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      01-10-2020, 05:25 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustChris View Post
I'm as much as BMW man as all of us but statements like the above look a little bizarre when the M2 with M engine...is beaten by the Supra with it's pathetic non M engine

Again I know there's more to an engine than a few 0-60 pulls but still. The M engine was defeated.
What's more bizarre is you judge a car by its 0-60 pull...

Please show me when the M2C was beaten by the Supra? Please don't quote on those time attacks from track wannabes.

The M2C has traction issue off the line because it is under-tyred.

Drive the M2C and then the Supra and you know how much more enjoyable the M2C is. The S55 revs faster and harder to redline, not to mention the redline is 7500 instead of 7000 on the B58

Dig into some of the reviews here

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/rev...upra-vs-bmw-m2

https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/...parison-review

The whole comparison thing is moot to me anyway from a buyer's perspective since the Supra doesn't even offer a manual gearbox.

Last edited by Karmic Man; 01-10-2020 at 05:38 AM..
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      01-10-2020, 07:24 AM   #112
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      01-10-2020, 09:07 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
What's more bizarre is you judge a car by its 0-60 pull...
Exactly. If someone wants the best 0-60 times, go buy a numb AWD car and initiate launch control at every red light possible. Or go buy a used Hellcat and throw a radial on it... Hell, for what I paid for the M2, I could have bought a used GTR. Which will do better 0-60? Gtr duh. Now which is more fun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Drive the M2C and then the Supra and you know how much more enjoyable the M2C is. The S55 revs faster and harder to redline, not to mention the redline is 7500 instead of 7000 on the B58.
The S55 is absolutely fantastic. Funny how no one cared about the B58 until it was in the nEw SuPrA!!1! Even with the detune, the S55 pulls hard almost all the way to redline. I've ridden in my buddies Supra, and while it pulls, it's not the same at all. I think it's mostly the short gearing the ZF8 that makes if feel much faster than it actually is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The whole comparison thing is moot to me anyway from a buyer's perspective since the Supra doesn't even offer a manual gearbox.
Or 4 seats, or a very usable trunk, or an attractive exterior...


I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. If someone is buying a car solely based off lap times, they're buying it for entirely the wrong reasons... It's largely an emotional decision.

If you want a killer track car, go build a kit, or buy an Ariel, or mod a Miata... Not to mention that 99% of people spewing lap times are the same kids that think playing Forza makes them a good driver in real life. The comments sections on those articles and subsequent videos are FULL of people who have 0 intention of buying the car anyways. It's all moot.
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      01-10-2020, 03:21 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
What's more bizarre is you judge a car by its 0-60 pull...
Exactly. If someone wants the best 0-60 times, go buy a numb AWD car and initiate launch control at every red light possible. Or go buy a used Hellcat and throw a radial on it... Hell, for what I paid for the M2, I could have bought a used GTR. Which will do better 0-60? Gtr duh. Now which is more fun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Drive the M2C and then the Supra and you know how much more enjoyable the M2C is. The S55 revs faster and harder to redline, not to mention the redline is 7500 instead of 7000 on the B58.
The S55 is absolutely fantastic. Funny how no one cared about the B58 until it was in the nEw SuPrA!!1! Even with the detune, the S55 pulls hard almost all the way to redline. I've ridden in my buddies Supra, and while it pulls, it's not the same at all. I think it's mostly the short gearing the ZF8 that makes if feel much faster than it actually is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The whole comparison thing is moot to me anyway from a buyer's perspective since the Supra doesn't even offer a manual gearbox.
Or 4 seats, or a very usable trunk, or an attractive exterior...


I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. If someone is buying a car solely based off lap times, they're buying it for entirely the wrong reasons... It's largely an emotional decision.

If you want a killer track car, go build a kit, or buy an Ariel, or mod a Miata... Not to mention that 99% of people spewing lap times are the same kids that think playing Forza makes them a good driver in real life. The comments sections on those articles and subsequent videos are FULL of people who have 0 intention of buying the car anyways. It's all moot.
I agree with your overall point, but you can't mock people for using lap times and then throw in comparisons like 4 seats and a larger trunk... these are sports cars not minivans for soccer moms. The only things we should be comparing are aesthetics and performance.

