[Boss330]

Originally Posted by chris82

Well thanks for pointing that out. That actually explains how much better the M2 is than the RS because tires make the difference.

As pointed out by dmz The Focus RS isn't on the optional Cup 2 tire.

So, quite contrary, it actually explains how good the Focus RS is since it is only 1/10th behind the DCT equipped M2...

[chris82]

Originally Posted by Boss330

As pointed out by dmz The Focus RS isn't on the optional Cup 2 tire.

So, quite contrary, it actually explains how good the Focus RS is since it is only 1/10th behind the DCT equipped M2...

I did not see his post, your statement is correct

[Boosted_N54]

Originally Posted by chris82

Well thanks for pointing that out. That actually explains how much better the M2 is than the RS because tires make the difference.

so does dct vs manual make a big difference

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by N & M

BMW has to up its game but also this circuit favors the RS. I would like to see them at different venue where the rear drive chassis can show its stuff.

Also AWD is always going to win when the weather goes fowl. That is why I think BMW M needs to rethink its AWD tech.

M's need to go on treadmill with sweats on Rocky style and drop 150-200 lbs. Germans are adding more and more power but on technical track the truth comes out. M2 is probably a bit faster but we need a test with cars that have manual tranny and same tires.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by GRK_TrackJunkie

so does dct vs manual make a big difference

Depends on the driver, but Autobild tested the E92 M3 back to back with MT6 and DCT

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/test-...kg-692888.html

3/10ths difference in favour of the DCT (a longer lap than the M2/RS lap so smaller difference here)

That was back in 2008. The current DCT shifts even faster, so most likely the advantage has increased...

[eau_rouge]

First of all, doing a "track battle" on such a short track is nonsense if you ask me. Like previously stated before in this thread, even a hypercar would be much (much) faster. The track is too short to do a proper comparison. I am the last one who complains about the lack of skill of drivers in Youtube videos - but this guy seemed to have a bit of a struggle on track. I think Randy Pobst from MT would have done much better when comparing both.

Other than that, I really think that you can compare those two. The RS is Fords performance oriented car in that segment, same as the M2 is from BMW. Both have around 350-370 hp and are proper engineered cars (more hardcore than the ST or the M235i). The RS is really "cheap" here in Germany, when you look at the numbers and what the car is capable of. In regards of the styling, I have to say that the new RS looks pretty "dull" in person. I've really loved the look of the old one, with those wide rally fenders and the huge air intakes and spoilers. The Ford engineers said that they had the choice between wide fenders and an advanced AWD-system. As we all know, they choose the AWD-system because of the much improved performance over the old RS with FWD. I can only applaud them for that decision, but still, I have to love the look of my car and want to turn around as soon as I walk away from it. That surely applies to the M2 and that is why I (would) choose to order that one. I've tested the RS3 as well, but I am not a fan (and maybe never will be) of AWD. Both, the RS and the RS3 were much cheaper after all discounts, but I've still decided to go with the M2.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by eau_rouge

First of all, doing a "track battle" on such a short track is nonsense if you ask me. Like previously stated before in this thread, even a hypercar would be much (much) faster. The track is too short to do a proper comparison. I am the last one who complains about the lack of skill of drivers in Youtube videos - but this guy seemed to have a bit of a struggle on track. I think Randy Pobst from MT would have done much better when comparing both.

Other than that, I really think that you can compare those two. The RS is Fords performance oriented car in that segment, same as the M2 is from BMW. Both have around 350-370 hp and are proper engineered cars (more hardcore than the ST or the M235i). The RS is really "cheap" here in Germany, when you look at the numbers and what the car is capable of. In regards of the styling, I have to say that the new RS looks pretty "dull" in person. I've really loved the look of the old one, with those wide rally fenders and the huge air intakes and spoilers. The Ford engineers said that they had the choice between wide fenders and an advanced AWD-system. As we all know, they choose the AWD-system because of the much improved performance over the old RS with FWD. I can only applaud them for that decision, but still, I have to love the look of my car and want to turn around as soon as I walk away from it. That surely applies to the M2 and that is why I (would) choose to order that one. I've tested the RS3 as well, but I am not a fan (and maybe never will be) of AWD. Both, the RS and the RS3 were much cheaper after all discounts, but I've still decided to go with the M2.

