[Notaligned2]

Do these contraptions interfere with the Crank Bolt Capture products? Both can be installed at the same time?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Notaligned2

Do these contraptions interfere with the Crank Bolt Capture products? Both can be installed at the same time?

No it doesn't interfere with crank bolt capture, because this sits behind the harmonic dampener and crank bolt captures sit in front of the crank seal plate. If the dampener still fits then there will be no issue with crank bolt capture fitment.

[cbpip]

Question about using stainless steel bolts for the install . Concerned about the two dissimilar metals fusing together. Aluminum and Stainless typically not compatible and weld themselves together. Shouldn't Aluminum bolts be used ?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by cbpip

Question about using stainless steel bolts for the install . Concerned about the two dissimilar metals fusing together. Aluminum and Stainless typically not compatible and weld themselves together. Shouldn't Aluminum bolts be used ?

Good question, I just ordered one of these from Malo.

F87source do you recommend doing the crank bolt capture on a tuned N55 (450-475whp) with DCT?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by cbpip

Question about using stainless steel bolts for the install . Concerned about the two dissimilar metals fusing together. Aluminum and Stainless typically not compatible and weld themselves together. Shouldn't Aluminum bolts be used ?

Technically so long as salt water doesn't ingress into your threads it shouldn't be a large issue, and the washer stops anything from being able to get in. Bare metal on metal contact will take a really really long time (decades or more if the environment is really dry) before any electron transfers occur enough to cause corrosion. This is also talking about raw metals alone, I believe these bolts have coatings on them to make them more rust proof which should help, and the natural aluminum oxide on the block threads should help too.


Combine that with loctite acting as a barrier between the two metals, and loctite being a corrosion inhibitor that should prevent the bolts from siezing together. Put a drop of loctite on the first few threads so it can spread up the bolt and you should be fine. This is why the stainless steel drain transmission fill and bolts don't corrode to the aluminum transmission, because water doesnt get in and oil in the threads form a barrier between the two metals. The engineers at ecs also explained it the same way to me when I asked about the aluminum oil pan and titanium magnetic drain plug.


So imo I don't think is a huge issue.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Good question, I just ordered one of these from Malo.

F87source do you recommend doing the crank bolt capture on a tuned N55 (450-475whp) with DCT?

Cool! What color did you get? I forgot to tell you that if you wanted the ultimate stealth look the tumbled finish probably matches the block the best.

But I personally wouldn't do a CBC because you risk if the hub spins it'll take out the crank bolt with it. There's a thread around here where Megator and I discussed awhile back. He pretty much convinced me to not get another one. Like I had a CBC last year ready to go, but I sold it to my m4 friend who wanted one asap to install. So I was planning to get another before I did my big install project with all of my mods, but I was lucky enough to talk to megator about it and decided not to buy another one.


So imo around 450 is above a stock m4 by a bit, and around the power range of m4 cs and zcp cars. At this power range the chance of a spin crank hub is pretty low on these stock cars, and will be even lower on an n55 because we don't drive the same amount of stuff off the crank hub (the s55 has a mechanical water pump + dual hpfps). So the chance that we will experience a slip is so much less, hence why the n54 in the past pushed 600-700 whp and we rarely heard of issues. So imo at 450 you will be fine, you'll have an even lower probability of getting a spun hub than even a stock s55 which is really low already.


My advice is to get a kick down blocker so you don't engage the kick down function on the dct which is probably a big reason for spinning the hub. Because the kick down feature drips multiple gears in one go creating a huge jump in RPM, meaning a giant impulse on the crank hub as it has to spin everything it drives up to that new rpm and this giant torque can spin the hub. So the best thing you can do is stop using kick down and don't spam multiple gear down shifts go one at a time.

[F87source]

Like my only major fear with aluminum bolts is how strong are they, I believe bmw uses an aluminum compound in their bolts so it's not just raw aluminum - their sump and transmission casing has a a blend with copper and silicon iirc. The standard aluminum bolts you can buy online are pure aluminum, what if they snap or if their hex head strips then the bolt is kind of stuck in there. Also what happens if the belt break and smashes against the plate, will it be able to hold up to those huge shear and tensile forces? That's why vtt uses grade 12.9 steel bolts on their plate.

[M Fifty]

Stainless steel, is stainless steel - unless its been electroplated as well with a passivating material? It, plus aluminum will result in electrolytic corrosion of the latter if it gets wet.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Stainless steel, is stainless steel - unless its been electroplated as well with a passivating material? It, plus aluminum will result in electrolytic corrosion of the latter if it gets wet.

