[Artemis]

M2 CS future resale value: wake up and smell the coffee...

"While some debate will inevitably continue as to the merits of the BMW M3 and M4 CS, there's less equivocation around the price: they were too expensive. The tweaks that were employed over the contemporary Competition cars were certainly worthwhile, although they could never fully justify the premium for the many thousands asked over them."
(PH - Jan 27, 2020 - https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-spotted/41716)

[medphysdave]

I'm curious at what price folks in other countries would think it's a buy. In the US $83.6. That would be €76k and £66.4k. I'm guessing that if folks in other countries could get it for this price they would be ecstatic. Our taxes are not quite as heavy and vary by state, but assume another 10%.

And the argument that folks in other countries make more money due to the money conversion is not necessarily true. My field is much less lucrative in Europe when compared to US.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by Artemis

M2 CS future resale value: wake up and smell the coffee...

"While some debate will inevitably continue as to the merits of the BMW M3 and M4 CS, there's less equivocation around the price: they were too expensive. The tweaks that were employed over the contemporary Competition cars were certainly worthwhile, although they could never fully justify the premium for the many thousands asked over them."
(PH - Jan 27, 2020 - https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-spotted/41716)

As a counterpoint of using the M4's as a comparison though. In the US here's a comparison on used market versus new for the M2 and M4:

2017 M2 used market center value: 42K, new base MSRP - 53k
2017 M4 used market center value: 49K, new base MSRP - 67k
source: cargurus.com

Keep in mind too that the M4 optioned up higher as well, so the depreciation rates were much higher, AND the M2 deals with the fact that the competition is a more desirable model etc and still retains it's value very well - the M4 facing nearly twice the depreciation in the same time period.

This doesn't mean the CS will be some depreciation immune vehicle, but it goes back to my earlier point in the thread about there appearing to be more of a sweet spot for BMW performance vehicles below 100K.

[Artemis]

Maybe you recall that BMW Germany allocated 131 M2 CS cars for Belgium & Luxemburg. The car can be ordered since the preview presentation in September. During official release early November was announced that most slots were already reserved and the YouTuber who interviewed BMW Belux recommended to rush to your dealer if you still wanted to get hold of one.

Spool the M2 CS video 'fast forward' to today: translation of a Facebook message posted today (Jan 27) by a Belgian BMW M dealer:
"Still a couple of the exclusive BMW M2 CS can be ordered in Belgium.
Don't wait too long and come configure it still today in our showroom."

Despite M2 CS official release, low quantity, discounts offered, high desirability and a considerable amount of potential customers, all 131 cars have not been spoken for yet. Hm, what could possibly be the problem ? Any idea ? And what could that forecast for future value ?

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

As a counterpoint of using the M4's as a comparison though. In the US here's a comparison on used market versus new for the M2 and M4:

2017 M2 used market center value: 42K, new base MSRP - 53k
2017 M4 used market center value: 49K, new base MSRP - 67k
source: cargurus.com

Keep in mind too that the M4 optioned up higher as well, so the depreciation rates were much higher, AND the M2 deals with the fact that the competition is a more desirable model etc and still retains it's value very well - the M4 facing nearly twice the depreciation in the same time period.

This doesn't mean the CS will be some depreciation immune vehicle, but it goes back to my earlier point in the thread about there appearing to be more of a sweet spot for BMW performance vehicles below 100K.

What's a 2018 M2 DCT worth with 12k miles? Excellent condition.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Maybe you recall that BMW Germany allocated 131 M2 CS cars for Belgium & Luxemburg. The car can be ordered since the preview presentation in September. During official release early November was announced that most slots were already reserved and the YouTuber who interviewed BMW Belux recommended to rush to your dealer if you still wanted to get hold of one.

Spool the M2 CS video 'fast forward' to today: translation of a Facebook message posted today (Jan 27) by a Belgian BMW M dealer:
"Still a couple of the exclusive BMW M2 CS can be ordered in Belgium.
Don't wait too long and come configure it still today in our showroom."

Despite M2 CS official release, low quantity, discounts offered, high desirability and a considerable amount of potential customers, all 131 cars have not been spoken for yet. Hm, what could possibly be the problem ? Any idea ? And what could that forecast for future value ?

You are absolutely right about supply and demand there. Trying not to be overly blunt sounding as I totally get and agree with what you are saying given what you are seeing, but you seem to want to convey the situation you have in Belgium as universal to the rest of the world. In the US pricing at the dealers isn't even consistent city to city let alone state to state. There's some reasonable ability to buy from dealers out of state and do courtesy delivery, but often buyers don't do so. While I can get a car at MSRP near me, if I go 200 miles south I can get it below MSRP. Other states it's above MSRP for a desirable model. It all varies. Part of my point here is you've already said that you can get a 2020 M2C at 20+% off MSRP... that's BELOW the used price of a 2018 M2 in the US.... So your situation in Belgium around the CS is just likely not the same as it will be for some in other countries as it appears to be different on the M2C already. What some of us see in the US will also not be what happens for others around the world. Each market will respond a little different, and some may respond very differently!

