09-19-2019, 04:57 PM | #67 | ||
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So what I learned/confirmed from this is that comparing cars based on spec sheets is only relevant for bragging rights (40 HP more, 100 LBS less) vs. real world performance. Quote:
For example, the M2CS has the 768M but w/the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires, which is the only 768M package the dealer can order. Yes, we went back and forth w/BMW on my M2C order and I could've gotten the 768M wheels only instead of the 788M but it was a special request not a check box on the system and there was no credit for the 788M wheels. So I wonder if by using the 2NH red calipers if the M2CS is also fitted w/the track pads that are included in the retrofit kit instead of the street pads? Last edited by omasou; 09-19-2019 at 05:07 PM.. |
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09-19-2019, 05:18 PM | #68 |
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If you refer to weight (apart from improved braking endurance and heat management) of M-CCB: the article mentions 43 kg weight difference between the tested cars, of which -21.7 kg because of M-CCB, -7.5 kg because of CFRP bonnet/hood and -4 kg because of CFRP roof (Sandwich-structured composite: "you can stand on the new roof - you cannot stand on the previous one").
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09-19-2019, 06:31 PM | #70 | |
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Performance delta is due to the difference in tires and brakes. Lighter weight and more power didn't do much for the CS here.
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09-19-2019, 06:57 PM | #71 |
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I have to laugh at all the naysayers here. It's only the tires, only the brakes, only the power, blah, blah, blah...
The performance enhancements is the sum of all the incremental gains. It's the added power, the reduced weight, the improve aero, the increased grip from the tires, the adaptive suspension that work in unison to provide the total gain. And no, I have not forgotten to mention the CCB as they do not contribute to improving lap times . As a comparison, I am well above 2 seconds faster at my local track in my M4cs than I was was with my previous M4 ON THE SAME TIRES (Nitto NT01 275-305/35R18). But it is not only about lap times. It is also how the car drives and feels, and in that respect, the driving experience in my M4cs is quite different than it was in my previous M4. I am sure it will be the same for the M2cs owners for lap times as well as for driving experience. Just like the M4cs, the M2cs is not meant for everyone. It is meant for those that are seeking a dual use practical daily driver and track toy that is slightly more focused towards track use than the base car. Just like the M4cs, the M2cs will be overpriced from an MSRP standpoint. But the real "out the door" price increment over an M2C will be more than worth it for to those that the M2cs appeals to.
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09-19-2019, 06:58 PM | #72 |
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As a CS owner, you should know better...
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09-19-2019, 07:35 PM | #73 |
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About carbon ceramic brakes in general: last Spring a Porsche tech rep sparked controversy:
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09-19-2019, 07:51 PM | #74 | |
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There are so many myths around the performance benefits of CCB.
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09-19-2019, 07:59 PM | #75 |
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@CanAutM3 is correct about CCB not improving lap time. It's all about consistency in repeated time attacks.
And 30C/50F ambient temp difference would work in the Competition's favor, though from trap speed the CS is still noticeably stronger. The 'normal' expectation for the CS is to be 10s quicker around the ring, a 7-8min power demanding track, which translate to 1.5s/min of performance improvement, or 3s with a 2 min track like this. In the end, It's not a back to back test. And the magazine people themselves are impressed. So let's refrain from making uneducated conclusions.
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09-19-2019, 08:45 PM | #76 | |
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don't read this. too late...
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09-19-2019, 09:08 PM | #77 |
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Haha there were performance enhancements to the engine and suspension between the M3 ZCP and CS. I only read the addition of adaptive suspension and more power here.
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09-19-2019, 09:22 PM | #78 | |
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I would even say that the improvements in weight reduction, power and supension of the M2cs over the M2C are more substantial than the improvements of the M3cs over the M3CP.
