[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I would like calendar year = model year, to keep it simple but they probably use a fiscal year because Americans are shallow and wants a car that's comes out next year.. :

Like the school year, it's literally tied to our agrarian-based economic history. Basically, farmers could afford a new vehicle when the harvest ended...hence the new model year in the fall. The new model year gained serious traction in the 50s, when each model year looked appreciably different from the last. Hence why you hear the term '48 Ford, '57 Chevy, '59 Cadillac, etc.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...el-years-come/

[AUSf22]

Originally Posted by F82PRETEND

Like the school year, it's literally tied to our agrarian-based economic history. Basically, farmers could afford a new vehicle when the harvest ended...hence the new model year in the fall. The new model year gained serious traction in the 50s, when each model year looked appreciably different from the last. Hence why you hear the term '48 Ford, '57 Chevy, '59 Cadillac, etc.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...el-years-come/

Makes sense now!

So even tho my VIN does not have the M letter in the VIN its still considered a MY21 US Model. Our cars here actually go by the build year, whichever year it is built is the year model it is.

[richard in NC]

I imagine the VIN requirement matching model year instead of production date is based on EPA certification, etc. So to call it a 2021 in the US, it must meet all 2021 regs. The above reason for the fall introduction for most models makes sense. I'm sure BMW has various reasons to deviate from that norm, my 2020 M2C was delivered in April '19. It definitely an L date.

[///AVM]

Gang

Over the time I've been a member on this form, and prior to taking delivery of the M2C, I heard a lot of discussion about how intrusive the BMW nannies are to many. As I understand this, in a nutshell, it pertains to traction control / e-diff.

Honestly, although I heard it and understood it, I really never gave it too much thought because (1) I have never had any perception of nanny intrusion with my 718 CGTS, and (2) I figured the M2C could not be that much different. Stated differently, despite what I consider to be highly enthusiastic driving on my part, perhaps I did not quite push things in the GTS to the extent many do in their M2C?

Well, I have come to appreciate and am really annoyed with the nannies in my M2C, particularly when accelerating out of the turns. It's this constant 'stuttering' of throttle response that drives me nuts.

The obvious solution is to disengage DSC. What I do not want to become is one of those assholes who ends up on YT after losing his ass-end and finds himself jacked in some embankment. . . you know, DSC is for pussies!

So, I'm going to have to take a step back and become familiar with the beast in MDM mode. I'm hoping MDM represents the 'sweet spot' between safe and enjoyable spirited driving? Not too keen on having to completely disengage DSC. . . time will tell.

///AVM

[JCZ5]

Let us know what you think of MDM mode, ///AVM. From what I heard it works wonders and makes you a hero!

[Fugly M3]

I drive around in my M4 in Sport Plus, Sport Plus, Sport MDM, S3 transmission mode all the time. It's my M2 button. M1 is the same except comfort steering and suspension. MDM is still fairly intrusive, but lets you have fun without killing yourself, the car or someone else. . You can get the Euro MDM coded and it is supposedly even less restrictive.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Gang

Over the time I've been a member on this form, and prior to taking delivery of the M2C, I heard a lot of discussion about how intrusive the BMW nannies are to many. As I understand this, in a nutshell, it pertains to traction control / e-diff.

Honestly, although I heard it and understood it, I really never gave it too much thought because (1) I have never had any perception of nanny intrusion with my 718 CGTS, and (2) I figured the M2C could not be that much different. Stated differently, despite what I consider to be highly enthusiastic driving on my part, perhaps I did not quite push things in the GTS to the extent many do in their M2C?

Well, I have come to appreciate and am really annoyed with the nannies in my M2C, particularly when accelerating out of the turns. It's this constant 'stuttering' of throttle response that drives me nuts.

The obvious solution is to disengage DSC. What I do not want to become is one of those assholes who ends up on YT after losing his ass-end and finds himself jacked in some embankment. . . you know, DSC is for pussies!

So, I'm going to have to take a step back and become familiar with the beast in MDM mode. I'm hoping MDM represents the 'sweet spot' between safe and enjoyable spirited driving? Not too keen on having to completely disengage DSC. . . time will tell.

///AVM

You mentioned throttle stutter when exiting turns ... this can be one of the most dangerous situations if you don't know the limits of the car and tires, and driving skill. Many folks get into oversteer and those that feel it and have quick hands can recover but many end up with snap oversteer and lose the control. It takes a good amount of time to build this relationship with Helga and understand what she likes but once you do omg she is so good!

Another point - as I was progressing from novice to advanced driving with PCCA I found that it was easier for me to control the vehicle with dsc and dtc off. I do have lsd. Even with mdm mode the computer will allow you limited slip but still provide a safety net i.e. kill throttle if Helga's ass starts to wiggle. However, I believe that even with mdm on you can end up with snap oversteer. In fact, on E90 even with dsc on you can lose it or have a split second to recover!!

