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      05-24-2019, 01:49 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by eeyang92 View Post
Honestly, they'd be crazy if they didn't release a manual... the M2 has a 50% MT take rate in the US.
Well that's what most people thought including myself as well before the final details of the M3CS were released with no 6MT. I'd probably be driving one if it did.
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      05-24-2019, 01:51 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
Serious question, have you even ever driven a M240i?

It's a fantastic car, power is up there with the M2C

Handling, Suspension, LSD on M2C is what differentiates it the most from M240i. The M-Perf stuff ain't half as good as the M2's, but it's still a big upgrade.

I'd tentatively consider a fully M-Perf specc'd M240i with adaptive suspensions and AWD over a 6MT M2. It's a real hidden gem!
No honestly I've never driven one. But how does this pertain to the point I'm trying to make with you about your original post?
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      05-24-2019, 04:27 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I don't believe we will see an M2cs hit the market before the current M4 EOP. IMO, the M2cs is perfect candidate to fill the void between the F8X EOP and G8X SOP.
But where has that been confirmed by BMW?

I thought SCOTT26 said it would be revealed this year
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      05-24-2019, 06:50 PM   #246
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Anyone want to guess the weight savings, I've heard the M3CS is 110 pounds lighter. We have the advantage of adding the carbon roof and likely the Li-ion battery (30 pounds). I'm thinking 150 pounds savings is likely if the M3CS really is 110 pounds lighter.
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      05-24-2019, 10:00 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by //M View Post
Anyone want to guess the weight savings, I've heard the M3CS is 110 pounds lighter. We have the advantage of adding the carbon roof and likely the Li-ion battery (30 pounds). I'm thinking 150 pounds savings is likely if the M3CS really is 110 pounds lighter.
110lb lighter than what?

That figure is quite elusive and a marketing gimmick IMO. If the M4cs is 65lb lighter than a comparably equipped M4 competition pack, it is impossible for the M3cs to be that much lighter because it has less weight reduction elements and is equipped with the heavier HK sound system.
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      05-25-2019, 08:27 AM   #248
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Saw this on CarBuzz
Now I am heavily thinking switching from G80 to M2CS if I can get one

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      05-25-2019, 01:28 PM   #249
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Saw this on CarBuzz
Now I am heavily thinking switching from G80 to M2CS if I can get one
Those are May 2019 pictures of the M2 CS prototype with license plate "M CI 1207" (Nürburgring test sessions). It's the prototype that also featured in the April 2019 update (see here).

At first glance, I discern no exterior changes (except for the four antennas mounted on the windscreen for collecting test data).

For more pictures: see for example here, here, here and here.
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      05-25-2019, 02:57 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Those are May 2019 pictures of the M2 CS prototype with license plate "M CI 1207" (Nürburgring test sessions). It's the prototype that also featured in the April 2019 update (see here).

At first glance, I discern no exterior changes (except for the four antennas mounted on the windscreen for collecting test data).

For more pictures: see for example here, here, here and here.
In the first photo it doesn't appear to be running the lightweight wheels. Really hoping my slot for this car remains legit, then hoping this car is less than 80k.

Edit: or the 3rd photo.
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      05-25-2019, 03:36 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
In the first photo it doesn't appear to be running the lightweight wheels. Really hoping my slot for this car remains legit, then hoping this car is less than 80k.
Edit: or the 3rd photo.
Those are the 'regular' 437M wheels.

But, as told in the past and now also confirmed in the first post of this thread, the M2 CS gets 19" 763M wheels.
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      05-25-2019, 04:40 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
Hard to be a hater when the CS offers nothing a regular Comp owner cant upgrade to
1. Tune: BM3 -> Official BMW M2CS MAP. Same engine, no issues. ✓
2. Adaptive Suspensions: KW HAS Kit. Air Suspension that is electronically adjustable. ✓
3. All of the rest: M-Performance Catalog ✓
Only haters in the forum are OG M2 owners. Can't change engine and a lot of money on cosmetics (seats, mirrors etc.) that otherwise come base on the Comp.
The M2 CS has been under development since quite some time now. BMW M performed M2 CS winter test sessions in Arjeplog (Sweden) (near the Arctic circle) and is performing M2 CS test sessions at the Nürburgring (Germany) and elsewhere. So we may reasonably assume that there is more going on than quickly slapping on some 'plug & play' stuff and calling it a day.

