[///AVM]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

That's interesting info. A more agressive 1-2 can make a heavy car feel much lighter. I'm not sure if id be happy with DCT. Coming from the zf8, I find paddle shifting boring. However, it is nice to just be able to cruise when you want to not think about it.

Dave

I agree with you 100%. I never paddle shift in DCT manual mode. I simply like the engagement of using the shifter; it pacifies the residual MT fanboy in me.

I suppose the paddles would be great on a track if you are trying to post a time but I have no impetus to post a time, nor even attend the track.

///AVM

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Dave

I agree with you 100%. I never paddle shift in DCT manual mode. I simply like the engagement of using the shifter; it pacifies the residual MT fanboy in me.

I suppose the paddles would be great on a track if you are trying to post a time but I have no impetus to post a time, nor even attend the track.

///AVM

I too started off in the M2 using the paddles, but am 100% using the shifter now. Far more fun and engaging, like a MT.

Also, I have "shifted" (paddle or not) many BMW ZF autos, and cant say I would compare the experience to shifting the DCT in an M car. Night and day experience IMO

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

Also, I have "shifted" (paddle or not) many BMW ZF autos, and cant say I would compare the experience to shifting the DCT in an M car. Night and day experience IMO

Kutta

At this point I am going carry an open mind and give BMW engineers benefit of doubt that the ZF8 in the G87 M2/M2C will be equally capable and engaging as current DCT.

///AVM

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Kutta

At this point I am going carry an open mind and give BMW engineers benefit of doubt that the ZF8 in the G87 M2/M2C will be equally capable and engaging as current DCT.

///AVM

I would think so as well, and that was kinda my point. I think a ZF in a "regular" BMW versus and M are going to feel very different

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Kutta

At this point I am going carry an open mind and give BMW engineers benefit of doubt that the ZF8 in the G87 M2/M2C will be equally capable and engaging as current DCT.

///AVM

Originally Posted by BigKutta

I would think so as well, and that was kinda my point. I think a ZF in a "regular" BMW versus and M are going to feel very different

So I had an F22 with the "sport" ZF8 and then have driven the M5C ZF8 on the track quite a bit. The M version is definitely better, but it's still an automatic. The ZF works great as a transmission mostly left in drive, but can be driven spiritedly in manual mode. That said, you don't default to that manual mode.

When I moved over to the DCT, after a couple weeks I was in the gears all the time. The DCT feels much more like driving a traditional manual, without the physical operation of the gearbox. You default to the manual mode. That just never happened for me in the ZF.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

I too started off in the M2 using the paddles, but am 100% using the shifter now. Far more fun and engaging, like a MT.

Also, I have "shifted" (paddle or not) many BMW ZF autos, and cant say I would compare the experience to shifting the DCT in an M car. Night and day experience IMO

I use both depending on how I'm feeling or which is easier to hit at the time. The shifter is easier to use on a tight turn. I find I also use the shifter when I went to down shift just to hear the car do a throttle blip.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by F82PRETEND

So I had an F22 with the "sport" ZF8 and then have driven the M5C ZF8 on the track quite a bit. The M version is definitely better, but it's still an automatic. The ZF works great as a transmission mostly left in drive, but can be driven spiritedly in manual mode. That said, you don't default to that manual mode.

When I moved over to the DCT, after a couple weeks I was in the gears all the time. The DCT feels much more like driving a traditional manual, without the physical operation of the gearbox. You default to the manual mode. That just never happened for me in the ZF.

This is my assumption too. The DCT in an M just feels close to an MT, and the M2 just pushes you to be in manual mode all the time (I dont like driving in in auto), unlike the ZF autos I've driven, where like you say its best left in D

[medphysdave]

Decided to use the shifter instead of the paddles today. I found it to be reasonably rewarding to the point that I might use this method more often.

Dial up the intensity and immediateness of the shifts (DCT), and I could easily see why some will say shifting the DCT manually with the gear selector has them not missing the manual option. Combine this with the ability to drink a coffee or eat a burger if desired and the appeal grows even further. I don't believe it's enough to sway me to DCT, but has me curious enough that I might go test drive a DCT equipped car before placing an order.

[JCZ5]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Decided to use the shifter instead of the paddles today. I found it to be reasonably rewarding to the point that I might use this method more often.