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09-19-2019, 09:28 PM | #79 | |
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09-19-2019, 09:51 PM | #80 | |
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Last edited by hellrotm; 09-19-2019 at 10:01 PM.. |
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09-19-2019, 10:00 PM | #81 | |
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M2CS as tested in this article with DCT and CCB, add another $11k+. Over $90,000. |
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09-19-2019, 10:22 PM | #82 | |
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The verdict on the performance delta is still unclear. The time for the M2C on PSS were set in 1 degree Celsius (not 30 as you have stated) which would be unfavourable to the M2C |
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09-19-2019, 10:54 PM | #83 | |
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Cold temp helps the M2C with more engine power, while not affecting much on the grip with PSS properly warmed up, which Auto Sport people made sure of. On the other end, S55, like any other engine, loses a significant amount of power over a 30C/50F ambient temp increase. My personal experience - on Shanghai F1 circuit, exiting turn 13 into 1.3km long straight, the M4 ZCP traps 260+kph in winter (0~10C) and only 240+kph in summer (35C). 20kph is worth 30~40hp or so. I would agree, Cup2 should be worth 1s or more at Hockenheim GP. But I'm inclined to believing the M2 CS would be still 1.5s quicker in a back to back test, given the same tire.
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09-20-2019, 12:55 AM | #84 |
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I don't know why you are laughing? The instrumented numbers tell this story. The car brakes better and accelerates faster, while it actually had a worse slalom result despite Cup 2 tires. I am sure it's just margin of error on that, though.
It is an M2C + tune + brake upgrade (optional) + M performance parts and M4 adaptive dampers. There is nothing wrong with that, but that's what it is. I'm not a naysayer, just calling it like it is. It is an incremental increase in performance for a larger increase in price. You know, there is a reason I can get an M4 CS for a massive discount, right? That does NOT mean it isn't a good car. I just don't think it's priced very well compared to the competition. The cost difference between M2C and M2CS will probably be as much as the cost difference between M240i and M2C, except you are further on the diminishing returns part of the curve. Again, there is no doubt this is the best M2 you can buy, but it's just another example of BMWs strategy to increase profit margin and reduce R&D costs with these "halo" models. I would be excited if they didn't spend their money on carbon fiber body panels that do almost nothing for performance over something like magnetorheological dampers or wider fenders to allow for more tire on a car that is desperately starved for traction even with an N55 engine. I don't own M2 or M2C, so I'm not a salty owner, just trying to be objective about it. Last edited by chris719; 09-20-2019 at 01:09 AM.. |
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09-20-2019, 01:13 AM | #85 | |
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You are forgetting one important variable though. The brake pads. These cars are tested with stock pads from BMW. I can tell you from personal experience that the stock pads on CCB cars just hold up better than the pads that come on the blue brakes (not sure about 2NH - but there are lots of complaints about the stock pads on the street, even). So, if you don't replace your pads with track pads, the CCBs can actually perform better. This isn't a real world example, because we all know not to track a car with street pads, but it IS what the magazines do. CCB calipers also have titanium pistons. It is entirely possible that they brake better over a lap given stock pads and the increased thermal resistance to the fluid. Do not forget that the CCB rotors weigh a LOT less than the 2NH brakes. That is unsprung weight also, as I am sure you are aware. Last edited by chris719; 09-20-2019 at 01:19 AM.. |
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09-20-2019, 01:32 AM | #86 | |
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Your experience in terminal speed reduction at the Shanghai track during a hot day would not only be temperature related. Humidity and atmospheric pressure are also factors to consider. I speculate that the difference between the two would be around 1 second. Can't wait for someone to compare the two on the same day with the same transmission and same tyres. Last edited by Karmic Man; 09-20-2019 at 01:43 AM.. |
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09-20-2019, 02:47 AM | #87 | |
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They tested both cars on Hockenheim GP (4.57km long).... This layout is 2kms longer.... So the rest of your comment is a bit...oh well... And come to think of it, with a tarmac temperature of only 1 degree Celsius (33.8 F) when they tested M2 Comp how on earth could driver Gebhardt get heat into those PSS tyres and get that fantastic laptime in the first place? I'd opt for Pilot Alpin wintertyres in those temperatures LOL. Think about it. Anyway: The black layout is the Short Layout....the grey one including the black one where they did this test, GP Layout. Cheers Robin Last edited by Robin_NL; 09-20-2019 at 02:52 AM.. |
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09-20-2019, 05:02 AM | #88 | ||
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As indicated in the data sheet:
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