Some earlier considerations:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM33 View Post
The 445 hp was a big surprise as most were only expecting a small 10 hp increase and not a 40 hp increase (405 to 445hp)
Keep in mind the EOP (end of production) timing of the F80 M3 / F82 M4 + the S55 engine also moving towards the end of its life-cycle. As we know, the S55 engine was detuned to 410hp for the M2 Competition, but that was still a 40hp power bump compared to the N55 engine of the original M2 (370hp). And successful sales and reception of the M2 and M2 Competition + M Performance Parts prove that an interesting niche market exists for BMW M.

As the stars are (favorably) lined up this way in 2019/2020, the M2 CS can be allowed more freedom privileges than usual in the BMW M pecking order (the "don't step over its bigger brother's toes" philosophy perfected by car manufacturers): 450hp S55 = a 40hp power bump compared to the 410hp S55 M2 Competition and an 80hp power bump compared to the 370hp N55 M2. And M2 CS production will inevitably be limited in time as the F87 gets closer to EOP (production of as many as the production facility and production time allows, so no preset "1 of x" limited production figure).

The M3 CS and M4 CS price setting was steep, though the power bump was limited. The power bump for the M2 CS is more significant. And some goodies are thrown into the mix that were previously (made) unavailable from factory (CF roof, Adaptive M Suspension, CCBs, CF splitter, CF spoiler, 763M wheels, etc.), bringing 'aftermarket' to 'the market' (stock from factory). So we may expect BMW to also charge a considerable CS premium for the CS badge on the M2 CS. I expect the M2 CS to sell better than the M3 CS and M4 CS. BMW can allow itself to charge M3/M4 money for it.

That's my take on it.
About the recurring OG M2 'sour grapes' assumption: "The absolute heart of loyalty is to value those people who tell you the truth, not just those people who tell you what you want to hear. In fact, you should value them most. Because they have paid you the compliment of leveling with you and assuming you can handle it." (Pat Summitt).

Like it or not, but the M2 CS is on its way to righteously take the leadership of the M2 wolfpack and - mark my words - to go down petrolhead history books as a 'future classic'. But all that should by no means spoil the joy of driving our cars now or in the future. We're all petrolheads over here and "Let me not to the marriage of true minds. Admit impediments." (W.S. - S. 116).

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      05-25-2019, 10:26 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The M2 CS has been under development since quite some time now. BMW M performed M2 CS winter test sessions in Arjeplog (Sweden) (near the Arctic circle) and is performing M2 CS test sessions at the Nürburgring (Germany) and elsewhere. So we may reasonably assume that there is more going on than quickly slapping on some 'plug & play' stuff and calling it a day.

Like it or not, but the M2 CS is on its way to righteously take the leadership of the M2 wolfpack and - mark my words - to go down petrolhead history books as a 'future classic'. But all that should by no means spoil the joy of driving our cars now or in the future. We're all petrolheads over here and "Let me not to the marriage of true minds. Admit impediments." (W.S. - S. 116).

Attachment 2062606
My opinion is that M2 CS was finished long time ago already. Those periodically 'flirting' and so called 'spy pictures' is purely BMW's tool to build anticipation. There is very little to be tested there.

The no stepping over its big brother's toe is gone? Explain why M2 CS shouldn't have the M3/4 CS' 460ps tune then.

What's happening here is that while the CS awaits its time to show (remember timing is everything?), BMW M division just takes the advantage to keep touting as much as they can about how they're building enthusiasts' cars.

No matter how successful the M2 and M2C as a product are viewed BMW internally, the CS development will never be allowed to have any serious kind of investment. Do only whatever is available from the parts bin and make sure of selling all of them at good profit, are likely what they're told in the first place and all along.

