[photorph]

This whole situation is a mess, my car is at the shop with the EL midpipe getting installed tomorrow.

Mike @ XPH do I stop them and just ask for a refund from you? Do we have to pay shipping fees or restocking fees if it's an unopened box?

I also got the remus race to go along with it, and I can't use that with the AA single because it would be too loud. So I would need to return the remus race also and get it swapped out with the remus sport...which is an issue because the box that the remus race came in was pretty much destroyed.

[ONLYACTIVE]

Originally Posted by No_curebimmer

Hi Mike, unfortunately, since ONLYACTIVE isn't too active on these forums, you have become the de-facto messenger. Since you're in contact with them, it might do some great Customer Service PSA if ONLYACTIVE were to comment on acknowledging this issue and what steps they're taking to remedy this wide-spread problem.

The good news is, since this is a very prevailing issue mustering a lot of noise, AA will undoubtedly address it since they are a stand up organization...which ultimately will result in more orders for both the vendors and manufacturer. Case in point: there is an AA EL for sale in the classifieds, and no-one is jumping on it. Had this come available earlier in the year (before this issue has risen) many of us here on this forum would have bought it (due to superlative initial batch success and current long wait-time).



Primarily, yes, but for treaceability, I will summarize all known/documented use cases below:

1. tinny/raspy noise occurs at cold start-up and around 2k RPM

2. NOTE: the tinny/raspy noise doesn’t happen EVERY COLD START nor EVERY TIME RPMs hit ~2k…
a. to me at least, while in 1st gear and clutched in (I’m 6sp), or in neutral, and revving past 2k RPM: approx.. 70% of the time the noise occurs
b. so this isn’t 100% repeatable…about 30% of the use cases, all sounds fantastic. Understanding why this doesn't occur 100% on all cold starts and every time the RPMs hit 2k, might lead to a timely resolution.

3. occurring on cold engines and also on warm engines. I have experienced some cold starts that were quite nice...just as expected. Only yesterday, I was with the family doing a Costco run…the startup sounded like someone fired a 22 caliber pistol. Scared the crap out of my family…wife even asked: is that normal, what's wrong with your car???

4. most users reported setups using stock downpipes and stock back muffler, but also on a few aftermarket mufflers, 1-2 owners even using AA’s own valved exhaust
a. most users are AA EL non-resonated, but some resonated ELs also reported same issue

5. This is 100% true all the time: Sport+ or Sport modes automatically engage the tinny/raspy sound around 2k RPMs (have not experienced it in efficient mode…and seriously, why would I drive in efficient to further gag the car’s noises???)

6. BOTH under load (i.e. starting off from a red light) and stationary revs

And last question...it seems that the most recent AA EL mid-pipes have a different design or build than the original one. Can anyone comment what changed?

I am sorry that you are unhappy with the sound of our EL, please note we have not made any changes to the MP. We only changed the Resonators. The cold start is an issue that we can't change, but fortunately it's only for a short period. Please remember sound is subjective and not everyone will agree on different sounds. We design our systems on the idea that the majority will like the sound, and with the exception that it may not be a 100% to their liking all the time, but still much improved. The other variant is the different rear exhaust sytems used, the Akra mated to the EL in my opinion is horrible but again that is my opinion, others may differ. This is in no way any offense to Akra as they do make excellent products but my opinion is that titanium tends to magnify the tinning and raspy sound. Overall I believe we have made a huge improvement over the sound of the OEM F87 and the majority is quite pleased, but as we all know we can't please everyone. When BMW made the F80 / F82 we all loved the car but hated the exhaust, mostly everyone complained but BMW did nothing to help, in fact they produced the F87 with the same horrible exhaust sound. Did the cars stop selling, did most people return them because hated the sound ? AA spent a lot of time and effort in coming up with a solution to help , 1st with the single MP which was a huge success to the point that is was copied, again it's still a great product and many people still prefer it over the EL, so at least we offer 2 options because again sound is subjective. At present we have done the best we can for the F87 EL, not saying we ever quit on making our products better, and if we do find any improvements we will surely let everyone know. FYI we will take returns of unused EL's as we have many backorders to fill, for those of you who want to cancel your orders there will be a 100% refund. Those that have used EL's I am sure you can sell them as they are none available for a while. We at AA only wish the best for all and to enjoy their cars, so if our product does not make you Happy, for that we are sorry and only wish you the best in finding what makes you happy. Thank you.

