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      12-18-2019, 04:46 PM   #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
AS is street oriented. In all honestly BMW has some of most archaic adaptive dampers in the business. Magnetic dampers are light years better.
Sort of off topic, but aren't the mag-rides horrible for longevity, as in they don't last nearly as long as their normal valved counterparts? And aren't the magnetic dampers extremely expensive to replace, when they inevitably go bad?
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      12-18-2019, 04:51 PM   #926
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Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Close enough
Not really (other than both being made by KW)

The differences are substantial both in terms of performance and even more so in price

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Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Please list all BMW's made with active suspension that handle better than a $2500 set of M Performance coilovers
A BMW with Tractive adaptive coilovers
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      12-18-2019, 05:06 PM   #927
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Originally Posted by VTBoss302 View Post
Not really (other than both being made by KW)

The differences are substantial both in terms of performance and even more so in price
Yup, more than double the price of Mperf coilovers for the M2. M4 GTS suspension is essentially KW Clubsport 3-way coilovers with BMW GTS specific specs.
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      12-18-2019, 05:08 PM   #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
AS is street oriented. In all honestly BMW has some of most archaic adaptive dampers in the business. Magnetic dampers are light years better.
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I don't really have a stake in this argument...but I have always wondered if the active suspension in my F80 is broken. There's no appreciable difference in any of the modes, especially relative to the changes you get when changing the steering or throttle selections.
+1
The Adaptive Suspension or EDC that BMW uses might be based on older and less effective system than the competition currently does but they been successfully implementing it for many years.

I have to believe if it wasn't efficient or didn't meet their high standards, BMW/GmBH engineers would of discontinued offering it a long time ago.

Instead, they ramped up its usage and made it standard in all future G Series M3/M4.


So it must be doing something right, they just enjoy wasting unnecessary resources or the few random members here with their magic 'coilovers' are more knowledgeable than the seasoned engineers that design these cars for a living.

Here's a video from 1997 utilizing the same system, so if it's not broken, why try to fix it.

Forward to 13:00



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      12-18-2019, 05:34 PM   #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
THIS! CS = Coupe Sport.
AFAIK, on the M2 CS, "CS" stands for "Clubsport" or "Club Sport".
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
AFAIK:
  • "CS" stands for "Club Sport" or "Clubsport"
  • "CS" does neither stand for "Coupé Sport" nor for "Competition Sport" (though that moniker was used back in 2016 for 60 special M4 cars sold on the Spanish market: see here and here);
  • "CSL" stands for "Coupé Sport Leichtbau" ("Coupé Sport Lightweight (construction)").
See more in general the dedicated thread by moderator Law here ("Origins of BMW CS & CSL Models").

However, some press mentions that "CS" in "M2 CS" stands for "Competition Sport".

BMW launch materials expressly refer to "Clubsport" (see here):
This immensely capable car also serves as a basis for the BMW M2 CS Racing model, BMW M Motorsport’s new entry point to amateur racing and the new Clubsport segment from the 2020 season.
“The joint development of the BMW M2 CS and BMW M2 CS Racing underscores the close links between BMW Motorsport and BMW M GmbH,” explains Markus Flasch, Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW M GmbH. “Our skillsets converge at the midway point between high-performance cars for the road and all-out racing machines – i.e. in the expanding Clubsport segment. We’re covering this niche with the Clubsport variant of the BMW M2 CS Racing and will be working in a similar direction with future special-edition models from BMW M.”
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      12-18-2019, 05:59 PM   #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
The M2CS is a bog standard M2C with some carbon fiber accessories tacked on. Oooooo.
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Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Ricing out a M2C, making it heavier, and installing a worse suspension won't make it anything but fail status.
This is the first CS to be a downgrade from the C.
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Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Let's go down the list since the people in the back can't hear:
The M2CS is heavier than the M2C. Downgrade.
The M2CS has adaptive suspension. Downgrade.
The M2CS has a ton of carbon fiber, still heavier than M2C. Rice.
The M2CS has exactly the same brakes just carbon rotors. Downgrade, steel rotors stop better.
The M2CS has the same engine just different tune. An upgrade off the lot and the only factor making the M2CS faster off the showroom floor, but any C owner can flash their car to 500whp so...
So what makes the CS so much better? Because with what we know about it other than a hotter tune, it's worse.
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Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
I'm just going to ignore the CS exists, it's an embarrassment. 25k over a M2C for a heavier car with ricer mods.
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Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
once and a while someone knowledgeable new comes in who reads nothing but utter nonsense and misinformation and has to set the record straight. In the end, forums are just circlejerks of misinformation and censorship to boast sales to paid sponsors. I won’t be here long, this group has nothing to offer me in terms of furthering my education unless I wanna know about blowmotor3 tune or some Chinese stick on ricer carbon fiber spoiler that will fly off or fade within a year.
Are you done yet ?