Water will never be able to get into the threads and you also have loctite as your barrier.

If it was as big of a deal as you made it out to be, then your transmission drain plug is probably seized to your aluminum transmission. But it's not because water doesn't get in, and you have oil as your barrier.

[M Fifty]

You have a stainless drain plug? They're generally made out of soft material to avoid damaging the oil pan, and most grades of stainless are non-ferromagnetic.

But, stainless and aluminium being a bad match in damp (or any) conditions is just a fact of life. It's only a big deal if you don't pay attention (or listen to what you want to hear from a supplier with a vested interest).

HTH

[M Fifty]

As an example, consider the posts on Lotus Elise forums extolling the virtues of replacing the (cheaply and now rusty) electroplated chassis fixings with stainless replacements. Threadlock may protect the threads, but unless you use non-ferrous washers, your aluminum tub chassis is still going to be turning to dust if you ever drive it in the wet.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

You have a stainless drain plug? They're generally made out of soft material to avoid damaging the oil pan, and most grades of stainless are non-ferromagnetic.

But, stainless and aluminium being a bad match in damp (or any) conditions is just a fact of life. It's only a big deal if you don't pay attention (or listen to what you want to hear from a supplier with a vested interest).

HTH

That's how the plug came from the factory on my m2, it was stainless as a default.


The next thing is that the block is threaded only on the top half of where it splits, so the bolt is only really threading half of it's entire length. Combine that with loctite and the washer there's no way water will ever get that far up to cause any corrosion issue. Without water as an electrolyte electron transfer is too slow to non existent for corrosion to ever cause an issue. The washer will also form a barrier between the block and the bolt head so they'll never sieze together as the washer and bolt are the same material.

Why do you think the stainless steel subframe and aluminum torque to yield bolts arent siezed together? Because water doesn't get into the threads, same with the rear steel subframe and aluminum tty bolts. I also believe the forged aluminum arms are connected with grade 8.8 carbon steel bolts, iron rotors are connected to aluminum rotor hats and the don't sieze up, steel wheel bolts forged aluminum hub and wheel no issues there either and they're exposed to alot of salt.

Take a look at fastener and metal recommendations, aluminum and stainless steel aren't recommended if you're in marine applications but for dry situations they're permissible.


Like I said not a real concern unless you're talking marine applications. As per usual you're over blowing everything out of proportion.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

As an example, consider the posts on Lotus Elise forums extolling the virtues of replacing the (cheaply and now rusty) electroplated chassis fixings with stainless replacements. Threadlock may protect the threads, but unless you use non-ferrous washers, your aluminum tub chassis is still going to be turning to dust if you ever drive it in the wet.

You do realize nothing stainless steel is touching the external side of the engine block right? The aluminum plate is touching the aluminum engine block, and the stainless washer is touching the plate.


The only thing touching the aluminum block that is stainless steel is the bolt threads and that is not only dry but has a loctite barrier protecting it.


You can even get an anodized plate to protect it from direct contact with the stainless washer if you so desire...

[M Fifty]

Then the plate is going to be the thing that's corroding. Which, to be clear, is better than the block.

Anodising helps, but won't fix it. Fit something other than a stainless washer, and you might be okay.

Unless you regularly drive where they grit the roads.

Like Canada.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Then the plate is going to be the thing that's corroding. Which, to be clear, is better than the block.

Anodising helps, but won't fix it. Fit something other than a stainless washer, and you might be okay.

Unless you regularly drive where they grit the roads.

Like Canada.

Strange my wheel hubs, wheels, wheel bolts, rotors and hat, have not corroded yet. To think of it I haven't ever heard of this issue occuring to anyone else either.


If you're super OCD then get these aluminium bolts: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184106786596

IIRC we use m8 x 1.25 X40mm bolts. The torque spec for the block is 19nm +/- 3nm as per ista (iirc), I would put it on the low side at 16 nm for Chinese aluminium bolts (unless you got them from a factory with good QC) since any material defects could weaken it to the point of snapping at lower torque specs than it should. Also becareful of aluminium bolts they're super soft and easy to stretch so if you remove them alot it would be best to swap them out so you don't snap them.

Or get copper washers from home depot it's your choice.


BTW: the harmonic dampener area of the car where this plate will sit is super well shielded from the elements, my engine block was perfectly clean there as it should be. If you are getting a bunch of salt water there I would be more worried about the belt slipping off (from all the water and salt build up) and the steel dampener and pulley bearings corroding over time more than anything else.

[M Fifty]

"We"? Ah - okay.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

"We"? Ah - okay.