[COChris]

I have the AA midpipe with stock axle back and experience the tinny sound for the first couple minutes of driving. This is even after a warm restart. Huge improvement over stock sound regardless of those first couple minutes of VTEC kicking in.

[Supadice]

Originally Posted by ONLYACTIVE

I am sorry that you are unhappy with the sound of our EL, please note we have not made any changes to the MP. We only changed the Resonators. The cold start is an issue that we can't change, but fortunately it's only for a short period. Please remember sound is subjective and not everyone will agree on different sounds. We design our systems on the idea that the majority will like the sound, and with the exception that it may not be a 100% to their liking all the time, but still much improved. The other variant is the different rear exhaust sytems used, the Akra mated to the EL in my opinion is horrible but again that is my opinion, others may differ. This is in no way any offense to Akra as they do make excellent products but my opinion is that titanium tends to magnify the tinning and raspy sound. Overall I believe we have made a huge improvement over the sound of the OEM F87 and the majority is quite pleased, but as we all know we can't please everyone. When BMW made the F80 / F82 we all loved the car but hated the exhaust, mostly everyone complained but BMW did nothing to help, in fact they produced the F87 with the same horrible exhaust sound. Did the cars stop selling, did most people return them because hated the sound ? AA spent a lot of time and effort in coming up with a solution to help , 1st with the single MP which was a huge success to the point that is was copied, again it's still a great product and many people still prefer it over the EL, so at least we offer 2 options because again sound is subjective. At present we have done the best we can for the F87 EL, not saying we ever quit on making our products better, and if we do find any improvements we will surely let everyone know. FYI we will take returns of unused EL's as we have many backorders to fill, for those of you who want to cancel your orders there will be a 100% refund. Those that have used EL's I am sure you can sell them as they are none available for a while. We at AA only wish the best for all and to enjoy their cars, so if our product does not make you Happy, for that we are sorry and only wish you the best in finding what makes you happy. Thank you.

How do you feel about Remus Race with resonated EL

[Supadice]

Do we know what's causing the sound

[scarygary]

Originally Posted by COChris

I have the AA midpipe with stock axle back and experience the tinny sound for the first couple minutes of driving. This is even after a warm restart. Huge improvement over stock sound regardless of those first couple minutes of VTEC kicking in.

Seems to be a lot of data pointing towards the stock axle back not playing nice with EL, along with the start up phase where the turbos are bypassed to heat the cats up (I think that is what is going on.) Doesn't necessarily have to be a cold start like you said. I have noticed even when everything is operating temp, you hop back in straight to sport+, and it has a weird sound until the wastegates close up (I think.)

I plan to have the EL and AA back box installed tomorrow, so hopefully Ill have good input to report back with for the thread.

[epic]

Originally Posted by Supadice

Do we know what's causing the sound

For startup, it seems like yes - it's the cat-warming procedure.

[Nicname]

My Remus sport and Resonated EL just shipped. May wait a week or 2 for opinions here and decide if I'll return for the single midpipe.

[No_curebimmer]

Originally Posted by ONLYACTIVE

I am sorry that you are unhappy with the sound of our EL, please note we have not made any changes to the MP. We only changed the Resonators. The cold start is an issue that we can't change, but fortunately it's only for a short period. Please remember sound is subjective and not everyone will agree on different sounds. We design our systems on the idea that the majority will like the sound, and with the exception that it may not be a 100% to their liking all the time, but still much improved. The other variant is the different rear exhaust sytems used, the Akra mated to the EL in my opinion is horrible but again that is my opinion, others may differ. This is in no way any offense to Akra as they do make excellent products but my opinion is that titanium tends to magnify the tinning and raspy sound. Overall I believe we have made a huge improvement over the sound of the OEM F87 and the majority is quite pleased, but as we all know we can't please everyone. When BMW made the F80 / F82 we all loved the car but hated the exhaust, mostly everyone complained but BMW did nothing to help, in fact they produced the F87 with the same horrible exhaust sound. Did the cars stop selling, did most people return them because hated the sound ? AA spent a lot of time and effort in coming up with a solution to help , 1st with the single MP which was a huge success to the point that is was copied, again it's still a great product and many people still prefer it over the EL, so at least we offer 2 options because again sound is subjective. At present we have done the best we can for the F87 EL, not saying we ever quit on making our products better, and if we do find any improvements we will surely let everyone know. FYI we will take returns of unused EL's as we have many backorders to fill, for those of you who want to cancel your orders there will be a 100% refund. Those that have used EL's I am sure you can sell them as they are none available for a while. We at AA only wish the best for all and to enjoy their cars, so if our product does not make you Happy, for that we are sorry and only wish you the best in finding what makes you happy. Thank you.

