform and a knowledgeable tuner that knows how to make use of the available tools - although the other platforms seem to be catching up.
+1

You know what I have heard alot of good things about cookie (and really like him as a forum member as well) and bend as well, and I am always willing to give good tuners a try. I will send him a PM regarding tuning and see where things go with my m2 this year.
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      02-14-2021, 07:04 PM   #60
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Haha that wiring was amazing! If it was me I would have done it much differently, and likely not to the same level of quality. I'm very intrigued with the way you use the engine bay fuse box for switched power, I would like to do the same thing for my laser jammers.
This is really easy once you lift the fuse panel out; access to the other side is through what would be the steering column hole in whichever region LHD / RHD you're not. Crimps required are earlier in this thread I believe.
Quote:
I recommend you get a failsafe installed, the reason why is because if your car experiences a misfire and you do not have a failsafe your meth kit will keep spraying, and thus you will experience a hyper lean condition which can melt/damage your pistons. MHD has a function that disables the ignition coils upon misfires for PI or meth users, If BM3 has it I suggest you enable it.
I don't believe BM3 has such a thing, and I do agree... I should have a fail safe wired up. I'll probably just go with a limp mode rather than something more complex at this point; I don't have the time or energy to work out a better solution at the moment.
Quote:
In regards to the progressive controller I also really love aquamist and it was the only meth system I would use on my car, however I find that aquamist is starting to lag behind with the new canbus systems. Also, aquamist is not the only progressive meth kit anymore, torqbyte's controller is canbus enabled so you don't have to splice as many wires and it allows for truly progressive meth control by pwming the solenoid. But instead of spraying by a fixed function of rpm, boost, and injector duty cycle you can have 3D custom mapping for spraying. The same goes for the new reflex.
I somewhat agree with you. The fundamental difference between Aquamist and the newer controllers is that the Aquamist is all analogue electronics. It's designed by an old guy in the UK, who's heritage is analogue electronics and he just prefers that to digital. It does however have limitations now because it's more difficult to load different maps etc.

Having said that, as I said earlier, it's the only system that uses the injector duty cycle as the input for the meth injection. This makes it progressive at exactly the same rate as the fuel, which is something that the other systems, 3D tables included, aren't able to do. That could be a pro and a con I guess, but I'd have thought that since octane and feeling are the issues that meth injection is trying to fix, aligning the meth injection with that is a more logical solution than a 3D table of rpm, boost, or anything else. If I'm wrong about another controller using injector duty cycle, please do correct me.

I guess it's unfair to say that other systems aren't progressive... many are now, but progressive in response to what I guess is my question.
Quote:
Personally I really like the torqbyte solution because you can control 2 pump and 2 solenoids and have input switches, so for example one solenoid is a FAV style solenoid that controls charge pipe injection, the second solenoid is a more durable long term solenoid that won't burn out if you keep it wide open for long durations - this one will be for intercooler, oil cooler, and radiator sprayer jets and can be triggerd by a flip switch or maybe even canbus functions (I spoke to torqbyte and they said they would be willing to make custom code for it if I could determine ram addresses).
I'm certainly not tied to Aquamist, and would consider moving to a different system if it could be integrated through can bus and there was a way to have the fail-safe in the tune rather than some external electronics / switch. I'd not seen that sort of input become available in BM3 yet, so hadn't really given it much thought.
Quote:
Who were your custom tuners if you don't mind me asking - I am quite curious.
I'll PM you.
Quote:
Also I can't really comment on how ptf reduced the lag, but I think they could have done it by manipulating how much boost is retained between shifts and maybe altering torque or load tables.
I'm pretty sure it's mostly load tables, but I'm not a tuner so what do I know. As I said in my thread about these new maps, the custom tune that I had was holding a higher level of boost between shifts... when it worked... which was about 30% of the time. These new OTS maps are better overall, not just for consistency, but also because the car feels more natural. If a lot of boost is held in the charge pipe / intercooler, when you get back on the gas, there is no build up of boost at all because it's already there. It's certainly faster, but it does feel odd.
Quote:
Overall I hope you can continue your journey of modding with the m2, I would be led to believe that this issue will be worked on more as time progresses and might even be a toggle option at some point (unless it is heavily involved in table changes that vary map to map). But I also heard MHD is working on this and if they implement a fix you can expect MHD authorized tuners/tuners (for N55 that is twisted tuning and pureboost) that help them do OTS maps to be able to tune this way as they are all heavily involved.
What really upset me about my process through this was the lack of interest from the tuners I spoke to. I had some back and forth with PTF as well as a few other tuners and all of them, including PTF just said that it was normal for a 6MT, and they weren't really prepared to look at it. I found one tuner who was prepared to look at it, and he made some great progress on it and then just when silent.

