[M2_MEDUSA]

Okay guys I have a question regarding what you see in the title about over steer. I'm new to the platform and never had a power this level rwd or an LSD. I'm curious what's the safest way to combat oversteer and get traction back. I've always thought it was a SLIGHT correction in the opposite way while taking your foot completely off the gas when your rear slips out. From a few people I've heard this is not the case. I'm just your occasional cannonball canyon driver who 100% drives within his limits and want to know if I'm in a situation where I encounter oversteer how do I save the car in the safest way possible? Thanks !

[5.M0NSTER]

Depends on your driving style and situation. The M2 with it's trick diff will often give you a feeling of oversteer, without it actually being oversteer (by applying power to the outside rear wheel to combat understeer).

Lifting throttle shifts weight forward, and it's easier to combat oversteer with the rear wheels loaded up. But the question is what kind of oversteer do you have, and why?

Here is my short breakdown of some theory on types of oversteer and what to do (sometimes at least).

1) Tight corner on power oversteer - lift throttle as too much is why you're in oversteer to begin with, and add steering correction
2) Mid corner maintenance throttle oversteer in fast corners - don't lift, and add just a quick correction. The higher the speed of the car, the faster you have to be with correction, but the amplitude of correction decreases. And the R in CPR (correct, pause, recover) also has to be very fast for high speeds. Like in my little Ring vide below
3) Corner exit oversteer - if you have some extra space to use on the outside, stay on power and add your correction. Fastest way our of a corner.

But in general, if you've entered the corner too fast and start loosing the back, do what you feel most confident doing. Slight lift and counter steer to reduce speed and correct is not a bad thing when you're just trying to save the car.

Also definitely invest in AutoX or track days, or a car control clinic to learn the right techniques, get comfortable, and push your own limits as a driver. And practice, practice, practice... Driver mod for life!

Here is a fun little skid I had at the ring this year. Decided not to brake as hard for Planzgarten after the jump. Got a bit sideways. I counter steered, lifted a little, and added more counter steer to stay on the tarmac. So at the end of the day, whatever it takes. And that was still a sub 8 min lap

[FaRKle!]

You're correct on counter steering (as much as needed not necessarily a just a small amount), but you don't want to come off throttle very fast and abruptly. That will rapidly shift weight forward and cause oversteer in the counter steer direction because suddenly the front wheels gain a lot of grip and are turned in the opposite direction. This is referred to as a "tank slapper."

What you want to do is counter steer and come off throttle just slightly and smoothly till you feel the slide catch and then you want to straighten out the steering as the car comes around.

[Maynard]

Do a car control clinic where they have a skidpad, if possible. And probably a few HPDE days, but the skidpad time is key; really no good places to learn this on the street unless you live in the snowbelt. All the talking and thinking in the world can't make up for the actual experience of doing it. And don't turn off DTC, even to use MDM, until you feel you have a handle on this.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Depends on your driving style and situation. The M2 with it's trick diff will often give you a feeling of oversteer, without it actually being oversteer (by applying power to the outside rear wheel to combat understeer).

Are you sure about this? The M diff is not capable of torque vectoring. :

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Are you sure about this? The M diff is not capable of torque vectoring. :

Good question, the M active diff varies the locking state of each half shaft, thus enabling different torque and yaw behavior. Full torque vectoring can send 100% of torque to one wheel. I'm not sure if the M active diff can.

But I have experience the M active diff induce more yaw than a car with a Torsen for example.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Good question, the M active diff varies the locking state of each half shaft, thus enabling different torque and yaw behavior. Full torque vectoring can send 100% of torque to one wheel. I'm not sure if the M active diff can.

But I have experience the M active diff induce more yaw than a car with a Torsen for example.

No it definitely doesn't vector. There is a single stepper motor controlling a single clutch pack, which only alters the torque differential between shafts.

This is an excellent (geeky) demonstration of how it works.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Okay guys I have a question regarding what you see in the title about over steer. I'm new to the platform and never had a power this level rwd or an LSD. I'm curious what's the safest way to combat oversteer and get traction back. I've always thought it was a SLIGHT correction in the opposite way while taking your foot completely off the gas when your rear slips out. From a few people I've heard this is not the case. I'm just your occasional cannonball canyon driver who 100% drives within his limits and want to know if I'm in a situation where I encounter oversteer how do I save the car in the safest way possible? Thanks !

Never on and off 100% when losing traction, even on the straight!

If you are 30% on throttle and start losing traction you can completely lift off but not when you are at full throttle. Lift off gradually or best lift off slightly and maintain constant throttle after that while counter steering

[Megator]

As others have said do a skid pan day. Its good to know the theory, but the reflexes need to be baked in first, in order to put it into practice on track. When you slide you don't get seconds to think about what you should do.

You should be reacting and countering within milliseconds of your butt feeling the slide. The faster you react, the less correction you need. The more precisely you counter, the less likey you are to spin or get a tank slapper.

I did a good 5 hours of drift training on a wet track with special slick tires (to make slides easier at lower speeds). They set out a course with cones and you try to drift the whole thing. This place is great in that they do two layout, a fast one and a technical one. It helps get a feel for drifting at speed and doing low speed transitions.

This is the worst "incident" I have had and caught. The car slid on entry and I knew I could not power slide out to the side of the track as I would usually do in this situation, as I had that other guy right there. If I had we could have clipped.