Chris Harris disagrees with you about Llandow Circuit...

People may sneer at Llandow, but for this excersice I reccon it's a perfect test. Staccato acceleration zones, big braking points and all types of corner speeds.

This is a tight technical circuit, Llandow. Very good for testing fast cars.

And that was a quote from a test between the 991 GT3 RS, Aston Martin GT12 and the McLaren 650S

So, these are the lap times for the supercars at Llandow:

• GT3 RS: 43,18s
• GT12: 45,48s
• 650S: 43,05

Chris Harris did a 47.7s lap in the M135i and a 47.5s lap in the AMG A45. Which kind of puts the AutoExpress M2 lap in perspective and doesn't really seem that badly driven (as some claim). A full second off (M2 46,7s vs M135i at 47,7s) at such a short track is quite a bit. To me that indicates that the M2 lap in the OP actually was quite good.

• M2: 46,7s (AutoExpress)
  
• M135i: 47,7s (Chris Harris)

[eau_rouge]

[QUOTE=Boss330;19900678]Chris Harris disagrees with you about Llandow Circuit...



And that was a quote from a test between the 991 GT3 RS, Aston Martin GT12 and the McLaren 650S

Chris Harris did a 47.7s lap in the M135i and a 47.5s lap in the AMG A45. Which kind of puts the AutoExpress M2 lap in perspective and doesn't really seem that badly driven (as some claim). A full second off (M2 46,7s vs M135i at 47,7s) at such a short track is quite a bit. To me that indicates that the M2 lap in the OP actually was quite good.

• M2: 46,7s (AutoExpress)
  
• M135i: 47,7s (Chris Harris)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, Chapeau, you got me on this one (kind of).

I totally see your (and Chris') point here, but I still think that there are better circuits to prove a thing or two about the performance of cars (say Anglesey Circuit or Hockenheim, which is the track were the M2 "killed" the M4).

[Boss330]

[QUOTE=eau_rouge;19900709]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Chris Harris disagrees with you about Llandow Circuit...



And that was a quote from a test between the 991 GT3 RS, Aston Martin GT12 and the McLaren 650S

Chris Harris did a 47.7s lap in the M135i and a 47.5s lap in the AMG A45. Which kind of puts the AutoExpress M2 lap in perspective and doesn't really seem that badly driven (as some claim). A full second off (M2 46,7s vs M135i at 47,7s) at such a short track is quite a bit. To me that indicates that the M2 lap in the OP actually was quite good.

• M2: 46,7s (AutoExpress)
  
• M135i: 47,7s (Chris Harris)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, Chapeau, you got me on this one (kind of).

I totally see your (and Chris') point here, but I still think that there are better circuits to prove a thing or two about the performance of cars (say Anglesey Circuit or Hockenheim, which is the track were the M2 "killed" the M4).

Yeah, I don't disagree with you Nurburgring is also good since it's technical and long. That means more than just the handling aspect of the car plays a role in lap times. High power is also needed on the fast and long straight sections there.

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by DrtyJrze

I told the M2 faithfuls to not drink all of the pre release marketing hype

It's funny how the argument before was the M2 is a raw "driver's" car. Now it's all of a sudden luxurious and refined? Which narrative do you want to stick to fellas?

FYI, the M2 SCREAMS "boy racer". If you can't see that, you've got your rose colored glasses on as well while sipping that M2 Kool-Aid.

I don't particularly care for the looks, but I would buy the RS over an M2. But that shouldn't matter. Every person (or magazine/blog/etc.) isn't going to prefer exactly what you do. Enjoy the car that YOU like most.

Funny that you act as if you were 'right all along' and that we just weren't enlightened enough.

This is a comparison. Everything that is said is in comparison to the RS.