I did test M2c and pushed it a tiny bit while the salesman was wondering if we will return without damage, and the handling reminded me very much of my car. That rear end wants to dance! If you are going to bang her with mdm on or all off you have to know the limits and how to recover! It is very hard to practice this on public roads.

The best way to test the car is on skidpad or a large open parking lot when it is wet. The point here is don't be affraid to turn dsc off and get a feel for what the car can or will do just make sure you have plenty of open space. I call this the pure mode!

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

The best way to test the car is on skidpad or a large open parking lot when it is wet. The point here is don't be affraid to turn dsc off and get a feel for what the car can or will do just make sure you have plenty of open space. I call this the pure mode!

I'm with Smooth. Do an advanced driving course in your own car with some skid pan work as well. I think you'll then truly understand why the M2C is considered a more "fun" street car drive than the Cayman.

[CSBM5]

Nannies have come a long way. AVM drive an E39 M5 with DSC on, and you'll quickly be reaching for that button and be forced to learn car control. Back then, they could only program it to chop the throttle and then slowly only give it back if the lateral load sensor versus steering wheel angle values agreed it was ok...which meant near never, lol. It's actually dangerous in that car if you're used to driving a pure car and depend on the throttle to get you out of a situation. But that's all 1st generation stuff...

I'm fortunate (?) to have started autocrossing and track driving long before there were such a thing as nannies, heck we didn't have ABS brakes either, so you had to learn threshold braking modulation to keep your least loaded tire from locking up. Before that I was drifting my mothers Olds 98 with its big 455 torque monster on rural dirt roads in Georgia the moment I got my license (thanks Dad for ordering LSD on that car). I say that as I at times feel like I'm too quick to recommend to people to ditch all the nannies and learn to drive the car. There is no clean advice/answer to that question.

The problem with that recommendation in today's world is that cars have so, so much power that a driver without the background can get in trouble almost instantly with DSC fully off. This fact is contraindicated by the problem that drivers who have always driven performance cars aggressively with DSC on, and especially driven and "learned' fast driving on track with DSC on, can easily learn horrible lessons, habits, that are only realized once the actual car is driven in DSC off.

Example: Corner entry on track, ~40mph. Student with a good bit of experience but all with DSC on is braking hard and beginning to trail off the brake and add steering lock to initiate entry. The nannies are going ape-shit doing one wheel braking in the rear, one wheel up front, all over the place trying to "guess" what the driver wants by analyzing all its inputs versus its algorithms. Student "learns" that he/she is "faster" by really hammering the car into the corner and adding a bunch of steering input. DSC "saves" the driver from this hamfisted input with the driver being unaware.

Now at the apex toward track-out, the driver just gets hard on the throttle without understanding that the nannies are preventing disaster.

Driver learns the racing line, learns how to mash the car into corners, measures lap times and sees "improvement", etc.

Multiply times every corner on the track. Multiply times multiple events at different tracks with DSC always on. The driver gets "really good" driving a DSC neutered car.

The problem comes when said driver is presented with DSC off. In general, if nothing is changed, a wreck is imminent. Many inputs the diver is used to doing to the car, upset the balance dramatically once DSC is off. Adding power from the apex of a 90mph sweeper becomes this driver's worst nightmare since they have zero experience managing rear wheel slip angle with throttle and weight transfer (well, also their instructor's worst nightmare too). So many of their now embedded habits are second nature, but they are completely wrong. They need to start over learning how to drive a car properly.

Sorry for the rant here, I even forgot where I was going with this treatise.

[JCZ5]

@Smooth 330i - your last point about practicing on a wet parking lot is very true. I use to do that when I was younger and people thought I was being a hooligan. Nope, just understanding my cars dynamics and how to correct oversteer when it does occur. In some European countries, new driver courses include skipad training. Too bad the US's new driver training is so basic.

CSBM5 - I agree with your analysis on track driving as well. If you're committed to track driving, never start with DSC on. Instead just take it easy and build up to your speed. The problem with most novice track drivers is they want to reach the apex of speed their first go around. However, track trying is much more methodical and scientific

[CSBM5]

I guess where I was headed in my thought train was that for a nanny assistant, the MDM mode on the M2C is actually amazingly well programmed. This is especially true on hard launches in 1st gear. With the PSS' and cool pavement, it's very difficult to manage rear grip versus throttle application since the S55 builds such huge torque so fast. In MDM mode that same launch is pretty amazingly managed by the system. Now try this on wet roads, and it's a bit more amazing at the job it does.