So I had to keep the slide as small as possible...but momentum doesn't work like that lol. If I didn't have this experience the car would prob not look so nice anymore.

[Daytona_550]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

...if I'm in a situation where I encounter oversteer how do I save the car in the safest way possible? Thanks !

This might be helpful:

And as others have said, seat time on track or at some controlled event, to develop the reaction time and smooth steering inputs. Once you drive the car enough, you will "sense" when oversteer is about to happen (vs already happening) and you will be able to react faster and intuitively.

[richard in NC]

Some good advise here: Although I wish they showed the hands. I definitely recommend an M School or similar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-6pXS6sAKA

[M2_MEDUSA]

Thank you to everyone who commented on this thread and shared your experience and knowledge and sources. Everyone of your posts I read and will use to be a better driver. Thank you !

[Dean_Clevername]

Best thing you can do is find an event where you can practice oversteer safely and get comfortable with it before you ever are in the unfortunate situation of encountering it on the street.

Skid pad days, autocross, autocross schools, etc are great places to start. Low speed, not much to go wrong. You can spin the car and get comfortable with it in a controlled environment while having a ton of fun.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Thanks everybody got a track day scheduled !!

[nando_514]

One thing that would be tremendous in your hunt for oversteer control would be attending a snow car control/track day!

It looks like you live in SoCal, but if you're willing to travel up north during the winter, I'm sure you can find some snow car control clinics.. Working with an instructor to put you in different situations of understeer and overseer will let you explore without too much fear, and at pace that allows you to think for days about what's coming next! Even though it'll be different than what you'd experience at a track day in July going 100MPH, there will be flavors, or 'essences' of what you learned over the winter, helping you better navigate through any oversteer situation that comes your way. The name of the game is arming yourself with as much knowledge, experience and theory as possible to bolster your wheelman arsenal!

EDIT:
I would also be careful about following advice of some of the posts above to a T. Driving is rarely ever black and white.. You lose a bit of nuance when having to limit yourself to character on a webpage. There's a lot of talk of countersteer like this and like that, but no one's mentioned the point at which you have to start centering the wheel. There IS a point where you can feed to much counter steer into the wheel and cause the car to YEET in the other direction --think *snap*snap* oversteer. There's no substitute for getting out there and monkeying around for yourself. Get yourself into some car control clinics at HPDE events and go from there. Hope this helps!

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Thanks everybody got a track day scheduled !!

Great! You'll love the M2C on track. Hopefully you get a great instructor to help you learn, and let you begin to push the car. One additional comment to above, is the best tool is experience. The more opportunity you have to learn, the easier it is to react and recover properly.

Note the BMW Performance Center calls it CPR.

Correct: Counter steer quickly and just enough to stop the tail going out.
Pause: Pause an instant so as to not over react, snapping the car back the other way.
Recover: As the tail comes back, straighten the wheel.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Thanks everybody got a track day scheduled !!

If with the San Diego BMW CCA, I wonder if Dan Tackett is still instructing? Apparently quite a reputation as that. I met him once at a BMW event. He won the drift contest!

[Doublej]

Not sure if you autocross but that can also be a great tool for car control and learning smooth throttle/steering input.

Still prepping my M2C for the track. Even though I've had it for a year already, I've barely driven it but I do plan to hit a couple autox events so I can get a feel for the dynamics.

I find it valuable at least. Some may think autox is too low speed to gain any real experience but you'd be surprised.

JJ

[bimmerboyE92]

A little countersteer, a little lift, a little throttle, repeat until track out....

But in general, a stock BMW will not oversteer. It will push no matter how much steering input. Even my modded F80 pushes a little. Wait for Turn 10 in the video where I find it was faster to just go over the rumbles and apply throttle rather than continue to try to add steering input with no affect.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

A little countersteer, a little lift, a little throttle, repeat until track out....

But in general, a stock BMW will not oversteer. It will push no matter how much steering input. Even my modded F80 pushes a little. Wait for Turn 10 in the video where I find it was faster to just go over the rumbles and apply throttle rather than continue to try to add steering input with no affect.

I'm no expert instructor but adding steering input doesn't correct understeer. In fact, after a certain point, it just makes it worse. If you're already at the tires limit, asking it to do more isn't the answer.

At steady state (on a skid pad), yes most BMWs understeer given weight distribution and staggered tire sizes. On track, understeer is avoided by trail braking, slightly slower entry speeds, proper throttle, and opening the steering on corner exit. I always hated turns 1-2 at VIR until I got this down.

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

I'm no expert instructor but adding steering input doesn't correct understeer. In fact, after a certain point, it just makes it worse. If you're already at the tires limit, asking it to do more isn't the answer.

At steady state (on a skid pad), yes most BMWs understeer given weight distribution and staggered tire sizes. On track, understeer is avoided by trail braking, slightly slower entry speeds, proper throttle, and opening the steering on corner exit. I always hated turns 1-2 at VIR until I got this down.

Sometimes the car scrubs off enough speed in that corner for the front end to bite but tires were at around 20 heat cycles and didn't have it anymore.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

Sometimes the car scrubs off enough speed in that corner for the front end to bite but tires were at around 20 heat cycles and didn't have it anymore.

That can do it too! Outside fronts take all the abuse and get greasy causing more understeer. It's not just the compound but the over-inflation causing a smaller tire patch.

The stock PSS seem to be best in laps 2-7 and I often have to back off the last few laps of a session. Or get very frustrated.