I also thought the Supra looked ugly until I saw it in person - it actually looks quite cool. However the S55 wins hands down and I think that and the other M goodies put the M2 on top imo. I wish we could've seen an M division modified Supra to showcase its true potential, as the chassis is almost certainly a better base than a standard 2 series.
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      01-10-2020, 04:39 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newcar55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
What's more bizarre is you judge a car by its 0-60 pull...
Exactly. If someone wants the best 0-60 times, go buy a numb AWD car and initiate launch control at every red light possible. Or go buy a used Hellcat and throw a radial on it... Hell, for what I paid for the M2, I could have bought a used GTR. Which will do better 0-60? Gtr duh. Now which is more fun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Drive the M2C and then the Supra and you know how much more enjoyable the M2C is. The S55 revs faster and harder to redline, not to mention the redline is 7500 instead of 7000 on the B58.
The S55 is absolutely fantastic. Funny how no one cared about the B58 until it was in the nEw SuPrA!!1! Even with the detune, the S55 pulls hard almost all the way to redline. I've ridden in my buddies Supra, and while it pulls, it's not the same at all. I think it's mostly the short gearing the ZF8 that makes if feel much faster than it actually is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The whole comparison thing is moot to me anyway from a buyer's perspective since the Supra doesn't even offer a manual gearbox.
Or 4 seats, or a very usable trunk, or an attractive exterior...


I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. If someone is buying a car solely based off lap times, they're buying it for entirely the wrong reasons... It's largely an emotional decision.

If you want a killer track car, go build a kit, or buy an Ariel, or mod a Miata... Not to mention that 99% of people spewing lap times are the same kids that think playing Forza makes them a good driver in real life. The comments sections on those articles and subsequent videos are FULL of people who have 0 intention of buying the car anyways. It's all moot.
I agree with your overall point, but you can't mock people for using lap times and then throw in comparisons like 4 seats and a larger trunk... these are sports cars not minivans for soccer moms. The only things we should be comparing are aesthetics and performance.

I also thought the Supra looked ugly until I saw it in person - it actually looks quite cool. However the S55 wins hands down and I think that and the other M goodies put the M2 on top imo. I wish we could've seen an M division modified Supra to showcase its true potential, as the chassis is almost certainly a better base than a standard 2 series.
Spoken like someone who doesn't need a trunk or a backseat in a daily driver.
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      01-10-2020, 05:59 PM   #116
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M2c versus (new) Toyota Supra

Okay, but in this class of cars wouldn't you say that the size of the trunk is just as far down the checklist as 0-60 lap times?

And for what it's worth, the Supra's trunk isn't that bad.
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      01-10-2020, 06:45 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newcar55 View Post
Okay, but in this class of cars wouldn't you say that the size of the trunk is just as far down the checklist as 0-60 lap times?

And for what it's worth, the Supra's trunk isn't that bad.
What class? There is no class comparison here except if you look at through lens - price proximity. In all other aspects they are completely different categories of car.
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      01-10-2020, 08:12 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcar55 View Post
Okay, but in this class of cars wouldn't you say that the size of the trunk is just as far down the checklist as 0-60 lap times?

And for what it's worth, the Supra's trunk isn't that bad.
What class? There is no class comparison here except if you look at through lens - price proximity. In all other aspects they are completely different categories of car.
C'mon man, don't be purposely obtuse. There are tons of Youtube videos and articles comparing the Supra and the M2C. This very thread is a comparison between these two cars. They are 100% in the same class and yes, price does play a role.
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      01-10-2020, 09:45 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newcar55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcar55 View Post
Okay, but in this class of cars wouldn't you say that the size of the trunk is just as far down the checklist as 0-60 lap times?