Thank you for your input ONLYACTIVE and taking the time to reply and acknowledge our concerns.

Without a doubt, your non resonated EL for my stock DP and stock back muffler has improved the overall exhaust sound - that no one can dispute. However, as human nature is, we tend to focus on the downsides: about 70% of the time (start-up, and around 2k RPM, regardless if engine is warm or cold) the tinny sound briefly exhibits itself.


Agreed- sound is objective,and it's nearly impossible to please everyone, and the Akra exhaust you mentioned seems to be consistent: most of the vids and owners comments match the marketing original vids …however no one on this thread recall seeing, reading or hearing anything about this tinny rasp in the original AA EL batch or pilot dev cars. This was non existent months ago…and I don't believe anyone who has this sound currently in their cars wants, likes it, or more importantly, bought this EL knowingly. This is bad, much worse than OEM. From your comments, it seems you did not intentionally design this momentary rasp at startup or ~2k RPM, but can you comment what technically can cause this and what can be done about it? I am hoping that you can design some inline resonators to specifically counteract these vibrations at startup and around 2k RPM…(with a special cost incentive to owners that have identified this issue?)

Returning the AA EL for me isn't a choice: I already had my shop discard the OEM midpipe fully believing what I initially heard months ago from first owners…so this has become a financial pit since most of us who reported it already installed the EL, thus we can't have 100% refund (not to mention the installation costs). Selling it at the moment isn't a choice either since no-one is looking to buy it (thanks to this thread).

Moreover, as I have a vested interest to get this fixed, as long as this issue remains unsolved, I doubt more orders will come in, and as some already reported, are on the fence on returning it. In my opinion, this is big enough to affect the AA EL sales lifestyle unless there is a solution.

Is anyone near Miami FL and willing to collaborate w/ AA as to why is this occurring? Buying another exhaust piece/muffler (Remus, Dinan, AA,etc) costing 2-3 grand to fix EL's issues doesn't seem like a smart $ solution.

To recap: for me at least, the non resonated AA EL midpipe is a 3 steps forward, and 2 back solution in improving the exhaust note: it solves one issue, but it certainly creates another…who wants to have their car sounds like a (high pitched) gun going off? I certainly don't…so I am stuck

[No_curebimmer]

Originally Posted by ONLYACTIVE

[
The cold start is an issue that we can't change, but fortunately it's only for a short period.

I think you may have missed this: the tinny raspy noise doesn't happen ONLY at cold startup. As a few of us already reported, it is also present while the car is warm and RPMs climb past 2k (about 70% of the time).

So no…this isn't a momentary thing. To me, this happens every time I drive the car, since one must rev the car past 2k to properly drive and enjoy it. I wouldn't make such a noise about this if it only happened at cold startup…

[Wah]

Originally Posted by No_curebimmer

I think you may have missed this: the tinny raspy noise doesn't happen ONLY at cold startup. As a few of us already reported, it is also present while the car is warm and RPMs climb past 2k (about 70% of the time).

So no…this isn't a momentary thing. To me, this happens every time I drive the car, since one must rev the car past 2k to properly drive and enjoy it. I wouldn't make such a noise about this if it only happened at cold startup…

Someone reported having a broken weld causing that issue. Did you check the welds?

[StephGOD]

Originally Posted by scarygary

Seems to be a lot of data pointing towards the stock axle back not playing nice with EL, along with the start up phase where the turbos are bypassed to heat the cats up (I think that is what is going on.) Doesn't necessarily have to be a cold start like you said. I have noticed even when everything is operating temp, you hop back in straight to sport+, and it has a weird sound until the wastegates close up (I think.)