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by RPM33

What's a 2018 M2 DCT worth with 12k miles? Excellent condition.

North of 47K. I loaded in the transmission and some assumped options and it was about 47,800 retail. Without options and base mileage the 2018 was centered at 46K.

[Pol]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

You are absolutely right about supply and demand there. Trying not to be overly blunt sounding as I totally get and agree with what you are saying given what you are seeing, but you seem to want to convey the situation you have in Belgium as universal to the rest of the world. In the US pricing at the dealers isn't even consistent city to city let alone state to state. There's some reasonable ability to buy from dealers out of state and do courtesy delivery, but often buyers don't do so. While I can get a car at MSRP near me, if I go 200 miles south I can get it below MSRP. Other states it's above MSRP for a desirable model. It all varies. Part of my point here is you've already said that you can get a 2020 M2C at 20+% off MSRP... that's BELOW the used price of a 2018 M2 in the US.... So your situation in Belgium around the CS is just likely not the same as it will be for some in other countries as it appears to be different on the M2C already. What some of us see in the US will also not be what happens for others around the world. Each market will respond a little different, and some may respond very differently!

Some 60 km from Belgium, in the Netherlands, the price of a CS without options = 138.217€.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by Pol

Some 60 km from Belgium, in the Netherlands, the price of a CS without options = 138.217€.

Question, because I have NO idea how it works - if Belgium has these extra allocations that Artemis is saying will be sold at discount, what prevents someone in the Netherlands from buying one there and doing an import/border transport of it? Would that work out to being cheaper or does EU stuff prevent that?

[medphysdave]

I can definitely see how our group commentary on pricing may not be apples to apples due to our different regions. It's still very expensive in the US, but €138k is $152k. That's insane. I can easily see why some might not just say no, but hell no. Are these prices for all autos in general, or just some makes? I'm now fascinated by this.

[AlpsRider]

They'll pay more for every other car as well so it's all relative really.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I can definitely see how our group commentary on pricing may not be apples to apples due to our different regions. It's still very expensive in the US, but €138k is $152k. That's insane. I can easily see why some might not just say no, but hell no. Are these prices for all autos in general, or just some makes? I'm now fascinated by this.

Indeed, very interesting! Is it consistent for every car like Alpsrider implied, or is there much stepping or variance. The Cayman/718 variants may be an interesting comparison set.

[Pol]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Question, because I have NO idea how it works - if Belgium has these extra allocations that Artemis is saying will be sold at discount, what prevents someone in the Netherlands from buying one there and doing an import/border transport of it? Would that work out to being cheaper or does EU stuff prevent that?

Importing is not a solution.Taxes would be applied immediately as they have different license plates and are obliged to register the vehicle in their own country.
Price CS without taxes and options in Belgiuim : 79.752€ ; Price without taxes and options in the Netherlands : 80.150€. Small difference, All the rest are taxes.
Price with taxes without options in Belgium : 96.500 : In the Netherlands: 138.217€.

[medphysdave]

So what are people supposed to drive in the Netherlands if they want something affordable? Electric bike?

[2020M2Competition]

Originally Posted by Artemis

M2 CS future resale value: wake up and smell the coffee...

"While some debate will inevitably continue as to the merits of the BMW M3 and M4 CS, there's less equivocation around the price: they were too expensive. The tweaks that were employed over the contemporary Competition cars were certainly worthwhile, although they could never fully justify the premium for the many thousands asked over them."
(PH - Jan 27, 2020 - https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-spotted/41716)

I do think that the M2CS has a few extra things going for it which could make it easier to justify the price premium and potentially hold it's value better than the M3CS and M4CS

Factory CF roof (not available on the M2C and standard on the M3C and M4C)
Factory Merino leather (not available on the M2C and standard on the M3C and M4C)
Factory Adaptive Suspension (not available on the M2C and standard on the M3C and M4C)
Factory CCB option (not available on the M2C, but available on the M3C and M4C)
Lower starting base price than the M3CS or M4CS (more people will be able to afford to buy one)
Choice of 6 speed manual or DCT (M3CS and M4CS were DCT only)

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Pol

Price with taxes without options in Belgium: 96.500 €

"In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Actually, there are a couple more taxes to be added for Belgium (calculated with this taxes calculator):