It's also a little project to keep the 2er refreshed for its last two model years at the critical time when the entire F platform is being phased out.

If the CS happens to be a good car even under those rules, find then. But a "future classic" without even a proper amount of R&D and true exclusiveness behind it? Look at every gen of 911 GTS, are they qualified as 'classic'? Mind you, 911 gts, albeit a parts bin special too, is a tremendous value compared to its base car, unlike the recent M variants.
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      05-25-2019, 11:01 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
My opinion is that M2 CS was finished long time ago already. Those periodically 'flirting' and so called 'spy pictures' is purely BMW's tool to build anticipation. There is very little to be tested there.

The no stepping over its big brother's toe is gone? Explain why M2 CS shouldn't have the M3/4 CS' 460ps tune then.

What's happening here is that while the CS awaits its time to show (remember timing is everything?), BMW M division just takes the advantage to keep touting as much as they can about how they're building enthusiasts' cars.

No matter how successful the M2 and M2C as a product are viewed BMW internally, the CS development will never be allowed to have any serious kind of investment. Do only whatever is available from the parts bin and make sure of selling all of them at good profit, are likely what they're told in the first place and all along.

It's also a little project to keep the 2er refreshed for its last two model years at the critical time when the entire F platform is being phased out.

If the CS happens to be a good car even under those rules, find then. But a "future classic" without even a proper amount of R&D and true exclusiveness behind it? Look at every gen of 911 GTS and find out for yourself.
I still believe that BMW can put this car in the 7:30s around the ring. That's not mind blowing, but would be substantial for BMW. They would be making a statement that their specialty vehicles aren't confined to a pecking order. And that they can put a 4 seat car in the thick of some good competition.

Porsche sets the bar, and really only competes with themselves. Every year the new model bests the older model. It doesn't have to best it by much because there no one else in the competition.

I've lost focus on what I was trying to accomplish with this post.
So I'm just go so typing.
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      05-26-2019, 01:42 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The M2 CS has been under development since quite some time now. BMW M performed M2 CS winter test sessions in Arjeplog (Sweden) (near the Arctic circle) and is performing M2 CS test sessions at the Nürburgring (Germany) and elsewhere. So we may reasonably assume that there is more going on than quickly slapping on some 'plug & play' stuff and calling it a day.

Like it or not, but the M2 CS is on its way to righteously take the leadership of the M2 wolfpack and - mark my words - to go down petrolhead history books as a 'future classic'. But all that should by no means spoil the joy of driving our cars now or in the future. We're all petrolheads over here and "Let me not to the marriage of true minds. Admit impediments." (W.S. - S. 116).

Attachment 2062606
My opinion is that M2 CS was finished long time ago already. Those periodically 'flirting' and so called 'spy pictures' is purely BMW's tool to build anticipation. There is very little to be tested there.

The no stepping over its big brother's toe is gone? Explain why M2 CS shouldn't have the M3/4 CS' 460ps tune then.

What's happening here is that while the CS awaits its time to show (remember timing is everything?), BMW M division just takes the advantage to keep touting as much as they can about how they're building enthusiasts' cars.

No matter how successful the M2 and M2C as a product are viewed BMW internally, the CS development will never be allowed to have any serious kind of investment. Do only whatever is available from the parts bin and make sure of selling all of them at good profit, are likely what they're told in the first place and all along.

It's also a little project to keep the 2er refreshed for its last two model years at the critical time when the entire F platform is being phased out.

If the CS happens to be a good car even under those rules, find then. But a "future classic" without even a proper amount of R&D and true exclusiveness behind it? Look at every gen of 911 GTS, are they qualified as 'classic'? Mind you, 911 gts, albeit a parts bin special too, is a tremendous value compared to its base car, unlike the recent M variants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
My opinion is that M2 CS was finished long time ago already. Those periodically 'flirting' and so called 'spy pictures' is purely BMW's tool to build anticipation. There is very little to be tested there.