We as in the n55 engine in our m2 platform. Just like we should use LL01 or LL01FE oils while under warranty.

Like I said before, I don't make any money from this plate and I am not affiliated with malo industries. If I were then I would be advertising all of their products and making a review for everything. But I am not so I only made a review for the items I personally use.

So you can stop your consperacies. If you must know my field of work is in Science, I don't do anything related to the automotive sector besides the few forums I'm on. Cars are a hobby to me and nothing more - i.e. I don't have a car shop if I did I would be posting "come visit me and I'll hook you up" and have a tag to my shop's social media. If you look through every single one of my posts I have never posted anything like that.


BTW the harmonic dampener actually sits over these bolts like a cup, so it acts as a splash guard for this area, along with the subframe and pretty much every splash guard under the car. So if you are getting salt water on this area I would be really really concerned for the belt and the crank hub itself.

[M Fifty]

Who needs conspiracy theories when we have Science?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Who needs conspiracy theories when we have Science?

You're absolutely correct when you speak about the potential of galvanic corrosion. If this was a marine forum then yeah this would be a huge issue, but it's not. However galvanic corrosion does not occur in the absence of an electrolyte, and it would be impossible for salt water to even reach this area of the car and even more impossible to seep into the threads.

I was also brining this up to Malo to see what else they could do to further ease your mind on this issue. But he assured me that it wasn't a concern and he was certain it would be fine - likely because of how unlikely it is to get water exposure there. Also he informed me bmw uses steel studs on the n54 to mount their intake manifold so yeah, not sure how galvanic corrosion will play out with that and the aluminum head.


But you're absolutely incorrect about your accusations regarding me. I mean I wish I had an auto repair shop + made these guards but I don't. And by your logic I also own bms, ecs tuning etc because I did reviews for them. At that point I'd be closing in on billionaire status and if that was the case I wouldn't be doing reviews, I'd be driving an amg project one.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Who needs conspiracy theories when we have Science?

Also here's another question, why aren't we all worried about the steel drain plug (I'm pretty sure it's a type of carbon steel) and aluminum sump? Also what about the copper drain washer and aluminum sump? I mean these two metals are quite far from aluminum on the galvanic table and they directly touch the aluminum oil pan. The oil pan can also be exposed to alot of salt during the winter months, yet no one worries about it.

[M Fifty]

Now we are getting somewhere. So remind why you thought the statement that:
"I just talked to malo industries and he informed me that stainless steel is inert so it should be safe to use on aluminium and magnesium blocks. So that concern should be fine." was accurate?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

Now we are getting somewhere. So remind why you thought the statement that:
"I just talked to malo industries and he informed me that stainless steel is inert so it should be safe to use on aluminium and magnesium blocks. So that concern should be fine." was accurate?

Yes that was technically inaccurate, I just asked malo and they responded and I reposted that. I will delete that as to not spread any more misinformation, I should have instead just checked the galvanic corrosion potentials myself instead of asked. But I generally forward all questions to the company so you get the most accurate information about the product here, in this case it was not fully accurate from the get go. Now my statements about loctite forming a barrier + no water getting into this area still holds true so you should be fine in that aspect.



If we look into that statement from malo abit further we have a few interpretations:

1) SS is inert with aluminium: the statement is less (but not void of flaw) innacurate if you have the active version of stainless steel type 304, as that is quite close to aluminium on the galvanic table so it would be "inert" in this case. I believe the difference is how much chromium is added to the stainless steel.


2) Chemically inert: As a metal itself stainless steel can be considered inert (doesn't oxidize generally doesn't react with chemicals), but in a galvanic corrosion sense not really, it more so depends on what the second metal is. For eg. gold is chemically inert, but on a galvanic sense it is not if the second metal is higher up on the galvanic table.



Overall It's been a long time since I dealt with corrosion on a material stand point, back when I did do alot of this stuff I normally only looked at redox reactions as terminal electron acceptors in aerobic respiration, and a bit of sacrifical anodes for rust protection (for protection on hulls of boats) and even then that was a long time ago. So I need to brush up on this stuff and why I just forwarded this to malo - I was just lazy. But now you've sparked my interest and I am revisiting this topic.


Still, no electrolyte means no galvanic corrosion, and you could always change out the washer to copper which sits between aluminium and stainless steel on the galvanic table and would act as an insulator. That's what I remember the engineers at ECS tuning discussed with me when they designed their titanium magnetic drain bolt and how it also would prevent corrosion of the sump. Probably why our stock steel drain bolt uses a copper crush washer as well.