Dial up the intensity and immediateness of the shifts (DCT), and I could easily see why some will say shifting the DCT manually with the gear selector has them not missing the manual option. Combine this with the ability to drink a coffee or eat a burger if desired and the appeal grows even further. I don't believe it's enough to sway me to DCT, but has me curious enough that I might go test drive a DCT equipped car before placing an order.

@///AVM creating a whole new movement of DCT shifting with the gear lever and not the paddles. Prior to him saying this, I thought everyone just went straight to the paddles and did not even consider shifting with the lever 😂

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

@///AVM creating a whole new movement of DCT shifting with the gear lever and not the paddles. Prior to him saying this, I thought everyone just went straight to the paddles and did not even consider shifting with the lever ��

I'm 99.5% shifter over the paddles. In the beginning I was 50/50

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

I'm 99.5% shifter over the paddles. In the beginning I was 50/50

My left hand is always on the wheel, so I downshift with the paddle. I up-shift with my right on the shifter usually.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

@///AVM creating a whole new movement of DCT shifting with the gear lever and not the paddles. Prior to him saying this, I thought everyone just went straight to the paddles and did not even consider shifting with the lever 😂

JC

One owners perspective . . .

On one extreme, for example, I would never consider owning a Miata with anything other than a MT. On the other extreme, I would never own a MT truck. Chassis and corresponding handling are major factors in my degree of MT interest.

My perspective on the matter started to 'come more into focus' when I moved into my Macan Turbo. No doubt about it, the Macan is as capable as many 'sport' or 'sporty' cars on the road . . . and when I started to truly experiment with the dual clutch (PDK).

The Macan PDK represents a gallimaufry of transmission options. At the end of the day, I found the Macan just too big to enjoy PDK manual mode. I did, however, come to appreciate just how enjoyable and well suited PDK automatic Sport and Sport Plus modes are for the chassis. Ultimately, although sporty and capable, my Macan made me realize I wanted to move into a true sport car.

Enter the 718 CGTS. Every ounce of me wanted to purchase a MT, but I took a bit of leap in faith and went with PDK. One of the best car purchase decisions I ever made, as PDK manual mode with shifter shifts offers the perfect balance of engagement and performance. For whatever reason, paddle shifting simply do not interest me. What makes PDK even better is, for times when I am just not feeling it, the automatic Sport and Sport Plus modes are truly impressive.

Finally, the M2C comes into the picture. I will be honest in stating I do not know where I will land when it comes DCT application. For now, I remain committed to manual mode. The problem is the M2C chassis. . . it is just so damn big and heavy, and reminds me more of my Macan Turbo than my 718 CGTS. As only a little more seat time will determine, I am starting to think the chassis is better suited for DCT automatic Sport or Sport Plus modes.

For the same reason I am on the fence about DCT manual mode, I would never consider getting a chassis a large/heavy as the M2C with MT.

JC, I know your M2C is coming equipped with MT. For the record, I want to reemphasize what I have stated is simply MY perspective, not meant to stir up the old DCT vs MT debate. There is no debate. There is only what each individual enjoys and wants. I know you know that, but others tend to get all riled-up when this topic comes to the surface.

///AVM

[///AVM]

Richard and CSBM

I apologize in advance for the long post, but I could not manage to condense my thoughts any further. Of course, I welcome your feedback . . . as I welcome any opportunity to learn something.

(1) There is some ‘give and take’ when it comes maximizing acceleration in your ‘current gear’ vs the ‘next gear.’ Once you reach peak power and things ‘flatten out,’ you can continue to apply throttle to get revs to red line. This might improve where you fall in the power band for the next gear but may also come at the cost of acceleration in the current gear – depending where peak power occurs relative to red line. So, the ‘numbers’ pertaining to where RPMs fall after shifting do not account for lost acceleration after reaching peak power and continuing to apply throttle to reach red line.

(2) No doubt, there are a lot of factors involved in this discussion. One important factor is highlighted with naturally aspirated vs turbo engines. Naturally aspirated engines typically achieve peak power (hp) at, near and sometimes even beyond red line. In addition, peak torque tends to occur higher up in the rev band. Conversely, turbo engines tend to achieve peak power well before red line, and peak torque characteristically occurs much lower in rev band relative to naturally aspirated engines.

Red line shifts have traditionally been associated with faster acceleration, particularly in naturally aspirated engines where peak power typically occurs close to red line and, similarly, peak torque does not occur until higher revs. I am not aware of a modern BMW with naturally aspirated engine, so I resorted to the 718 GTS 4.0 NA6, as well as 718 GTS T4 for comparison to the M2C.