What, since the M2 is refined relative to the RS means that we were all a bunch of Kool Aid drinking idiots? Come on, that's ridiculous. The M2 being more refined than the RS doesn't mean that the M2 isn't still relatively raw for today's sports cars. No one was saying that it's the holy grail of rawness.

You're interpreting what we say in an extreme way because you're predisposed to having a negative opinion. Not saying that it isn't valid but come on.

This doesn't mean that the M2 is a bad car or any less of a car than what it was hyped to be. Like, it's not like it was blown out of the water by another RWD car and that it was absolute shit.

But yeah, I love my M2 and would still have picked it over the RS or M3/4 at the same price, because it's the car that performs in areas the way I am looking for at this moment in time and is a small RWD compact coupe.

Just confused why you say this essentially makes me ignorant. This is a comparison, it doesn't mean that the hype wasn't met. It was.

Seems like you are putting the M2 owners down as much as you complain that the M2 owners bolster themselves up. But I agree with you fundamentally about buying whatever makes you happy. M3/4 and RS definitely are better buys for certain people.

And it's ridiculous for anyone to dismiss the RS as inferior just since it's a Ford. I'm sure it's a beast and yeah, more raw than my car.

But it's ridiculous you think this proves that we were drinking Kool-Aid, lol.

[DJKapeesh]

That Ford! What a Machine!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by VO_1M

No one else thinks he can't drive? Oversteering away in the M2...

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Me. If the timed lap (timer) was actually in sync with his commentary there, then that was a terrible hot lap. He's in at least one gear up to start the lap, then oversteering with delayed correction, late on power out of corners, short shifting all over the place. I'd disregard both lap times honestly, and the delta between the two.

...but other than that I think he did a great job.

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

He drove like $hit

Originally Posted by Smee.x.Again

Yeah, his driving left a lot to be desired. He was a second up in the first chicane, yet only ended up 0.1secs faster.

Originally Posted by P7X

RS is a great car for the money and practicality. Drift mode is GHEY.

More to my point, that dude seem to hit every other apex, better driver was needed...

Originally Posted by VO_1M

Where's Chris Harris when u need him lol

I recently posted two videos of Chris Harris driving at Llandow. In the first video he did a 47,7s lap in a M135i. The AutoExpress driver did a 46,7s lap in the M2.

IMO, a 1 second improvement on such a short track is quite significant. And shows that the M2 lap really wasn't badly driven...

Chris Harris also did 43,1s laps in the GT3 RS and McLaren 650S and a 45,5s lap in the Aston GT12

I really don't think that the M2 have all that much more in it than the 46,7s lap. Perhaps a few tenths? But the RS could also have a few more tenths in it with a different driver. So, that would be just speculation.

But IMO, the Chris Harris laps at Llandow puts the M2 and RS laps in perspective and really doesn't make them seem badly driven. I mean, the M2 is just 1,1s slower than a hardcore Aston GT12. How much quicker could he realistically have been in the M2? The GT3 RS and 650S is just in a different league than the M2 and RS.

BTW. These videos are usually edited and cross clipped with scenes from different laps used in the final edition. So the hot lap in the video might not be relevant to the 46,7s lap time...

[raysspl]

Originally Posted by eugegall

1) Its a Ford
2) Its still a Ford
3) I'm not a boy racer

Thats why they shouldn't be compared.

Terrible comparison.

THIS

[koastal]

Lucky he had a DCT otherwise the Focus would have beaten him.

[Anderw]

:L

[Nothing]

I don't like the "boy racer" look of the RS, Civic Type-R, STi or any other car in that kind of hot hatch category. But the fact of the matter is, esp in America, we don't see performance sedans often (unless they're German) and when we do, they kind of suck. I'm looking at you Chevy SS.

The RS is ~$15k less, costs less to insure, parts wont have the bullshit M-tax and in day to day use... far more practical. The M2 doesn't have $15k worth of anything to justify the price. BMW charges what you'll pay and not enough people pause to question why. Then these forum sponsors know you'll pony up for their BS too: How the hell is this $529??? And eventually, when you do go on a track day, the RS will probably turn a better lap time.