I really feel that the tuners were just focussed on a) DCT, because it is faster, and b) Power rather than drivability. As a result, it took more than just me complaining to get a fix.

This is really what worries me about going for a custom tune. Maybe I'm a fussy bastard and / or difficult to work with (I don't think so), but I just haven't found a custom tuner that wanted to actually work with me on my car as a joint project rather than just taking my money and maybe getting me a good result.

I'm at the point now where I'm considering a turbo upgrade and / or HPFP and would really like a custom tune, especially if we can get flex-fuel and WMI fail safe built in! I'd even move away from BM3 if that made sense, but not if the 6MT lag isn't fixed because that's just fundamental to moving forward with any project at this point.
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      02-14-2021, 08:43 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
This is really easy once you lift the fuse panel out; access to the other side is through what would be the steering column hole in whichever region LHD / RHD you're not. Crimps required are earlier in this thread I believe.

I don't believe BM3 has such a thing, and I do agree... I should have a fail safe wired up. I'll probably just go with a limp mode rather than something more complex at this point; I don't have the time or energy to work out a better solution at the moment.

I somewhat agree with you. The fundamental difference between Aquamist and the newer controllers is that the Aquamist is all analogue electronics. It's designed by an old guy in the UK, who's heritage is analogue electronics and he just prefers that to digital. It does however have limitations now because it's more difficult to load different maps etc.

Having said that, as I said earlier, it's the only system that uses the injector duty cycle as the input for the meth injection. This makes it progressive at exactly the same rate as the fuel, which is something that the other systems, 3D tables included, aren't able to do. That could be a pro and a con I guess, but I'd have thought that since octane and feeling are the issues that meth injection is trying to fix, aligning the meth injection with that is a more logical solution than a 3D table of rpm, boost, or anything else. If I'm wrong about another controller using injector duty cycle, please do correct me.

I guess it's unfair to say that other systems aren't progressive... many are now, but progressive in response to what I guess is my question.

I'm certainly not tied to Aquamist, and would consider moving to a different system if it could be integrated through can bus and there was a way to have the fail-safe in the tune rather than some external electronics / switch. I'd not seen that sort of input become available in BM3 yet, so hadn't really given it much thought.

I'll PM you.

I'm pretty sure it's mostly load tables, but I'm not a tuner so what do I know. As I said in my thread about these new maps, the custom tune that I had was holding a higher level of boost between shifts... when it worked... which was about 30% of the time. These new OTS maps are better overall, not just for consistency, but also because the car feels more natural. If a lot of boost is held in the charge pipe / intercooler, when you get back on the gas, there is no build up of boost at all because it's already there. It's certainly faster, but it does feel odd.

What really upset me about my process through this was the lack of interest from the tuners I spoke to. I had some back and forth with PTF as well as a few other tuners and all of them, including PTF just said that it was normal for a 6MT, and they weren't really prepared to look at it. I found one tuner who was prepared to look at it, and he made some great progress on it and then just when silent.

I really feel that the tuners were just focussed on a) DCT, because it is faster, and b) Power rather than drivability. As a result, it took more than just me complaining to get a fix.

This is really what worries me about going for a custom tune. Maybe I'm a fussy bastard and / or difficult to work with (I don't think so), but I just haven't found a custom tuner that wanted to actually work with me on my car as a joint project rather than just taking my money and maybe getting me a good result.

I'm at the point now where I'm considering a turbo upgrade and / or HPFP and would really like a custom tune, especially if we can get flex-fuel and WMI fail safe built in! I'd even move away from BM3 if that made sense, but not if the 6MT lag isn't fixed because that's just fundamental to moving forward with any project at this point.
Yeah I remember I used to run my jb4 usb cable through that hole.



Yeah I know Richard Lamb designs the aquamist controller, I talked with him alot back when I used to use aquamist. I still really love their stuff and I always advocated for them.

Yeah as of right now I think aquamist is the only controller that does follow injector duty cycle. But with 3D mapping you could always base spraying in a more intricate way, like you can tune your ecu to expect at this certain load point expect more fuel and that is when the meth controller is spraying as well.