• BMW M2 CS (6MT) (238 g CO2/km): base price VAT included - no options: 96.500 € (79.752,07 € + 21% VAT)
  • Brussels: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 102.295,60 €
  • Wallonia: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | one-time ecobonus-malus: 1.500 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 103.795,60 €
  • Flanders: one-time registration road tax: 8.614,48 € | annual road tax: 1.004,64 € = 106.119,12 €
• BMW M2 CS (M-DCT) (219 g CO2/km): base price VAT included - no options except for M-DCT: 100.570 € (83.115,70 € + 21% VAT)
  • Brussels: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 106.365,60 €
  • Wallonia: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | one-time ecobonus-malus: 1.000 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 107.365,60 €
  • Flanders: one-time registration road tax: 5.604,94 € | annual road tax: 956,84 € = 107.131,78 €

• BMW M2 Competition (6MT) (227 g CO2/km): base price VAT included - no options: 64.950 € (53.677,69 € + 21% VAT)
  • Brussels: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 70.745,60 €
  • Wallonia: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | one-time ecobonus-malus: 1.200 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 71.945,60 €
  • Flanders: one-time registration road tax: 6.741,75 € | annual road tax: 976,96 € = 72.668,71 €
• BMW M2 Competition (M-DCT) (209 g CO2/km): base price VAT included - no options except for M-DCT: 69.020 € (57.041,33 € + 21% VAT)
  • Brussels: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 74.815,60 €
  • Wallonia: one-time registration road tax: 4.957 € | one-time ecobonus-malus: 700 € | annual road tax: 838,60 € = 75.515,60 €
  • Flanders: one-time registration road tax: 4.413,61 € | annual road tax: 931,68 € = 74.365,29 €

Remember that all M2C metallic colors (BSM, LBB, HS and SO) and M2 CS metallic colors (BSM, HS and MB) are an option worldwide. Only the non-metallic color Alpine White is included in the M2C and M2 CS base price. Hence, if you spec any other color than AW, 820 EUR (677,69 EUR + VAT) is added in Belgium.

Add 30 € (one-time) for the regular license plate. 1.000 € (one-time) for a personalized license plate (if the combination is authorized by the State authorities).

If the car is registered by a (management) company, the company director also gets annually taxed (personal income taxes) for the benefit of company car use ("avantage toute nature").

A price exceeding 100K € (taxes included) for a BMW 2-series: you think again prior to signing the order and try to negotiate a double-digit % discount.

[sdhotwn]

These Euro taxes are pretty eye opening. I will not complain at all now when I have to pay the 5.5% sales tax, which is my only tax over the ~$150 annual license plate registration for buying the car.

[Pol]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

So what are people supposed to drive in the Netherlands if they want something affordable? Electric bike?

Indeed, a bike...

[medphysdave]

Well, this might answer the US time frame. June 2020

FUTURA 2000, who is known for his mastery of colour, concentric forms, and kinetic composition, will create three exclusive and unique versions of the BMW M2 Competition (combined fuel consumption: 10.0 l/100 km; combined CO2 emissions: 227 g/km) in his unmistakable style, whilst also designing a limited-edition series of the BMW M2 Competition which is scheduled for public purchase in June 2020. One of the hand-painted BMW M2 by Futura vehicles will celebrate its world premiere at the second Frieze Los Angeles – being held at the Paramount Pictures Studios in Hollywood from 13 to 16 February.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Well, this might answer the US time frame. June 2020
FUTURA 2000, who is known for his mastery of colour, concentric forms, and kinetic composition, will create three exclusive and unique versions of the BMW M2 Competition (combined fuel consumption: 10.0 l/100 km; combined CO2 emissions: 227 g/km) in his unmistakable style, whilst also designing a limited-edition series of the BMW M2 Competition which is scheduled for public purchase in June 2020. One of the hand-painted BMW M2 by Futura vehicles will celebrate its world premiere at the second Frieze Los Angeles – being held at the Paramount Pictures Studios in Hollywood from 13 to 16 February.

"Limited edition", that good old marketing trap...

[Poochie]

Apparently, even Subaru is jumping on the Limited Edition bandwagon an according to the inter-web, all 209 US-bound units already spoken for, at MSRP of $64,000.

I don't know why you guys have a hard time believing that BMW can't push 500 ultra-M2s, in a country of over 300 million people.

Trust me, the M2 name ring bells; I have no doubt they will sell every single vehicle before most of us even get an opportunity to see one, in the flesh. Just you wait.

https://www.subaru.com/2019-S209

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Apparently, even Subaru is jumping on the Limited Edition bandwagon an according to the inter-web, all 209 US-bound units already spoken for, at MSRP of $64,000.

OK, if you want to make your significant other feel special, say "Honey, you are precious, limited edition, 1 of 1".

My beloved wife has a twin-sister (though they cannot fool me, I can spot the difference), so should I say "1 of 1" or "1 of 2" ?