I plan to have the EL and AA back box installed tomorrow, so hopefully Ill have good input to report back with for the thread.

I think this is spot on based on my own experience yesterday after driving my car for about an hour trying out multiple different scenarios. From what I gathered, if the initial "cold start" startup sequence isn't allowed to fully finish (i.e. car is still in high idle), I can reproduce the raspy noise each & every time regardless if the engine is already warm. However, if I allow the car to sit first and reach normal idle speed (~600-700 rpm), then everything is fine. It will still make the sound occasionally around 2k rpm under the right conditions but the difference is it's just for a sec or two and isn't prolonged like immediately after starting the engine and attempting to drive the car.

FWIW I reached out to epic yesterday afternoon and he mentioned that he had physically disabled both the cold start sequence & "GTS roar" on his car (using Bootmod3) and that seemed to really make a discernable difference in getting rid of the raspy noise immediately after start up. I believe this is exactly what the guys over at AA did on TheHoffmobile M2C during the development stage, hence why the annoying rasp sound was never evident in any of the early stage videos demonstrating the EL mid pipe. This maybe perhaps the only current solution which would make the exhaust "livable" in my opinion.

Btw scarygary I have the exact setup you'll be installing soon (i.e. nos-res EL + AA back box) so it'll be interesting to hear your personal experience with this exact setup as well.

[scarygary]

Originally Posted by StephGOD

I think this is spot on based on my own experience yesterday after driving my car for about an hour trying out multiple different scenarios. From what I gathered, if the initial "cold start" startup sequence isn't allowed to fully finish (i.e. car is still in high idle), I can reproduce the raspy noise each & every time regardless if the engine is already warm. However, if I allow the car to sit first and reach normal idle speed (~600-700 rpm), then everything is fine. It will still make the sound occasionally around 2k rpm under the right conditions but the difference is it's just for a sec or two and isn't prolonged like immediately after starting the engine and attempting to drive the car.

FWIW I reached out to epic yesterday afternoon and he mentioned that he had physically disabled both the cold start sequence & "GTS roar" on his car (using Bootmod3) and that seemed to really make a discernable difference in getting rid of the raspy noise immediately after start up. I believe this is exactly what the guys over at AA did on TheHoffmobile M2C during the development stage, hence why the annoying rasp sound was never evident in any of the early stage videos demonstrating the EL mid pipe. This maybe perhaps the only current solution which would make the exhaust "livable" in my opinion.

Btw scarygary I have the exact setup you'll be installing soon (i.e. nos-res EL + AA back box) so it'll be interesting to hear your personal experience with this exact setup as well.

Ah forgot to mention mine will be resonated! I never quite bought into the "get non-res if you plan on keeping the stock dp." My thinking was the resonated should sound better no matter what, and the amount of volume lost (if any) would be negligible.

So you are saying that you get the nasty sound even with AA back box? That is a bummer. It may not affect me at all because I dont put the car in Sport+ until the oil temp is up over 200. Fingers crossed ha

[No_curebimmer]

This is good everyone…the more use cases, AA EL exhaust combos, experiences etc, the closer we could potentially get to identifying a solution.

StephGOD I was not aware that the dev vehicle had its OEM cold start up sequence modified/nullified. My car is still under warranty, but is a '19 so the DME should be amenable to piggy back solutions.

At this point, I am not ready to spend any more $ on exhaust upgrades until conclusive reports say we have a solution.

PS a few days ago, I have let me car warm up/idle for ~ 5 min, and in the subsequent drive, I still experienced the sound about 50% of the time passing 2k RPM (I was in Sport +). Driving the car in efficient mode isn't an option, as that neuters everything…

[TheoIam]

This is the vid that sold me on the midpipe from ESB.

Is the sound you are referring to at 0:04? If so not so bad if I get the rest of that sound.

[Supadice]

Originally Posted by scarygary

Ah forgot to mention mine will be resonated! I never quite bought into the "get non-res if you plan on keeping the stock dp." My thinking was the resonated should sound better no matter what, and the amount of volume lost (if any) would be negligible.

So you are saying that you get the nasty sound even with AA back box? That is a bummer. It may not affect me at all because I dont put the car in Sport+ until the oil temp is up over 200. Fingers crossed ha

I never understood resonators making less volume. Yes a tiny bit but not enough to choose res over non res for volume. Resonators main function is not based around volume, it's purpose is to limit unwanted resonance AKA shitty sounds

[No_curebimmer]

Originally Posted by TheoIam

This is the vid that sold me on the midpipe from ESB.