Yeah the reflex unit has the more intricate fail safe, it will trigger a map switch to a lower power map that requires less octane so no limp mode involved. I think that is what you are looking for.



Message cookiesowns he is a really patient tuner that will be willing to work with you to fix these lag issues.
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      02-17-2021, 09:09 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
+1

You know what I have heard alot of good things about cookie (and really like him as a forum member as well) and bend as well, and I am always willing to give good tuners a try. I will send him a PM regarding tuning and see where things go with my m2 this year.
I used Bend and can't recommend them highly enough.
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      02-19-2021, 02:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Message cookiesowns he is a really patient tuner that will be willing to work with you to fix these lag issues.

Thanks for the shoutout F87source While on my stock M2 with my custom tunes I never experienced this behavior and on -Eidos 's car I don't see it either ( also drove the car and didn't feel it ), I am now seeing an exaggerated behavior on a car with PS2, because of how slow the PS2 gets back into boost. ( in comparison to the EFR7670 )


There's two main factors that I can see on it... 1) how you get back on power and how quickly you let go of the clutch.. any behavior where it makes the DME feel like clutch is slipping, the DME will cut power.

2) torque ramp in, in relation to 1)

Third factor is simply turbo behavior.. we can play with how the "overrun" blow through, and wastegate behaviors on overrun/shift to help make sure boost is kept in. Which is why if you shift let the car burble and wastegate opens you lose turbine speed.

Either way, this is tunable.... just at the expense of your clutch if you're not careful with shifts.
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      02-19-2021, 05:13 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
Thanks for the shoutout F87source While on my stock M2 with my custom tunes I never experienced this behavior and on -Eidos 's car I don't see it either ( also drove the car and didn't feel it ), I am now seeing an exaggerated behavior on a car with PS2, because of how slow the PS2 gets back into boost. ( in comparison to the EFR7670 )
I'd love to have a chat at some point cookiesowns; you're starting to become a well recognised and recommended tuner. If that's not a new thing, I apologise, but when we'd talked (via forum posts) a few years back, I'd got the impression that you were just dabbling at that point.
Quote:
There's two main factors that I can see on it... 1) how you get back on power and how quickly you let go of the clutch.. any behavior where it makes the DME feel like clutch is slipping, the DME will cut power.

2) torque ramp in, in relation to 1)
I truly mean no offence, but this is exactly the kind of response that I got from PTF and other tuners a few years back. I provided consistent data that shows there is a 2 second delay before the load target is allowed to rise after a shift, resulting in the waste-gate having a delayed close, and therefore a slow build of boost, causing the lag. It's 100% repeatable for me and many others on the stock map and all OTS and custom tunes I've tried until BM3 v5.9.

What makes it very strange is that the timer appears to start from the point where you clutch in for a shift, and lasts for 2 seconds. If you just clutch in and out and don't shift, there is no lag, so it's some sort of conditional timer that starts when you clutch in, but only has an effect if you actually shift. I believe this is one of the reasons it's only happening on the M2 and not M235i, because only the M cars have a shift position sensor; the M235i DME has no knowledge of if a shift has actually occurred or not.

The most annoying thing about the comments that I've received is that the suggestion is most often to 'shift faster', because 'manual cars always loose boost between shifts'. Of course I know that manual cars loose boost between shifts, I'm not looking to prevent that, just have it build at an un-restricted rate by closing the waste-gate properly. Shifting faster actually makes the lag more noticeable because remember the timer is from clutch in; a quick shift will reveal a longer period of lag.

I do think one reason why this hasn't been flagged or noticed more frequently, is that shifting at close to redline masks the issue. The lag is still there, but even with the waste-gate not fully closed, boost is maintained at a reasonable level, masking the delay because the waste-gate doesn't need to close. To reproduce the issue you have to just 'drive' the car normally. Shift between 4K and 5.5K and you'll feel it instantly. Sure, shifting at lower than redline might not be the quickest way to drive, but the drivetrain isn't an on-off switch, and should be able to be modulated as such.
Quote:
Third factor is simply turbo behavior.. we can play with how the "overrun" blow through, and wastegate behaviors on overrun/shift to help make sure boost is kept in. Which is why if you shift let the car burble and wastegate opens you lose turbine speed.
Sure, I understand that if you shift when the turbine speed is slower, or you take longer to shift then that will cause turbo lag. That is not what we're seeing that's been fixed with v5.9. The problem is that the waste-gate doesn't close. I admit that it does feel a little like turbo lag, and that's probably another reason why it hasn't been picked up on as often, but it's not turbo lag because it's a synthetic lag, created by the tune.
Quote:
Either way, this is tunable.... just at the expense of your clutch if you're not careful with shifts.
Having said all of that, I'd still be interested in chatting with you if you have a chance. As I've said, I'm at the point of considering HPFP and / or turbo for my car, and would consider this a process potentially working together with a tuner on software as I swap out hardware. I'm interested in a custom tune if it can be accomplished with the BM3 OTS v5.9 fix (or similar).
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      02-19-2021, 11:49 PM   #65
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I'd love to have a chat at some point cookiesowns; you're starting to become a well recognised and recommended tuner. If that's not a new thing, I apologise, but when we'd talked (via forum posts) a few years back, I'd got the impression that you were just dabbling at that point.