Similarly, when I had the M2C on the 1/2 mile wet skidpad, where DSC was of course fully off, I decided to do a few laps with MDM enabled to see how it responded. I was flabbergasted that the M2C will hold a minor drift angle on the wet pad in MDM mode - no other BMW I've ever driven would allow such a thing with any mode of DSC active....not even close. I had to be very smooth and careful to maintain the slight drift as if I slightly stepped it out too far, it reigned everything in, and I'd have to start the drift over. Interestingly, I used a slight Scandinavian flick to initiate the MDM drift too, and that actually worked which was again amazing.

Anyway, on the pad with MDM enabled, although it did allow a lot of things, I could clearly feel it muting my inputs and numbing the driving experience still. This was especially true when I tried for some maximum speed laps where with DSC off there was excellent feedback in the wheel and seat which allowed me to hold it right on the edge and manage it really nicely. MDM took that away..it was fine up until like 9/10ths and then "stuff" started happening that prevented further speed.

[///AVM]

Thank you all for the feedback . . . appreciated.

I want to reiterate that I am not a tracker. I live in a rural area with tons of twisties and enjoy spirited driving. Wringing car out to stay in the upper end of the powerband and living in 2nd and 3rd gears as I pull Gs through the twisties is my pleasure. Straight line pulls and high (track) speeds are not my pursuit.

So, I never experience 9/10ths or high speeds that trackers are after. Still, as I am pulling through and out of the twisties, I do not want to feel the nannies taking control. Again, the PTV-plus on my GTS offers the PERFECT balance of grip and slip with no sense of nanny intrusion. I have never felt compelled to disengage the traction control in my GTS, although, that might be a different story if my pursuits revolved around the track? Also, my GTS has PS4S tires, which I must believe is a factor when comparing it to my M2C with PSS tires?

Anyway, I did as suggested and switched over to MDM; it did correlate to a significant improvement. The degree of grip and slip was vastly improved . . . the nanny intrusion significantly attenuated. I was able to lay throttle down through the twisties with acceptable power delivery and rear-end play. Again, pulling through/out of a curve going 50-60 mph is drastically different than what I suspect occurs on a track at much higher speeds.

One additional comment . . . I live in PDK manual mode in my GTS. Did not find the DCT manual mode nearly as engaging or enjoyable. However, that too changed today with MDM engaged. Hard to explain, but the DCT manual mode shifts with DSC fully engaged were sluggish and very discouraging. I now suspect the nannies were sapping DCT manual mode enjoyment as well. In MDM mode you get that full ‘hard’ shift as torque is laid down.

At this point I am going to stick with MDM for a while. At this point I do not sense I will need ‘more’ but, if I do, then I will explore DSC completely disengaged.

///AVM

[akkando]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Thank you all for the feedback . . . appreciated.

I want to reiterate that I am not a tracker. I live in a rural area with tons of twisties and enjoy spirited driving. Wringing car out to stay in the upper end of the powerband and living in 2nd and 3rd gears as I pull Gs through the twisties is my pleasure. Straight line pulls and high (track) speeds are not my pursuit.

So, I never experience 9/10ths or high speeds that trackers are after. Still, as I am pulling through and out of the twisties, I do not want to feel the nannies taking control. Again, the PTV-plus on my GTS offers the PERFECT balance of grip and slip with no sense of nanny intrusion. I have never felt compelled to disengage the traction control in my GTS, although, that might be a different story if my pursuits revolved around the track? Also, my GTS has PS4S tires, which I must believe is a factor when comparing it to my M2C with PSS tires?

Anyway, I did as suggested and switched over to MDM; it did correlate to a significant improvement. The degree of grip and slip was vastly improved . . . the nanny intrusion significantly attenuated. I was able to lay throttle down through the twisties with acceptable power delivery and rear-end play. Again, pulling through/out of a curve going 50-60 mph is drastically different than what I suspect occurs on a track at much higher speeds.

One additional comment . . . I live in PDK manual mode in my GTS. Did not find the DCT manual mode nearly as engaging or enjoyable. However, that too changed today with MDM engaged. Hard to explain, but the DCT manual mode shifts with DSC fully engaged were sluggish and very discouraging. I now suspect the nannies were sapping DCT manual mode enjoyment as well. In MDM mode you get that full 'hard' shift as torque is laid down.

At this point I am going to stick with MDM for a while. At this point I do not sense I will need 'more' but, if I do, then I will explore DSC completely disengaged.

///AVM

Get euro MDM coded for like $100. It will offer an even longer leash.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by akkando

Get euro MDM coded for like $100. It will offer an even longer leash.

Thank you akkando . . . if/when I desire a little more, is that something BMW dealership can/will code?

///AVM

[AUSf22]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Thank you akkando . . . if/when I desire a little more leach, is that something BMW dealership can/will code?

///AVM

Don't think any dealership will code it in for you AVM!

