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      09-23-2021, 09:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
LOL .... sorry my bad
Completely different ball game & I agree.
Owned one myself & loved it.!
No problem lol, I actually meant to be less terse in my last reply but I got interrupted and I guess I clicked post anyway.
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      09-24-2021, 07:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
I wanted so much to love the Cayman but after driving the 718 pdk and the manual I felt that the M2C was more fun to drive on the street. I have no doubt that flat out on the track is where it would come into it's prime. The lack of torque around town was disappointing, they made my M2C feel like a muscle car.
which 718s did you drive?
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      09-24-2021, 11:20 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by baege View Post
which 718s did you drive?
I was looking for something that would fit into the same budget range as an M2 so I drove the Cayman pdk and a Boxster stick. I did not drive an S since that would be way out of the M2 price range. Inside the cockpit it sounded like a VW bug with a turbo to me.
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      09-24-2021, 12:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
People don't seem to realize the torque at the actual wheels is what matters, not the crank. After the gearing and final drive the torque is excellent. People also don't understand that you really need to push the pedal down and use the revs.
Sorry, I don't agree.

Using the revs is a problem on the street.
The tall gearing issue has been beaten to death for a reason.
The tall gearing also hinders torque.
It's a problem? What kind of daily driving were you not able to do? A Toyota Camry from 2008 made 160 torque. How is it that could work as a daily driver but a 295 torque BMW from 2008 doesn't have enough torque to be daily driven?
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      09-24-2021, 05:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
It's a problem? What kind of daily driving were you not able to do? A Toyota Camry from 2008 made 160 torque. How is it that could work as a daily driver but a 295 torque BMW from 2008 doesn't have enough torque to be daily driven?
He's talking about the Cayman 9A1 though, not the S65. Some crosstalk I think . Problem is relative.
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      09-24-2021, 05:24 PM   #28
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Porsche delivers a fairly esoteric driving experience, even by enthusiast standards. Always has. Yes, the 911 is an obvious oddball, but mid-engine sports cars aren’t exactly common south of Ferrariland either. The things Porsche really does well--the way the steering and chassis work with you to dance right around the limit, or the frankly awesome stopping power--can't be fully appreciated on the road, at 5/10ths or below. If you have a GTS or GT model and aren’t tracking it at least occasionally, you’re not getting anywhere near the focal point of the experience. Definite contrast with BMW, who tunes their performance cars for the people who mainly want to dick around on the back roads with their buddies (don’t we all).

The Boxster did come into being as the relatively attainable and approachable Porsche, but perception always lags reality; that was 25 years ago when the only trim level had 200 hp and a $65k (inflation-adjusted) sticker price, and the standard 911 was still a quirky-but-serious sports car first and everything else second. The 911 has evolved and the Boxster/Cayman along with it. Today's Boxster/Cayman GTS is a $100k (with essentials) car with as much power as a 996 or 997 GT3 and a chassis to match (although the GTS 4.0 in particular is a bit of a hack--I think the “party trick” comment earlier is about right).

If you really love what BMW M brings to the table and think you want a Porsche sports car, think twice. Maybe you really do--but odds are it's not what you think it is.
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      09-24-2021, 05:28 PM   #29
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Some comments in this thread lol... I went from 2016 M4C 6MT to 2019 M2 6MT and finally to 2016 Cayman GTS PDK (throughout this whole transition I have also had a 2001 Miata 5MT and still have it). CGTS is easily the most fun car I've owned despite not being a manual (and also the best sounding). I specifically looked for a PDK due to the tall gearing issue and initially was expecting to get bored after some time but I still love every second of it after owning it for over a year now. CGTS is a completely different animal when it comes to handling, feedback, agility and power delivery. It's NA so if you drive it like you drive a turbocharged car, of course you are not going to have the same experience especially in daily driving. The car loves to be at 5K-7.5K RPM range and even at spritied driving there are slow enough corners you have to downshift into 1st whereas you could easily be in 2nd without any problem in a car like M2C thanks to the low end torque. In other words, my CGTS demands a different driving style than my M2C did and I actually absolutely love it. Both my M4C and M2C had so much more power and torque but I much prefer driving experience of a naturally aspirated, midengine car. Do I miss my M2C? Yes, it was one hell of a fun car. I'm still a huge BMW fan and I would love to have an M2C next to my CGTS but I would never sell my CGTS to go back to an M2/M4 (or any M for that matter). I will probably add an M sedan to my garage for hauling the family and daily driving though.
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      09-24-2021, 06:36 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by baege View Post
wow this post really hits home for me

I currently have a deposit on an allocation for a CGTS 4.0.