(a) GTS 4.0 NA6. You must get revs near red line to achieve peak power and, similarly, peak torque does not occur until late in the power band. Thus, the pull is nearly all the way to red line AND getting to red line is required to drop revs into peak torque range. Not sure it is even possible to drop revs into peak power? Overall, red line shifts are clearly required to optimize acceleration . . . to optimize the power band.

(b) M2C T6. Peak power occurs early relative to red line and, typical of turbos, peak torque also occurs early in the rev band. Thus, pull flattens out well before red line, while shifting into peak torque is easily achieved. The ‘numbers’ correspond to what I perceive as the driver, in that the pull flattens out shortly after 5K RPM. Again, not sure it is possible to drop revs into peak power, although the early onset of peak power would seem to make it more feasible than with the GTS 4.0. However, you would have to throttle through peak power for a couple thousand revs to get to red line, representing part of the ‘give and take’ noted above in #1 above.

(c) GTS T4. Interesting that peak power occurs much closer to red line than the M2C and, for that matter, most modern turbos. Yet, like the M2C, peak torque occurs early in the rev band and extends high into the rev band. In other words, it pulls almost to red line (like a NA engine) while peak torque is achieved early (typical of turbo engines). I can attest that the numbers correspond to what I perceive as a driver, in that the GTS T4 pulls almost to red line. Pulling to red line is as enjoyable as it is beneficial and, combined with its torque band, are what I think make this engine so damn special.

To summarize, I do not feel red line shifting maximizes M2C acceleration. Optimal would be shifting at some point between peak power onset and red line. In this way you achieve that balance between staying in the heart of the power band on shifts, while not throttling through peak power trying to get to red line. As much as anything, it is a ‘feel thing’ that I have developed over the years . . . although I will acknowledge that feel is not always real.

I am more than open to your further thoughts and comments.

///AVM

* Charts presented borrowed from Automotive Catalog

[Karmic Man]

Simply use the wheel torque formula to calculate if it's optimal to shift early

https://x-engineer.org/automotive-en...torque-engine/

I plugged in the figures for the first four gears on a 6MT and found that one actually lose wheel torque in the next gear if they shift before 7500 rpm on the M2C

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Simply use the wheel torque formula to calculate if it's optimal to shift early

https://x-engineer.org/automotive-en...torque-engine/

I plugged in the figures for the first four gears on a 6MT and found that one actually lose wheel torque in the next gear if they shift before 7500 rpm on the M2C

Karmic

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback and reference.

I hope to continue the discussion by interjecting the following. . .

I think we are talking about optimal acceleration through the gear box, not just where you land in the power band with the 'next shift.'

So, going back to my prior post, I am curious how to best take into consideration the 'give and take' perspective with the M2C?

Does the increase wheel torque outweigh throttling through to red line for some 2K+ RPMs after reaching peak power when it comes to overall acceleration?

I am not suggesting short (early) shifting is better than red line (late) shifting. Rather, optimal falls in between (say 6-6.5K RPM) in the M2C.

I could be wrong. . .

///AVM

[JustinHEMI]

I'm dumb. I just realized this the title of this thread is for "2021" M2Cs and I replied about my 2020 haha. Sorry.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Karmic

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback and reference.

I hope to continue the discussion by interjecting the following. . .

I think we are talking about optimal acceleration through the gear box, not just where you land in the power band with the 'next shift.'

So, going back to my prior post, I am curious how to best take into consideration the 'give and take' perspective with the M2C?

Does the increase wheel torque outweigh throttling through to red line for some 2K+ RPMs after reaching peak power when it comes to overall acceleration?

I am not suggesting short (early) shifting is better than red line (late) shifting. Rather, optimal falls in between (say 6-6.5K RPM) in the M2C.

I could be wrong. . .

///AVM

Yes and that's why I replied with the link so you can do the maths

Force =Mass x Acceleration

The greater the torque to the wheel the higher is the acceleration.

Choose a point on your graph, say 7000 rpm which corresponds to roughly a torque figure of 410Nm.