"Life is like that...sometimes you have to peel off the bitterness in order to get to the part that is sweet." (Ken Poirot)
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      12-18-2019, 06:15 PM   #931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Are you done yet ?

"Life is like that...sometimes you have to peel off the bitterness in order to get to the part that is sweet." (Ken Poirot)
This guy is getting to be quite the poster...
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      12-18-2019, 07:04 PM   #932
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Are you done yet ?

"Life is like that...sometimes you have to peel off the bitterness in order to get to the part that is sweet." (Ken Poirot)
Or, "it's like an onion. The more layers you peel, the more it stinks."

I think dude has pulled off a hundred layers thus far on his interpretation the CS.
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      12-18-2019, 07:10 PM   #933
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Wow some heated discussions that have escalated the last 12-24 hours...

So a few members are adamant on saying the CS is not enough of an upgrade and a complete waste of money. Ok, really depends how you define an upgrade.

As stated earlier, up to a certain point, I don't see the huge performance benefit. Especially when I don't intend to track the vehicle. However, I do care about the "specialness" of the vehicle, by adding enhanced quality materials into an otherwise "regular" vehicle.

For me, I love the addition of the adaptive suspension, the merino seats are superb, the carbon bits add differentiation and enhances the overall look of the car. As Poochie has mentioned, if they roll this out to the last gen M2C, I would be all over it. But unfortunately, it is only available at the M2CS level. And for that, I appreciate BMW for adding the parts bin of other models into the M2.

Oh and I need a "usable" backseat and I would prefer to buy new since I plan to keep this vehicle for awhile. I like the sentimental value of bonding with the car since the beginning
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      12-18-2019, 07:15 PM   #934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Wow some heated discussions that have escalated the last 12-24 hours...

So a few members are adamant on saying the CS is not enough of an upgrade and a complete waste of money. Ok, really depends how you define an upgrade.

As stated earlier, up to a certain point, I don't see the huge performance benefit. Especially when I don't intend to track the vehicle. However, I do care about the "specialness" of the vehicle, by adding enhanced quality materials into an otherwise "regular" vehicle.
It's really only one dude, he posted at least 40 times today.

I really need to experience this Merino leather. I quite like the Dakato leather in my Comp though. On second though, maybe I shouldn't go feel it, because then if I like it, I'm going to want it...
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      12-18-2019, 07:21 PM   #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Wow some heated discussions that have escalated the last 12-24 hours...

So a few members are adamant on saying the CS is not enough of an upgrade and a complete waste of money. Ok, really depends how you define an upgrade.

As stated earlier, up to a certain point, I don't see the huge performance benefit. Especially when I don't intend to track the vehicle. However, I do care about the "specialness" of the vehicle, by adding enhanced quality materials into an otherwise "regular" vehicle.
It's really only one dude, he posted at least 40 times today.

I really need to experience this Merino leather. I quite like the Dakato leather in my Comp though. On second though, maybe I shouldn't go feel it, because then if I like it, I'm going to want it...
Haha yes, but I didn't want to single someone out.

So I bought the G05 X5 back in April and the merino leather seats are simply amazing. It should be the standard in terms of seat quality. Nice and buttery smooth and soft...yeah, you get how much I love it.

Previous to the X5, I had a 425i with Dakota. And honestly, it felt very hard and I'm not a fan of the pebble texture vs. the smoothness of the merino.

And at this price point, glad BMW gave us the Merino.

For me personally, I'm looking for a product that delivers both technically and aesthetically. I don't think it's fair for the consumer to choose one way or another, at this price point. We're not buying a Civic SI or Focus RS.
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      12-18-2019, 07:23 PM   #936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitekidM2C View Post
This guy is getting to be quite the poster...
And pathetically sad.
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      12-18-2019, 07:23 PM   #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
So I bought the G05 X5 back in April and the merino leather seats are simply amazing. It should be the standard in terms of seat quality. Nice and buttery smooth and soft...yeah, you get how much I love it.