The no stepping over its big brother's toe is gone? Explain why M2 CS shouldn't have the M3/4 CS' 460ps tune then.

What's happening here is that while the CS awaits its time to show (remember timing is everything?), BMW M division just takes the advantage to keep touting as much as they can about how they're building enthusiasts' cars.

No matter how successful the M2 and M2C as a product are viewed BMW internally, the CS development will never be allowed to have any serious kind of investment. Do only whatever is available from the parts bin and make sure of selling all of them at good profit, are likely what they're told in the first place and all along.

It's also a little project to keep the 2er refreshed for its last two model years at the critical time when the entire F platform is being phased out.

If the CS happens to be a good car even under those rules, find then. But a "future classic" without even a proper amount of R&D and true exclusiveness behind it? Look at every gen of 911 GTS and find out for yourself.
I still believe that BMW can put this car in the 7:30s around the ring. That's not mind blowing, but would be substantial for BMW. They would be making a statement that their specialty vehicles aren't confined to a pecking order. And that they can put a 4 seat car in the thick of some good competition.

Porsche sets the bar, and really only competes with themselves. Every year the new model bests the older model. It doesn't have to best it by much because there no one else in the competition.

I've lost focus on what I was trying to accomplish with this post.
So I'm just go so typing.

Having tracked both a base M3, competition M3, and now my M3 CS, I can with all honesty say that the CS is not merely just a parts bin raid. The changes made dramatically improved the car and a lot of thought and considerations were made to improve the handling characteristics. If we were to use ring times as some kind of scale, the M3 CS did it in 7:38. The base M4 was 7:52. That tells me the M2 CS will be the best performing M2 yet. It's a bit perplexing that improvement with each version would be scoffed at merely to protect the egos of those who own the older models. As adults we should already be accustomed to the cold hard truth that there is always a car that's faster and better.
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      05-26-2019, 03:08 AM   #256
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I don't understand all of the CS bashing. It never ends. The narrative opposing the CS can be summarized as:

"I've never driven an M2/M3 CS, but I try to convince others and more importantly, myself, that the CS is a bust because I can get the same a, b, and c mods for $x amount less."
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      05-26-2019, 04:52 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mac View Post
I don't understand all of the CS bashing. It never ends. The narrative opposing the CS can be summarized as:

"I've never driven an M2/M3 CS, but I try to convince others and more importantly, myself, that the CS is a bust because I can get the same a, b, and c mods for $x amount less."


Some people can't accept or understand that you can't stop progress..

As a vehicle's model evolve and the manufacturer hone their original work; naturally, every iteration or revision would equal an improvement or else what's the point of purchasing it, from a consumer standpoint.

I get why some folks need to downplay the improvements, as an implicit way of protecting their perceived investment. It's human nature, as annoying as it is.

I, for one, embrace and welcome the improvements, to what is the last of ICM and manual option before BMW transit to all-electric, as we're slowly witnessing the end of an era.

Just wish I have the privilege to get one because at 2,200 units, it's going the take some serious string-pulling to get one of those CS Golden Ticket.
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      05-26-2019, 06:46 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The M2 CS has been under development since quite some time now. BMW M performed M2 CS winter test sessions in Arjeplog (Sweden) (near the Arctic circle) and is performing M2 CS test sessions at the Nürburgring (Germany) and elsewhere. So we may reasonably assume that there is more going on than quickly slapping on some 'plug & play' stuff and calling it a day.

Attachment 2062606
Pfff, BMW Marketing has been absolutely amazing these last years. That's the real issue.

They might add one or two trivial things and then pay the reviewers to praise it like it's the best car ever.

Unless they change some internals in the engine (highly unlikely) or give it hydraulic steering the only 'unique' component of the M2CS that will be hard (not even that hard) to retrofit will be the adaptive suspension.

E46 M3 CSL had a gorgeous carbon intake that was hard to retrofit on the standard E46 M3 (splicing MAF sensor, Alpha-N tune etc.). Just this was enough to warrant the hype behind it.