I truly mean no offence, but this is exactly the kind of response that I got from PTF and other tuners a few years back. I provided consistent data that shows there is a 2 second delay before the load target is allowed to rise after a shift, resulting in the waste-gate having a delayed close, and therefore a slow build of boost, causing the lag. It's 100% repeatable for me and many others on the stock map and all OTS and custom tunes I've tried until BM3 v5.9.

What makes it very strange is that the timer appears to start from the point where you clutch in for a shift, and lasts for 2 seconds. If you just clutch in and out and don't shift, there is no lag, so it's some sort of conditional timer that starts when you clutch in, but only has an effect if you actually shift. I believe this is one of the reasons it's only happening on the M2 and not M235i, because only the M cars have a shift position sensor; the M235i DME has no knowledge of if a shift has actually occurred or not.

The most annoying thing about the comments that I've received is that the suggestion is most often to 'shift faster', because 'manual cars always loose boost between shifts'. Of course I know that manual cars loose boost between shifts, I'm not looking to prevent that, just have it build at an un-restricted rate by closing the waste-gate properly. Shifting faster actually makes the lag more noticeable because remember the timer is from clutch in; a quick shift will reveal a longer period of lag.

I do think one reason why this hasn't been flagged or noticed more frequently, is that shifting at close to redline masks the issue. The lag is still there, but even with the waste-gate not fully closed, boost is maintained at a reasonable level, masking the delay because the waste-gate doesn't need to close. To reproduce the issue you have to just 'drive' the car normally. Shift between 4K and 5.5K and you'll feel it instantly. Sure, shifting at lower than redline might not be the quickest way to drive, but the drivetrain isn't an on-off switch, and should be able to be modulated as such.

Sure, I understand that if you shift when the turbine speed is slower, or you take longer to shift then that will cause turbo lag. That is not what we're seeing that's been fixed with v5.9. The problem is that the waste-gate doesn't close. I admit that it does feel a little like turbo lag, and that's probably another reason why it hasn't been picked up on as often, but it's not turbo lag because it's a synthetic lag, created by the tune.

Having said all of that, I'd still be interested in chatting with you if you have a chance. As I've said, I'm at the point of considering HPFP and / or turbo for my car, and would consider this a process potentially working together with a tuner on software as I swap out hardware. I'm interested in a custom tune if it can be accomplished with the BM3 OTS v5.9 fix (or similar).
Can you send me a few logs demonstrating this? This is not what I'm seeing in my logs, stock tune isn't that helpful, because of the 35nm overboost offset.

Quote:
Sure, I understand that if you shift when the turbine speed is slower, or you take longer to shift then that will cause turbo lag. That is not what we're seeing that's been fixed with v5.9. The problem is that the waste-gate doesn't close. I admit that it does feel a little like turbo lag, and that's probably another reason why it hasn't been picked up on as often, but it's not turbo lag because it's a synthetic lag, created by the tune.
No, that's not what I'm saying there, what I'm saying is, when burbles happen, the wastegate opens, thus reducing turbine speed and causing additional delay when wastegate opens. Remember though, the DME is smart and knows the flow fractions between turbine and wastegate, so sometimes having some gasses bypass the turbine will help improve flow throughout the engine due to the restrictive the turbine housing is. You can't simply just look at wastegate closing or opening, what's important is the actual torque/load targets as you get back on throttle, and have to make sure this is done with minimal clutch slip, or by disabling clutch slip prevents to see if this is indeed the problem.

Keeping the gate closed is one method, but I don't think that's the main problem.

As far as OTS goes, are you saying "this" timer was since disabled?
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      08-08-2021, 08:44 PM   #66
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