Previous to the X5, I had a 425i with Dakota. And honestly, it felt very hard and I'm not a fan of the pebble texture vs. the smoothness of the merino.
When I bought the M, I got picked up from the airport by the salesman in a newer X5. Do those have Merino? As for the Dakota, I come from a 13 year old Infiniti, which has horrible leather.
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      12-18-2019, 07:33 PM   #938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
So I bought the G05 X5 back in April and the merino leather seats are simply amazing. It should be the standard in terms of seat quality. Nice and buttery smooth and soft...yeah, you get how much I love it.

Previous to the X5, I had a 425i with Dakota. And honestly, it felt very hard and I'm not a fan of the pebble texture vs. the smoothness of the merino.
When I bought the M, I got picked up from the airport by the salesman in a newer X5. Do those have Merino? As for the Dakota, I come from a 13 year old Infiniti, which has horrible leather.
The X5 comes with Vernasca leather as standard (same you find in the new 3 series and Z4). The X5 extended leather option features Merino leather.

And I get where you're coming from, the Dakota leather is still decent compared to some other leathers you find in other brands. But as a top tier luxury product, I guess I expected more at a certain price point.

Hell, I'm still on the fence of whether to pull the trigger on this car, but my struggle is not necessary if M2CS is worth it at $83K. It's whether I want to spend my budget on a car plus something else or all on a car. Lol. Worst case, I will pick up the last gen M2C w/ Dakota and call it a day.
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      12-18-2019, 07:38 PM   #939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Hell, I'm still on the fence of whether to pull the trigger on this car, but my struggle is not necessary if M2CS is worth it at $83K. It's whether I want to spend my budget on a car plus something else or all on a car. Lol. Worst case, I will pick up the last gen M2C w/ Dakota and call it a day.
Oof, tough choice. I wish I would've waited on buying my Comp for ONE reason. I wanted to do ED, but didn't have the disposable money for an unplanned trip. I vote M2C, do ED, and when you get back, do coilovers, wheels, exhaust, some aero bits, and call it a day. Pocket the little that is left over, done.
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      12-18-2019, 07:40 PM   #940
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This the different description of BMW leathers..

Apparently, Marino leather is the top-tier offering, which I believe is standard in the CS.
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      12-18-2019, 07:40 PM   #941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The Adaptive Suspension or EDC that BMW uses might be based on older and less effective system than the competition currently does but they been successfully implementing it for many years.

I have to believe if it wasn't efficient or didn't meet their high standards, BMW/GmBH engineers would of discontinued offering it a long time ago.

Instead, they ramped up its usage and made it standard in all future G Series M3/M4.


So it must be doing something right, they just enjoy wasting unnecessary resources or the few random members here with their magic 'coilovers' are more knowledgeable than the seasoned engineers that design these cars for a living.

Here's a video from 1997 utilizing the same system, so if it's not broken, why try to fix it.

Forward to 13:00



The benefits of coilcovers is adjustability that's why it's on the E92 GTS and the F80 GTS and it's also on the CS Racing.

Having ADs on the CS was probably not be the choice of engineers but from marketing. The engineers just have to do what they can with the directive given.

One cannot adjust ride height and corner balance with ADs and that is why many saw it as a downgrade on the CS which should be more track focus.

Added weight and cost is also a big factor.

A set of dampers would last around 30000 km if seen track regularly. That set of ADs on the CS won't last forever and please go and check how much is the listed price from your local dealers. Easily twice the amount of a set of good coilovers.

With coilovers one can rebuild which would lower the cost of replacement even further.

If you still have doubts about coilovers, go to your local racetrack and have a look at some of the fastest M3/M4 and see how many are on stock ADs.
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      12-18-2019, 07:51 PM   #942
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
If you're going to spend the money on a pcar, then at least get a fun color. It's interesting that the $25k price per performance difference doesn't apply when going to a 911. Is the performance gain of 911 worth another 20k ov the CS? Just mod your M2cs or wait to buy a used Cs after the massive depreciation.
This is my situation as well. The M2 CS would be around $89k with DCT and Sport Cup 2 tires. I would skip the CCBS and gold wheels.