What's the unique M2CS value proposition? Adaptive Suspension?

The most annoying part of this thread is that anyone that criticizes the M2CS is labelled as a 'Hater'. Even if I was the Sultan of Brunei, I wouldn't be too interested in the M2CS. I genuinely see nothing of value that the M2C doesn't offer. I don't even care about the tune. N55 M2 engine was disappointing over 100km/h, S55 in the M2 is the right amount of power and you really don't need more for such a short wheel base car. M2CS is a superior car to the M2C, 100% but it's a minor upgrade to a M2C. The bulk of the premium spent over the M2C msrp is for the M-Performance stuff, this is just a fact. You'll tell me I'm only criticizing the M2CS to defend my own purchase but that wouldn't be true. Under the same logic, I could easily point out that the bulk of people praising the M2CS are OG M2 owners and it almost feels like they are hyping it up out of pettiness to make M2C feel bad like they did when their car wasn't the latest model anymore.

This said, I honestly don't see any variant of the M2 hold as much 'collectible' value as older BMW's. I recently bought a S54 Z4 M. THIS is a 'collectors' car. Not because of limited production, not because it's the only Z4 with an M engine, No! Because the car has so much goddamn soul and the connection you feel with it when driving is absolutely unique. Every new BMW just fails to replicate this. Feels like you're driving in a video game most of the time. M2 CS will just be another overly marketed M car with fake exhaust noise, artificial stiffness to the steering and a rubber dildo as a gear knob. Desirability is really not defined by limited production numbers. Besides, at the rate of new BMW models being produced each year, the M2CS will in the likeliest of cases, recession depending, be one of the MANY 'limited production' cars. As said at the beginning, Marketing at BMW is on point.

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      05-26-2019, 08:31 AM   #259
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" N55 M2 engine was disappointing over 100km/h, S55 in the M2 is the right amount of power and you really don't need more for such a short wheel base car."

M2 0-200kmh: ~16s (disappointing?)
M2C 0-200km/h: ~15s
M4CS 0-200km/h: ~13s

My guess is that the gap between the M2C and M2CS will be much more impressive than the M2-M2C gap.
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      05-26-2019, 10:06 AM   #260
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Wow this combo looks nice
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      05-26-2019, 11:45 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The M2 CS has been under development since quite some time now. BMW M performed M2 CS winter test sessions in Arjeplog (Sweden) (near the Arctic circle) and is performing M2 CS test sessions at the Nürburgring (Germany) and elsewhere. So we may reasonably assume that there is more going on than quickly slapping on some 'plug & play' stuff and calling it a day.

Attachment 2062606
Pfff, BMW Marketing has been absolutely amazing these last years. That's the real issue.

They might add one or two trivial things and then pay the reviewers to praise it like it's the best car ever.

Unless they change some internals in the engine (highly unlikely) or give it hydraulic steering the only 'unique' component of the M2CS that will be hard (not even that hard) to retrofit will be the adaptive suspension.

E46 M3 CSL had a gorgeous carbon intake that was hard to retrofit on the standard E46 M3 (splicing MAF sensor, Alpha-N tune etc.). Just this was enough to warrant the hype behind it.

What's the unique M2CS value proposition? Adaptive Suspension?

The most annoying part of this thread is that anyone that criticizes the M2CS is labelled as a 'Hater'. Even if I was the Sultan of Brunei, I wouldn't be too interested in the M2CS. I genuinely see nothing of value that the M2C doesn't offer. I don't even care about the tune. N55 M2 engine was disappointing over 100km/h, S55 in the M2 is the right amount of power and you really don't need more for such a short wheel base car. M2CS is a superior car to the M2C, 100% but it's a minor upgrade to a M2C. The bulk of the premium spent over the M2C msrp is for the M-Performance stuff, this is just a fact. You'll tell me I'm only criticizing the M2CS to defend my own purchase but that wouldn't be true. Under the same logic, I could easily point out that the bulk of people praising the M2CS are OG M2 owners and it almost feels like they are hyping it up out of pettiness to make M2C feel bad like they did when their car wasn't the latest model anymore.