Ford knew that the RS badge meant something and that it STILL should mean something. BMW just built a car and threw the M badge on it like they do every damn car they sell these days. The M badge is being completely diluted into a garbage logo stuck on the backs and sides of SUVs and automatic grande coupes that bought the "sporty pack". They get an M logo on their wheels, brakes, steering wheel and sometimes they get some stickers stuck on the side! How Fast and Furious of them!

[eau_rouge]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I recently posted two videos of Chris Harris driving at Llandow. In the first video he did a 47,7s lap in a M135i. The AutoExpress driver did a 46,7s lap in the M2.

IMO, a 1 second improvement on such a short track is quite significant. And shows that the M2 lap really wasn't badly driven...

Chris Harris also did 43,1s laps in the GT3 RS and McLaren 650S and a 45,5s lap in the Aston GT12

I really don't think that the M2 have all that much more in it than the 46,7s lap. Perhaps a few tenths? But the RS could also have a few more tenths in it with a different driver. So, that would be just speculation.

But IMO, the Chris Harris laps at Llandow puts the M2 and RS laps in perspective and really doesn't make them seem badly driven. I mean, the M2 is just 1,1s slower than a hardcore Aston GT12. How much quicker could he realistically have been in the M2? The GT3 RS and 650S is just in a different league than the M2 and RS.

BTW. These videos are usually edited and cross clipped with scenes from different laps used in the final edition. So the hot lap in the video might not be relevant to the 46,7s lap time...

I don't like the fact that he is talking into the camera while on a fast lap. IMO you have to focus and give all concentration on the car and the line you are driving. But maybe thats just me with my tongue out when racing

He does that on both fast laps, so I dont say that he couldn't drive the Ford faster as well. On the other hand, it is always easier to post a good laptime in an AWD car, then it is with a RWD car (as you can see at the beginning of the lap when he nearly "lost" the car while talking extensively).

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by eau_rouge

I don't like the fact that he is talking into the camera while on a fast lap. IMO you have to focus and give all concentration on the car and the line you are driving. But maybe thats just me with my tongue out when racing

He does that on both fast laps, so I dont say that he couldn't drive the Ford faster as well. On the other hand, it is always easier to post a good laptime in an AWD car, then it is with a RWD car (as you can see at the beginning of the lap when he nearly "lost" the car while talking extensively).

As I wrote in my previous post, the editing process often involves using footage from a different lap than the quick lap. I wouldn't be sure that it's the same lap that is shown in the video that is the 47.7s lap...

[ilovewagons]

Two thoughts:

1) Sport Auto (German) recently tested the M2 around Hockenheim and found it the fastest series production BMW they'd tested. Not fastest 2 series, fastest BMW. It also happened to be 2 seconds faster than the CLA, an AWD car with +-80hp more than the Focus RS.

2) If this test is representative of the Focus RS' actual performance, then I have no problem accepting that somehow Ford have managed to work some kind of magic to get a heavier, less powerful car to be neck and neck with a lighter, more powerful one. There will always be something faster. It's a fact of life.

Regardless, I've already made my order (M2, mineral grey, no sunroof). I've driven lots of front biased AWD cars and I just really like RWD. The M2 is a superb front engined RWD car. When I drove one, I really liked it and I don't want anything else. Anyone else purchasing one, if this single test makes you doubt your purchase, you should go get your deposit back and give your prospective car the chance to get the owner it deserves.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Boss330

As I wrote in my previous post, the editing process often involves using footage from a different lap than the quick lap. I wouldn't be sure that it's the same lap that is shown in the video that is the 47.7s lap...

Those are good data points for reference, and gives some credibility to the M2's reported time.

Auto Express should follow the example set by Evo and Motor Trend and show the timed laps instead of juxtaposing the timer with some dude's ragged lap.

[B_Rice]

Nice to see ford step up and make such a good STI hatch.

[bluekn8286]

I love how some folks get super mad when an M car doesn't get high enough praise or the competition performs similarly/slight edges ahead. So what? Ford did a great job, give them credit! Just means that BMW has to work a little harder to make the gap even larger.