I've had 2 Cayman 981 S's in the past.

I currently have an M2C.

I like cars with good low end torque (I think my affinity for this started way back with fox body 5.0 mustangs I had).

My preference for low end torque has showed itself over the years, one clear example being my purchase of a mx6 with a torquey 2.5 v6 over a prelude with a vtec. The prelude was better looking, had a better manual and handled better, but it was weak in the lower rev ranges compared to the 2.5 v6.

Your review makes me seriously consider whether the 4.0 GTS is the right move for me. I always felt like the 3.4 caymans had decent enough low end torque, but that was before I had an M2. it may well be that the 4.0 compared to the S55 feels like the prelude did as compared to the mx6.

sounds like I need to drive a 4.0

and I really would like to hear your review of a 992S as compared to the 4.0, the size of the 992 makes me hesitate but it's something I've thought about.


I really think you should try to get a test drive on a road you know pretty well. You may like it after all. I didnít really consider myself having much of a turbo torque vs NA power mindset and figured I enjoyed both. For instance I love how the Miata ND delivers its power even though itís not much. The acceleration matches the revs, matches the sound, and the gear change point in the manual is almost always perfect. I was expecting similar (and maybe more) on the GTS. Iím not saying itís not a better car, Iím just saying it was less enjoyable than I had imagined. I had to Ďthinkí about it to enjoy it and that felt wired.

I also think the OGM2 in manual with its single turbo gets as close to an NA M car as one can get from BMW today and i think that made the engine closer in feel to the 718 for me in the low end (along with the fact that it also sounds great).

Regarding the 992, I absolutely loved that car. First drive and it was perfect. I actually went to the dealership that day to see about the 4 cyl 718 GTS cos it was being offered for 20 grand off at that particular dealership that day. But unfortunately (not sure for whom), I drove the 992 S first. The GTS felt meh to me after that. Maybe I like refinement in my cars more than I know. Lol.
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      09-24-2021, 06:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggins View Post
I echo some of the things you are saying in this post OP. I dipped my toe into P car ownership a couple of years ago through a new 2018 Cayman S. Obviously the handling characteristics of that car were truly sublime, and the way the car rotated and steered through a corner was telepathic. But there was also a lot that I couldn't accept, including: very sub par build quality which was a shock to me after hearing about how P cars are the best in the world, rough sounding 4cyl turbo (not an issue with the NA 4.0), and an incredibly loud cabin roar that was ever present. I am glad I scratched that itch, and maybe a 911 would have been different but I was underwhelmed overall.


Yeah the 718 chassis is a masterpiece all by itself.
You should try the 911 though. Iím not experienced enough to say exactly what makes it the best car Iíve ever driven but I know that without a doubt and without being influenced by all the hype it gets (like I said, I was never into the 911 and what I thought would be my dream garage was one with the best sub 100k cars of my time which I reckoned to be an M2 and a Cayman/Boxster), but I was blown away by it. You get in and immediately feel you can do anything with this car, and you want to do it all. Thatís the best way I can describe it.
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      09-24-2021, 06:48 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by No Boost View Post
Both of those are unobtainable for me so I'll never know
When you say "not good low end torque", compared to a modern turbo, yes...you're not getting that thrust at 1500 rpm. I will say this though, I never had a problem in the lower rev range when my Cayman was stock. It spun up quickly to where the meat of the powerband was.

As great as the S65 is, it has a commonly known shortfall which is lack of torque (295 lb-ft) for daily driving. I've never driven an E9x M3 but, I'd have to chalk that up to the mass of the car at roughly 3600+ lbs as being one reason. The Cayman/Boxter never had a problem with being fat so perhaps that's why only 258 lb-ft was sufficient.

I'm confident that I could daily a GT4 and not complain about the low end. Others would.


Yeah if you love living in the high revs youíll like it.
I can only do that with confidence in a miata. since I donít track
But not being able to rev a car that loves to rev out to third gear on the street is a bummer though.
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      09-24-2021, 06:50 PM   #33
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I'll keep this short and sweet. Go for the GT3 because of the engine, the engine, and that engine.