This said, I honestly don't see any variant of the M2 hold as much 'collectible' value as older BMW's. I recently bought a S54 Z4 M. THIS is a 'collectors' car. Not because of limited production, not because it's the only Z4 with an M engine, No! Because the car has so much goddamn soul and the connection you feel with it when driving is absolutely unique. Every new BMW just fails to replicate this. Feels like you're driving in a video game most of the time. M2 CS will just be another overly marketed M car with fake exhaust noise, artificial stiffness to the steering and a rubber dildo as a gear knob. Desirability is really not defined by limited production numbers. Besides, at the rate of new BMW models being produced each year, the M2CS will in the likeliest of cases, recession depending, be one of the MANY 'limited production' cars. As said at the beginning, Marketing at BMW is on point.
You sound pretty sure despite not having driven it.
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      05-26-2019, 02:04 PM   #262
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Wow this combo looks nice
Wrap those in HS. Oh yeah! Feeling like the cool-aid man.
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      05-26-2019, 07:36 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
Under the same logic, I could easily point out that the bulk of people praising the M2CS are OG M2 owners and it almost feels like they are hyping it up out of pettiness to make M2C feel bad like they did when their car wasn't the latest model anymore.
Oh wow.
This right here.
The depth you went to speculating the psychology behind the comments...

While I don't think the whole "CS" is some kind of magic engine and chassis tune that transforms an existing chassis, to say that the changes are insignificant seems asinine.
I also agree that the gap between the C and CS will be much bigger comparing to the OG and C.

Remember, the main reason BMW went to the S55 is because of emissions. At the same time they slapped a Competition badge and different bumper on it to make sure it stays relevant. The performance gap (stock) was never suppose to be big.
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      05-26-2019, 11:30 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Io View Post
" N55 M2 engine was disappointing over 100km/h, S55 in the M2 is the right amount of power and you really don't need more for such a short wheel base car."

M2 0-200kmh: ~16s (disappointing?)
M2C 0-200km/h: ~15s
M4CS 0-200km/h: ~13s

My guess is that the gap between the M2C and M2CS will be much more impressive than the M2-M2C gap.
Maybe on the surface but with 500$ and a cellphone you can flash your M2C eu with the M2CS file

OG M2 need to go full FBO with a new Turbo and an aggressive Tune. All in all with HPFP limitations and more.

frank.m2 Same arguement as above. M2C is running a neutered M4 engine file but this can be unlocked on the cheap.

When M2CS will roll-out most M2C owners will be out of warranty making the flash tune a much more accessible option, rainy day fund permitting.

OG M2 also had dated interior and was limited both in color and cosmetic options (M seats, M-Mirrors, Dashboard) and relatively some tech (idrive)

Everything the M2CS has is easily retrofittable except the adaptive suspension. You're spending a 20,000$ premium for other freely accessible stuff.

Iirc with the e46 m3 csl most components you wanted to order where VIN locked. There upgrades where not a straight swap like now with the M2 CS.

I mean, say what you want but all the stuff on the M2CS is freely available on the M-Perf catalogue for the M2C. The engine is the same and through BM3 or other software you can flash tune to the CS file.

I'll wrap my car in bright pink hello kitty texture if they actually change internals or anything noteworthy beyond whats listed on the original picture in this thread.

The M2CS falls perfectly in-line with BMW's strategy of rolling out as many variants as possible in a short period of time.

In the course of 1.5 years from last delivery to first, we've had three BMW variants (OG, LCI, M2C). The way I see it, guys at BMW sat around a table and said "Okay, what can we sell now that will garner demand at the lowest cost for us?". The answer? "Let's get a M2C, give it an aggresive tune, throw-in all the M-Performance stuff so we don't need to engineer something new and let's add something new and hype it up (adaptive suspension)". The car cruising through racing rings is literally subtle marketing in it's best form.

Last edited by Dav3; 05-26-2019 at 11:42 PM..
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