I wonder why the US get a safer MDM version than the rest of us, we get the euro MDM too here.. I guess our cars are basically the euro spec aside from the OPF.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by AUSf22

Don't think any dealership will code it in for you AVM!

I wonder why the US get a safer MDM version than the rest of us, we get the euro MDM too here.. I guess our cars are basically the euro spec aside from the OPF.

LPC...lawyers per capita.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Thank you akkando . . . if/when I desire a little more leach, is that something BMW dealership can/will code?

///AVM

Highly suggest Thor M flasher the DCT flash changed my M2 and you can code better DSC, MDM.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Highly suggest Thor M flasher the DCT flash changed my M2 and you can code better DSC, MDM.

Thank you PLF

For now, I'm happy with MDM. . . that might change as I explore it more thoroughly over time.

I used to mod the piss out of my vehicles. Mostly performance mods trying to get 'more.' Things like H&R Sport Springs were phenomenal in my Macan Turbo, and a big reason why I'm leaning toward M Performance coil overs for my M2C.

Other 'hard drive' mods such ECU tunes were always a disappointment. Not only hard to 'out tune' Porsche/BMW engineers, they always seem to expose weak links in the mechanical chain.

I know a lot of BMW enthusiasts like the mod apps such as Bimmercode, however, I'm reluctant at this point to start chasing better when it comes to hard drive modifications.

My concerns may be unwarranted and I'm not saying I never will, but I'm not compelled at this point in time.

Nonetheless, I'm very appreciative for all the feedback being thrown my way.

///AVM

[///AVM]

So, I have put some serious miles on my beast today and have been exploring MDM . . . as well DSC completely off. Again, since I am not looking for 8/10 or 9/10 that some pursue in a track setting, I really do not find having DSC off an uncomfortable setting. Still, I think MDM is plenty adequate for the time being and offers some safeguard to boot.

Per previous post, MDM has provided me enjoyment not previously experienced with DCT manual mode. Here is the downside I am now experiencing . . . the beast has plenty of power, however, it really dies off after 5000 RPM. My driving pleasure involves living at top of power band in 2nd and 3rd gears; I really like to keep my engines wound. What I did not anticipate, and do not like, is fact that my beast just flattens out above 5000K RPM.

I have always kept an open ear toward the M3/4 forums but, admittedly, am nowhere near as informed about the intricacies of the two models. I do know the most recent iterations share the same S55 engine as the M2C, but I have never heard anyone complain about the top of the power band with the M3/4. Perhaps they do, and I have just missed the comments? Conversely, I HAVE heard M2C owners share similar complaint as I am expressing.

I know the M2C is slightly detuned compared to the M3/4. Does that ‘detune’ explain the flattening at the top of the powerband? Is there another explanation and, hence, workaround that does not entail an aftermarket tune? For example, will BMW mechanics upload the M3/4 tune to the M2C? Is that even a good idea, given the different chassis and associated dynamics?

Annoying as hell that I have some 2500 RPMs to redline that are not being fulfilled. . . the part of the powerband I like to live during my spirited driving.

///AVM

[Gizmo 335i]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

So, Annoying as hell that I have some 2500 RPMs to redline that are not being fulfilled. . . the part of the powerband I like to live during my spirited driving.

///AVM

A tune will cure that instantly. Even a mild stage 1 with warranty will do (Carbahn or Dinan).

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Gizmo 335i

A tune will cure that instantly. Even a mild stage 1 with warranty will do (Carbahn or Dinan).

Thank you Gizmo

I am not necessarily after more hp/torque, just how it's delivered.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the M3/4 delivers only some 30 more hp and the same torque, yet I have not heard of similar flattening off from 5000 RPM to redline with the M3/4?

As per above, is it possible or even advisable to get an M3/4 tune in the M2C?

Also, for the record, DCT automatic mode does a superb job in Sport Plus . . . if I cannot get any juice from 5000 RPM to redline using DCT manual mode, I will likely just resort to DCT automatic mode.

///AVM

[///AVM]

One more comment pertaining to the M2C acoustic output, subjective as it may be. . .

NA acoustic output is the holy grail most everyone is after, but is not happening with any turbo, S55 or otherwise.

After owning several turbo vehicles I have come to the conclusion that the most appealing 'sound' actually derives from the engine itself; not the exhaust. For example, turbo spooling and the whine of a wound engine.

The wound S55 engine actually sounds pretty fantastic in my opinion. Better than the wail of a 981 GT4 or exhaust roar of the Shelby GT 350? No way!

Better than my 718 CGTS? Honestly, two completely different acoustic experiences related to the engines themselves, as well as their location in the chassis. I am not going to say one is better than the other. Rather, that I thoroughly enjoy both in their wrung-out states, and that both suit their respective chassis much better than given credit . . . at least in my opinion.

///AVM