I built a 911 Carrera S at around $137k so that is around $50k higher than a M2 CS. That additional $50k is too rich for my budget at this time so M2 CS it is. I don't want to do base 911 Carrera and not interested in the used market. At least the M2 CS will be scarce unlike 911 Carrera S or base.

Last edited by Hegge; 12-18-2019 at 07:57 PM..
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      12-18-2019, 07:58 PM   #943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Hell, I'm still on the fence of whether to pull the trigger on this car, but my struggle is not necessary if M2CS is worth it at $83K. It's whether I want to spend my budget on a car plus something else or all on a car. Lol. Worst case, I will pick up the last gen M2C w/ Dakota and call it a day.
Oof, tough choice. I wish I would've waited on buying my Comp for ONE reason. I wanted to do ED, but didn't have the disposable money for an unplanned trip. I vote M2C, do ED, and when you get back, do coilovers, wheels, exhaust, some aero bits, and call it a day. Pocket the little that is left over, done.
Good advice, but you have to understand I most certainly do not have the skill set to do all these mods. Better off just getting it from the factory lol.

And regarding my budget, I'm still spending the total msrp of the CS whether it's just the CS or the C + my watch hobby...this is another can of worms and if you know anything about the watch hobby, then you know what I'm talking about haha. Gotta figure out if I want to fund an AP and Patek here 😂
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      12-18-2019, 08:29 PM   #944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
In all honestly BMW has some of most archaic adaptive dampers in the business.
Porsche, for instance, uses the same damper technology as BMW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
Magnetic dampers are light years better.
I disagree that magnetorheological dampers are that superior to mechanically variable dampers. We have them on our RS3 and they have their weaknesses too. Both technologies have their pros and cons.
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      12-18-2019, 08:49 PM   #945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
AS is street oriented. In all honestly BMW has some of most archaic adaptive dampers in the business. Magnetic dampers are light years better.
Sort of off topic, but aren't the mag-rides horrible for longevity, as in they don't last nearly as long as their normal valved counterparts? And aren't the magnetic dampers extremely expensive to replace, when they inevitably go bad?
Pretty much what I've heard about the longevity of adaptive suspension. The static suspension on the M2C was a positive selling point for me over a few of the other cars I cross-shopped.

It's neat tech; until it breaks.
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      12-18-2019, 08:53 PM   #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The benefits of coilcovers is adjustability that's why it's on the E92 GTS and the F80 GTS and it's also on the CS Racing.

Having ADs on the CS was probably not be the choice of engineers but from marketing. The engineers just have to do what they can with the directive given.

One cannot adjust ride height and corner balance with ADs and that is why many saw it as a downgrade on the CS which should be more track focus.

Added weight and cost is also a big factor.

A set of dampers would last around 30000 km if seen track regularly. That set of ADs on the CS won't last forever and please go and check how much is the listed price from your local dealers. Easily twice the amount of a set of good coilovers.

With coilovers one can rebuild which would lower the cost of replacement even further.

If you still have doubts about coilovers, go to your local racetrack and have a look at some of the fastest M3/M4 and see how many are on stock ADs.
I don't see these things as black or white, but rather a progressive scale of greys.

The CS series are not intended as all out track cars. They are intended to be dual use cars: practical daily drivers and track toys, with slightly more bias towards track performance. The GTS (CSL in the future) series are intended primarily as track toys that can be driven to and from the track.

A true coil-over suspension will indeed offer better track performance due to greater adjustability of various rebound and compression parameters, but at the expense of greater complexity. Not everyone is able to extract the best out of manually adjustable dampers. I have the MP-HAS on my M4cs, so I would argue that it is possible to fine tune ride height and corner balancing with AD. I actually tuned the handling balance of my car by playing with the front and rear ride heights. Further, coil-overs also come at the expense of durability. Based on personal experience and shared experiences from track buddies, coil-over dampers require an overhaul after 2-3 seasons to remain at their best. The adaptive dampers on the ///Ms that I have owned still performed flawlessly after 70,000~90,000 km of ownership, which included well over 100 track day on each car.

From a track performance standpoint, coil-overs are the superior option, followed by the adaptive dampers and then followed by the static dampers. Fitting the M2cs with adaptive dampers is the right "engineering choice" given the M2cs' intended mission.
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