And for what it's worth, the Supra's trunk isn't that bad.
What class? There is no class comparison here except if you look at through lens - price proximity. In all other aspects they are completely different categories of car.
C'mon man, don't be purposely obtuse. There are tons of Youtube videos and articles comparing the Supra and the M2C. This very thread is a comparison between these two cars. They are 100% in the same class and yes, price does play a role.
Sigh. Okay man, you do you. But just because some influencer generation reviewers want to compare these cars doesn't mean they are in the same class. In fact, if you go read actual reviews by established journos with actual car knowledge, you'll find that the M2C pulls ahead for all of them.
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      01-12-2020, 02:06 PM   #120
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Supra vs M2C - elephant in the room

The elephant in the room is the suspension. Both have great BMW engines and clearly the Supra pulls hard, it even sets nearly identical laptimes from what I've seen.
The main difference, engine aside, that I can tell is the braking, DCT, and suspension. But, I havent seen a single professional review discuss what advantage the M2C has by using the M4's much more sophisticated suspension over the Supra's rather conventional strut setup.

The Supra has been accused in some articles of feeling aloof, numb, a bit disconnected despite the numbers it puts up. The M2C has been called the most communicative BMW in years despite still slightly numb steering (a comment I disagree with). I'd love to see more professional side-by-side reviews.

The questions I have:
Do the massive brakes on the M2C give it the edge on tracks on mountain downhills where brake fade becomes a real issue?
Does the suspension & DCT truly give the M2C any edge?
In high-g corners, does the Supra experience oil starvation where the track oriented S58 M2C would not?
Is the new chassis (Supra/Z4) really that much stiffer (verifiably) than an M2's with its added bracing?
And lastly, whats to stop Toyota from soon offering a $70k Supra with the new M motor, upgraded brakes, transmission and suspension from upcoming M4? I certainly hope they do.
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      02-06-2020, 04:47 PM   #121
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I think this is an interesting discussion. Someone brought up that lap times are not a good way to dictate whether or not you are going to buy this car...and i agree...about halfway.

Currently im waiting for my M2C. However i also have a fully track specced S2000 that i take to the track/autocross monthly.

I was actually looking between the Supra and the M2C before ultimately deciding on the M2C. I wont lie and say the majority of the winning vote was due to a lot of the more practical aspects of the M2C. 4 seats, more trunk space (you can actually fit a full set of wheels in the trunk/folded down back) plus the fact it still comes in a manual.

However after that i did look at laptimes, how people felt when driving at the limit, how the brakes felt, what the suspension was like, issues with over heating or problems with the turbo over extended laps. And honestly the cars were quite close. Having test driven a M240i i got a nice feel of the B58 engine. It impressed me that the car actually held up to the M2C in terms of performance on the track. And when i mean held up to, i'm talking about where i would be if i drove these two cars back to back. I'm not a pro driver, not by a long shot. The best i'd be able to muscle out of these cars is about 80-90% of what they can give so for me, the two cars have very similar performance numbers if i take my novice driving ability into account.

Due to that, the Supra actually almost won the vote due to it being about 10k cheaper and basically as good performance. However at the end of the day i realized that i really wanted a MT for when i autocross and being able to carry a set of track wheels in the car to the track was just so much more appealing.

Overall though, this car still will be my daily driver. The car that i still actually worry about track times is my S2000. As i bought it specifically for that. So in a sense i do agree that looking at lap times in order to determine which car to buy does seem pretty ridiculous especially when the car may only see the track minimally or not at all.
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      02-06-2020, 07:04 PM   #122
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I'd pick the M2C any day, after driving the Supra last fall. Far more "practical", yet feels more raw in comparison. The Supra is quick and feels marginally faster from a dig, but the M2C is sharp and makes up for everything just from the first turn in and hard braking section.

It's all each drivers perspective they take home at the end of the day. For me, coming from a track focused F22, the M2C feels "soft" in it's stock clothing, but I don't let that discount the fact the BMW track day experience I had in the M2C showed me how well they bridged the gap between a base M2, and a better prepared "track" example for someone who does not want to modify their stock car for track duty (less tires/pads&fluid). The M2 should have been the M2C to begin with, imo

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