Hahahahahaha.
I second that.
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      09-24-2021, 06:56 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by OzWoz View Post
Thanks for the review Spydert. This gives me the sads, as I've been telling myself that a Cayman GTS 4.0 is the only car that I would leave my OG M2 for. I used to own a 987 Cayman S and loved it, although not enough to trade it in and get myself installed in a manual M2.

I went to the local Porsche dealer for the launch of the 4 cyl 718 and just could not get past the gorgeous lines of the car....only to hear that nauseating drone from the exhaust. The 4.0 will fix that! (I thought).

The long gearing always concerned me, and the thought of needing to take a brand new Porsche to Sharkwerks to resolve that problem seemed ludicrous.

I'd still like to drive one myself to confirm my fears, but yeah, I think 911 has replaced the Cayman in my brain-garage. My wallet doesn't approve of this change!.



Hahahahahaha.
My wallet is complaining too.
But when the desirable 718 is knocking so firmly on the 911s door (price wise), what is one to do?
Please test drive one first though. You may not feel the same way I did about it. But when you do, also test drive the 911. I know we make a lot of noise about Porscheís NA engines cos theyíre endangered but that may be making us blind to the genius theyíve built into their turbo engines.
Same thing applies to their pdk, I would never have so much as requested a test drive in a non manual Porsche, but since I did, Iím still unable to decide if I want a pdk or manual 911.
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      09-24-2021, 07:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by AlpsRider View Post
I wanted so much to love the Cayman but after driving the 718 pdk and the manual I felt that the M2C was more fun to drive on the street. I have no doubt that flat out on the track is where it would come into it's prime. The lack of torque around town was disappointing, they made my M2C feel like a muscle car.
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Originally Posted by akhbhaat View Post
Porsche delivers a fairly esoteric driving experience, even by enthusiast standards. Always has. Yes, the 911 is an obvious oddball, but mid-engine sports cars arenít exactly common south of Ferrariland either. The things Porsche really does well--the way the steering and chassis work with you to dance right around the limit, or the frankly awesome stopping power--can't be fully appreciated on the road, at 5/10ths or below. If you have a GTS or GT model and arenít tracking it at least occasionally, youíre not getting anywhere near the focal point of the experience. Definite contrast with BMW, who tunes their performance cars for the people who mainly want to dick around on the back roads with their buddies (donít we all).

The Boxster did come into being as the relatively attainable and approachable Porsche, but perception always lags reality; that was 25 years ago when the only trim level had 200 hp and a $65k (inflation-adjusted) sticker price, and the standard 911 was still a quirky-but-serious sports car first and everything else second. The 911 has evolved and the Boxster/Cayman along with it. Today's Boxster/Cayman GTS is a $100k (with essentials) car with as much power as a 996 or 997 GT3 and a chassis to match (although the GTS 4.0 in particular is a bit of a hack--I think the ďparty trickĒ comment earlier is about right).

If you really love what BMW M brings to the table and think you want a Porsche sports car, think twice. Maybe you really do--but odds are it's not what you think it is.


Hear! Hear!
Although maybe if Porsche gave us a 70k-ish turbo flat six with the 718 chassis today, it might just be the Cayman us masses always thought weíd buy. Instead, outside of an suv, you canít get a Porsche without a Ďbutí for less than a hundred grand. Ouch.
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      09-24-2021, 07:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by M-Pilot View Post
Some comments in this thread lol... I went from 2016 M4C 6MT to 2019 M2 6MT and finally to 2016 Cayman GTS PDK (throughout this whole transition I have also had a 2001 Miata 5MT and still have it). CGTS is easily the most fun car I've owned despite not being a manual (and also the best sounding). I specifically looked for a PDK due to the tall gearing issue and initially was expecting to get bored after some time but I still love every second of it after owning it for over a year now. CGTS is a completely different animal when it comes to handling, feedback, agility and power delivery. It's NA so if you drive it like you drive a turbocharged car, of course you are not going to have the same experience especially in daily driving. The car loves to be at 5K-7.5K RPM range and even at spritied driving there are slow enough corners you have to downshift into 1st whereas you could easily be in 2nd without any problem in a car like M2C thanks to the low end torque. In other words, my CGTS demands a different driving style than my M2C did and I actually absolutely love it. Both my M4C and M2C had so much more power and torque but I much prefer driving experience of a naturally aspirated, midengine car. Do I miss my M2C? Yes, it was one hell of a fun car. I'm still a huge BMW fan and I would love to have an M2C next to my CGTS but I would never sell my CGTS to go back to an M2/M4 (or any M for that matter). I will probably add an M sedan to my garage for hauling the family and daily driving though.