From the wheel torque calculator, plug in the figures of
Torque: 410Nm
Gear Ratio: 4.11 (1st)
Final Drive: 3.46
Wheel Radius: 0.334 (265/35 19)

The resultant figures are (1st gear @ 7000 rpm)
Torque to the wheel = 2915Nm
Force = 8728N

If it was shifted to 2nd instead, rpm would drop from 7000 to 3951
Torque: 550Nm
Gear Ratio: 2.32 (2nd)
Final Drive: 3.46
Wheel Radius: 0.334 (265/35 19)

Torque to the wheel = 2207Nm
Force = 6609N

Hence you can see there is less force to move the car if we shift early in 1st. If you repeat the maths for the other gears, you would see that it's actually slower to shift early unless the tyres are slipping.

Of course this is all theoretical because with a turbo engine one would not see full power in 1st and 2nd and also there is more drivetrain loss in lower gears and more engine friction loss at higher rpm.

[CSBM5]

I was completely figuring in the flat hp curve of the S55 tune in the stock M2C which if you'll note in those graphs stays at essentially max hp to 7k rpms. Similar whp dyno results show the same thing. Leaving that behind, shifting early to only lose realized torque (power) to the ground through less gear multiplication is a recipe for reducing the car's ability to accelerate. Shifting the M2C at 6k rpms, without a doubt, significantly (i.e. measurably) reduces the performance of the car.

As Karmic Man pointed out even though there is a slight fall off past 7k rpms toward redline in HP, it's still a positive outcome to hang in there and realize the higher gear multiplication of engine torque in that gear to maximize acceleration. I'll have to setup up Cartest with the M2C data, and let it spit out optimized shift points for every gear, and we'll see that each gear is likely over 7k for that optimum point unless there is some bizarrely spaced ratio.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

As Karmic Man pointed out even though there is a slight fall off past 7k rpms toward redline in HP, it's still a positive outcome to hang in there and realize the higher gear multiplication of engine torque in that gear to maximize acceleration. I'll have to setup up Cartest with the M2C data, and let it spit out optimized shift points for every gear, and we'll see that each gear is likely over 7k for that optimum point unless there is some bizarrely spaced ratio.

Shifting early just results in slowing the car down so you then feel the switch to stronger acceleration again. That is, you are slowing down to feel like you are speeding up. It's a novice thing.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

I'm dumb. I just realized this the title of this thread is for "2021" M2Cs and I replied about my 2020 haha. Sorry.

Hemi

You are not dumb, and your contributions are welcomed.

It started out as 21' M2C in anticipation the new model year would come with some associated novelty. As it turned out, the only nuance regarding the 21' compared to the 20' models was the model year designation itself.

The thread has become a bit of a hodge-podge of topics, but mostly focused on the journey to new M2C ownership, including experiences and questions after delivery with the M2C.

It is all good. Just an outlet to share enthusiasm for the M2C.

///AVM

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Yes and that's why I replied with the link so you can do the math . . . Of course this is all theoretical because with a turbo engine one would not see full power in 1st and 2nd and also there is more drive train loss in lower gears and more engine friction loss at higher rpm.

Karmic

Thank you again.

I cannot dispute anything you, Richard and CSBM state.

In truth, the basis of my thoughts is relating what I experience as a driver to some basic power band charts. . . I do not my mind exposing shortcomings in my interpretation as a means to learn more about a topic I find interesting.

So, I accept what you, Richard and CSBM have shared represents the reality of optimal M2C acceleration . . . optimal power band access.

///AVM

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

. . . Shifting the M2C at 6k rpms, without a doubt, significantly (i.e. measurably) reduces the performance of the car. . . I'll have to setup up Cartest with the M2C data, and let it spit out optimized shift points for every gear, and we'll see that each gear is likely over 7k for that optimum point unless there is some bizarrely spaced ratio.

Thank you CSBM

As per my prior response to Karmic, I welcome the discussion and edification. I do not mind being wrong, and hope my comments do not come across as my digging in with a conviction toward being 'right.'

I am not sure the following will prove to make a difference in the discussion, but I wanted to be clear regarding my prior comments.

I do not believe I ever stated shifting at 6K was optimal. I think the origin of that particular shift point was your drag strip scenario.

My SUGGESTION was that red line shifting (7.6K RPM in M2C) was not optimal. More specifically, that shifting somewhere between peak power onset (5.2K RPM) and red line would be optimal. Accordingly, 7K might be optimal, but still not red line shifts.

Again, I could be wrong. Happy to accept, as my intention is better understanding, not to 'right.'

I look forward to your further feedback.

///AVM