Is the sound you are referring to at 0:04? If so not so bad if I get the rest of that sound.

Absolutely- this was the money vid that instantly made me order the AA EL non-rez.

I could be mistaken, but the OP (@ESB) was one of the earlier EL adopters (late Winter/early Spring), and he hasn't complained about the bad start up nor ~ 2K raspiness.

Edit: the 4sec mark in @ESB's video ISN'T the raspiness most of us are referring to. See my vid below at 5 sec mark (premise: lunch time start up, car sat for 3-4 hrs).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12-a...w?usp=drivesdk

[MaximilianB]

Originally Posted by scarygary

Ah forgot to mention mine will be resonated! I never quite bought into the "get non-res if you plan on keeping the stock dp." My thinking was the resonated should sound better no matter what, and the amount of volume lost (if any) would be negligible.

So you are saying that you get the nasty sound even with AA back box? That is a bummer. It may not affect me at all because I dont put the car in Sport+ until the oil temp is up over 200. Fingers crossed ha

scarygary Can you also post a sound clip of the Resonated EL + AA Back Box? I am currently on the fence as to whether I want to pull the trigger on this exact setup but I have yet to find any videos of the resonated EL midpipe paired with AA's backbox.

All this talk about the annoying tinny/raspy noise at startup and around 2k rpm is making me question if maybe I should pair the AA backbox with the single midpipe? Or even just the OEM midpipe? Or a different setup entirely? Personally I don't hate the sound of the OEM setup but the EL sounds great from what I've seen online, so that's what I've been leaning towards until seeing all of the issues in this thread.

I've been holding off on changing the exhaust since I picked up my 21 M2 Comp in December and now I'm not sure which direction I want to go. Any input/advice would be much appreciated!

[TheoIam]

Originally Posted by No_curebimmer

Absolutely- this was the money vid that instantly made me order the AA EL non-rez.

I could be mistaken, but the OP (@ESB) was one of the earlier EL adopters (late Winter/early Spring), and he hasn't complained about the bad start up nor ~ 2K raspiness.

But is the noise at 0:04 in ESB’s clip the tinnie rasp you are ferrying to?

[No_curebimmer]

Originally Posted by TheoIam

But is the noise at 0:04 in ESB’s clip the tinnie rasp you are ferrying to?

Negative. See above..I updated the post with one of my vids, 5 sec mark clearly shows the problem

[No_curebimmer]

Originally Posted by MaximilianB

scarygary Can you also post a sound clip of the Resonated EL + AA Back Box? I am currently on the fence as to whether I want to pull the trigger on this exact setup but I have yet to find any videos of the resonated EL midpipe paired with AA's backbox.

All this talk about the annoying tinny/raspy noise at startup and around 2k rpm is making me question if maybe I should pair the AA backbox with the single midpipe? Or even just the OEM midpipe? Or a different setup entirely? Personally I don't hate the sound of the OEM setup but the EL sounds great from what I've seen online, so that's what I've been leaning towards until seeing all of the issues in this thread.

I've been holding off on changing the exhaust since I picked up my 21 M2 Comp in December and now I'm not sure which direction I want to go. Any input/advice would be much appreciated!

I would wait to see the outcome of this thread, since it is very active.

If you are itching to upgrade exhaust, single AA midpipe is the safest bet, it's been around longer with no real complaints - it is a stellar product, just different (less deep, less inline 6 turbo) vs a clean-sounding EL

TBH - startup isn't really an issue for me since it goes away quickly, I could live with that. It's the 2k RPM tinny sound that happens ~ 70% of the time, regardless warm/cold car, or if I let it 'settle' and have a few mins for undisturbed startup sequence.

[No_curebimmer]

Originally Posted by Wah

Someone reported having a broken weld causing that issue. Did you check the welds?

Thanks for that…I will have my indy Bimmer dealer recheck the install for clearance issues or welding, or even exhaust leaks. I shared my videos with them and agreed that it doesn't sound kosher, so they'll check in the upcoming days once the 4th of July holiday is over.

Of course, I will post any findings