I think in terms of how they drive, the 16 GTS differs from the 718. Less weight, less power, similar torque. It should be easier to enjoy the 2016 below the limit.
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      09-24-2021, 07:21 PM   #37
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For what it’s worth, seems Porsche is doing away with ICE in the 718 in bout three to four years. So if you’re interested, get yours now and you can decide on whether to keep it later. I reckon it’ll hold its value pretty well - no matter which one you get.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...uture-details/
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      09-25-2021, 07:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Spydert View Post
For what itís worth, seems Porsche is doing away with ICE in the 718 in bout three to four years. So if youíre interested, get yours now and you can decide on whether to keep it later. I reckon itíll hold its value pretty well - no matter which one you get.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...uture-details/
The upcoming Cayman GT4 RS will be quite hard to get an allocation for. Reading the comments of others, lower variants of the Cayman donít quite have the low end torque.
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      09-30-2021, 11:17 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Pilot View Post
Some comments in this thread lol... I went from 2016 M4C 6MT to 2019 M2 6MT and finally to 2016 Cayman GTS PDK (throughout this whole transition I have also had a 2001 Miata 5MT and still have it). CGTS is easily the most fun car I've owned despite not being a manual (and also the best sounding). I specifically looked for a PDK due to the tall gearing issue and initially was expecting to get bored after some time but I still love every second of it after owning it for over a year now. CGTS is a completely different animal when it comes to handling, feedback, agility and power delivery. It's NA so if you drive it like you drive a turbocharged car, of course you are not going to have the same experience especially in daily driving. The car loves to be at 5K-7.5K RPM range and even at spritied driving there are slow enough corners you have to downshift into 1st whereas you could easily be in 2nd without any problem in a car like M2C thanks to the low end torque. In other words, my CGTS demands a different driving style than my M2C did and I actually absolutely love it. Both my M4C and M2C had so much more power and torque but I much prefer driving experience of a naturally aspirated, midengine car. Do I miss my M2C? Yes, it was one hell of a fun car. I'm still a huge BMW fan and I would love to have an M2C next to my CGTS but I would never sell my CGTS to go back to an M2/M4 (or any M for that matter). I will probably add an M sedan to my garage for hauling the family and daily driving though.
To me, the tall gearing IS a big deal, enough so that I personally think the M2C/CS is more fun on the streets than the GT4. Is it as good of a car? Absolutely not, the 981 GT4 I drove was easily one of the most confidence inspiring cars I've ever driven. Everything from the brakes, the noise, the looks was sublime.

I cannot think of any enthusiastic driving that I do that would warrant going down to first gear unless I'm taking off or launching the car. All my M's, all manual, some straight 6, one V8, 3 of them NA, 1 turbo have all really good gearing (my only complaint is that 6th gear can be taller on the M2C).

When you are hooning the Porsche in the mountains, it's really not a problem as you can pretty much stay in 2nd and 3rd gear the entire time. But if you drive on the street 90% of the time, the excitement is just not there as much as it should be IMHO. Still a wonderful car though!

P.S. If heaven forbid I was no longer able to drive manuals (I'd be screwed at the moment because that's literally all I have), the 718 Spyder PDK would be way up my list personally.
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      09-30-2021, 01:06 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
I cannot think of any enthusiastic driving that I do that would warrant going down to first gear unless I'm taking off or launching the car. All my M's, all manual, some straight 6, one V8, 3 of them NA, 1 turbo have all really good gearing (my only complaint is that 6th gear can be taller on the M2C).
I was gonna say, I've never driven a manual that required a downshift to 1st anywhere other than a complete stop, or maybe if you need to have some punch at ~5 mph. You can't easily get into first when moving on most MTs I have driven.
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      09-30-2021, 03:42 PM   #41
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To me, the tall gearing IS a big deal, enough so that I personally think the M2C/CS is more fun on the streets than the GT4. Is it as good of a car? Absolutely not, the 981 GT4 I drove was easily one of the most confidence inspiring cars I've ever driven. Everything from the brakes, the noise, the looks was sublime.

I cannot think of any enthusiastic driving that I do that would warrant going down to first gear unless I'm taking off or launching the car. All my M's, all manual, some straight 6, one V8, 3 of them NA, 1 turbo have all really good gearing (my only complaint is that 6th gear can be taller on the M2C).

When you are hooning the Porsche in the mountains, it's really not a problem as you can pretty much stay in 2nd and 3rd gear the entire time. But if you drive on the street 90% of the time, the excitement is just not there as much as it should be IMHO. Still a wonderful car though!

P.S. If heaven forbid I was no longer able to drive manuals (I'd be screwed at the moment because that's literally all I have), the 718 Spyder PDK would be way up my list personally.
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I was gonna say, I've never driven a manual that required a downshift to 1st anywhere other than a complete stop, or maybe if you need to have some punch at ~5 mph. You can't easily get into first when moving on most MTs I have driven.
Regarding my 1st gear comment, if you watch some reviews of 981 GTS, you will see how you might have to use the 1st gear in certain situations. I believe Evo's review of Cayman/Boxster GTS on the mountains demonstrated this well enough. For example, if you are about to hit a steep uphill hairpin, good luck staying in the 2nd gear. You will be completely out of the torque band in such a slow corner. Even in PDK, I have to downshift into 1st to get the optimum acceleration coming out of such a hairpin.

Example: Hwy 9, Santa Cruz Mountains in Bay Area (the screenshot doesn't show the elevation changes but going in the direction of the arrows, you are basically climbing up coming out of the hairpin)



"When you are hooning the Porsche in the mountains, it's really not a problem as you can pretty much stay in 2nd and 3rd gear the entire time."

I completely disagree. My CGTS is a PDK and I chose the PDK over manual after test driving them back to back. As a manual fan, the tall gearing was a big deal-breaker for me even in the mountains. The speed limit is around 45-50mph on the mountain roads near where I live and the 2nd gear takes you all the way to 83mph in a manual Boxster/Cayman. If I'm going to stay in 2nd gear the whole time and not row my own gears as often as I would like to, what's the point of a manual? In order to get the most excitement and joy out of these NA cars, you really have to go beyond 5k rpm, which is definitely not the case in a car like M2C. The PDK redlines around 70 mph in 2nd gear and it's still relatively tall but definitely better than the gearing of the manual IMO. I don't see myself fully enjoying a manual Boxster/Cayman unless I'm on a track.

Edit: That being said, manuals are a dying breed and Porsche manuals are some of the best in the game. So one part of me still wants to grab one before it's too late despite the horrible gearing.
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      09-30-2021, 05:05 PM   #42
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It is true that driving on very steep twisty mountain roads takes special shifting skill. Depending on where a person lives, some people may have never encountered extremely technical roads like the face of Mt. Palomar or the European Alps.
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      10-03-2021, 12:08 AM   #43
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Honestly 70mph in 2nd gear at redline in a manual trans GT car is so incredibly dumb. What is the point of this? Why wouldn't you want to shift more? This is only amplified by the fact the motor is dead below 5krpm, not that different the S65 I owned. In the end I honestly think the Cayman is a pointless car.
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      10-07-2021, 06:36 AM   #44
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Drives: F87 M2C, E92 M3, E36 M3, Z4MR
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Honestly 70mph in 2nd gear at redline in a manual trans GT car is so incredibly dumb. What is the point of this? Why wouldn't you want to shift more? This is only amplified by the fact the motor is dead below 5krpm, not that different the S65 I owned. In the end I honestly think the Cayman is a pointless car.
Not sure I'd call it dead, maybe just adequate. Bad to me is the first gen BRZ haha. One of the best mods I ever did was cat delete with a tune on the E92 M3, it really woke it up at 3k RPM. One thing I can't complain about the BMW's is that the gearing is much better compared to the Porsches IMHO.

This is why I don't see myself owning a Cayman or GT4. At the very least, you get to enjoy top down experience in the Spyder and enjoy some noise at lower RPM
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