[Chopper731]

Performance. Reliability. Affordability.

Pick two.

[KevinM]

I actually think the S55 has a very good reliability record for a performance engine. It's been in production since 2014, and sure there are people with with the spun crank hub, etc., but this appears to be quite rare given the production numbers. Forums tend to attract those with problems (as well as enthusiasts, of course ) and there is relatively little traffic about reliability compared to, for example, rod bearing failure in the S85 engine.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by KevinM

I actually think the S55 has a very good reliability record for a performance engine. It's been in production since 2014, and sure there are people with with the spun crank hub, etc., but this appears to be quite rare given the production numbers. Forums tend to attract those with problems (as well as enthusiasts, of course ) and there is relatively little traffic about reliability compared to, for example, rod bearing failure in the S85 engine.

Agreed. Not to mention BMWNA opens cases for every single one of these reports posted on the forum (know this for a fact but cannot say how) and then works to investigate them and work with the dealers who are reporting them. They do this because if there is an issue that impacts safety (engine failure being one), they have strict reporting obligations to NHTSA and if they fail to report, could lead to enormous fines.

If this was an actual large problem, BMW would have had to do a recall by now (or some other remedy) or risk the huge potential impact of a NHTSA violation. NHTSA has made it nearly impossible for manufacturers to get away with large scale safety failures like this unscathed (see recent recall of 340k ford explorers).

The problem is that, unfortunately, many of these failures are either due to (1) modded engines, which don't count as a safety failure and BMW doesn't have to report to NHTSA, and (2) many of the supposed stock failures could be fake/lies online for whatever reason, which exacerbates the issue. Number 2 specifically is a huge problem for all OEMs. The amount of fake stories/failures on forums is much much larger than you think (at least it was for me). For example, two of my colleagues used to work for OEMs on the legal compliance side, one for JLR the other for BMWNA. Both have flat out told me that more than ~70-80% of cases opened for investigations from issues raised on various forums of stock cars tend to be fake/made up/actually modded cars. I was shocked at this. It just seems ridiculous to me that the number was that high, but they are credible sources (to me at least and to their current company which deals with a lot of the NHTSA hurdles in their AV use case).

I mentioned this crank hub problem to them and showed them some of the threads/polls, and their thoughts were simple - either the vast majority of the "stock" failures are lies/actually modded cars or BMW is risking what could be one of the largest fines/adverse actions in NHTSA history, and the former BMW counsel seemed pretty confident it would be the former given BMW's internal risk compliance thresholds.

At the end of the day, none of us know for certain what is happening on BMW's end, but that gave me the confidence to know that these failures must be really small, because I cannot see BMW just forgetting that the Ford Pinto happened or that NHTSA exists.

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by KevinM

I actually think the S55 has a very good reliability record for a performance engine. It's been in production since 2014, and sure there are people with with the spun crank hub, etc., but this appears to be quite rare given the production numbers. Forums tend to attract those with problems (as well as enthusiasts, of course ) and there is relatively little traffic about reliability compared to, for example, rod bearing failure in the S85 engine.

I tend to agree with you but would love to know the numbers.

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

The problem is that, unfortunately, many of these failures are either due to (1) modded engines, which don't count as a safety failure and BMW doesn't have to report to NHTSA, and (2) many of the supposed stock failures could be fake/lies online for whatever reason, which exacerbates the issue. Number 2 specifically is a huge problem for all OEMs. The amount of fake stories/failures on forums is much much larger than you think (at least it was for me). For example, two of my colleagues used to work for OEMs on the legal compliance side, one for JLR the other for BMWNA. Both have flat out told me that more than ~70-80% of cases opened for investigations from issues raised on various forums of stock cars tend to be fake/made up/actually modded cars. I was shocked at this. It just seems ridiculous to me that the number was that high, but they are credible sources (to me at least and to their current company which deals with a lot of the NHTSA hurdles in their AV use case).

Interesting.

Still, I'd love for someone to get to the bottom of those stock failures that are real. If it's a manufacturing issue why is it still continuing?

[TemjinX2]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Really? I've taken my wife's out repeatedly for extensive "spirited" drives and never felt power quickly disappear...

i took my n55 m2 into the canyons 85 degrees 11,000 ft elev...the butt dyno didn't feel any lost in power. engine indicator was in the middle whole time. but i'm also stock.

[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Interesting.

Still, I'd love for someone to get to the bottom of those stock failures that are real. If it's a manufacturing issue why is it still continuing?

Well, there definite ARE stock failures. My dealer encountered one (S55) on a (MT) downshift over-rev, according to the logs. At least one other stock.
It’s obvious a weak link on an otherwise bulletproof engine that should’ve been addressed long ago. It’s unfortunate because it can, and is affecting purchase decisions.
We’re not talking $3K of damage on a Subaru here.
I bought my N54 ‘10 135i knowing I might have fuel pump issues (never did) but that even modded, I wouldn’t get any grief because mods didn’t affect the already well-known and documented fuel pump problems. I bought with confidence and modded with confidence.
The spun crank hub problem is a totally different situation that is partially deterring me from a purchase. I know I want a tune and mods.
It’s a bummer. At least if there was a documented TSB out there or something on it, that would help. Obviously there won’t be a recall at this point.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Agreed. Not to mention BMWNA opens cases for every single one of these reports posted on the forum (know this for a fact but cannot say how) and then works to investigate them and work with the dealers who are reporting them. They do this because if there is an issue that impacts safety (engine failure being one), they have strict reporting obligations to NHTSA and if they fail to report, could lead to enormous fines.

If this was an actual large problem, BMW would have had to do a recall by now (or some other remedy) or risk the huge potential impact of a NHTSA violation. NHTSA has made it nearly impossible for manufacturers to get away with large scale safety failures like this unscathed (see recent recall of 340k ford explorers).

The problem is that, unfortunately, many of these failures are either due to (1) modded engines, which don't count as a safety failure and BMW doesn't have to report to NHTSA, and (2) many of the supposed stock failures could be fake/lies online for whatever reason, which exacerbates the issue. Number 2 specifically is a huge problem for all OEMs. The amount of fake stories/failures on forums is much much larger than you think (at least it was for me). For example, two of my colleagues used to work for OEMs on the legal compliance side, one for JLR the other for BMWNA. Both have flat out told me that more than ~70-80% of cases opened for investigations from issues raised on various forums of stock cars tend to be fake/made up/actually modded cars. I was shocked at this. It just seems ridiculous to me that the number was that high, but they are credible sources (to me at least and to their current company which deals with a lot of the NHTSA hurdles in their AV use case).

I mentioned this crank hub problem to them and showed them some of the threads/polls, and their thoughts were simple - either the vast majority of the "stock" failures are lies/actually modded cars or BMW is risking what could be one of the largest fines/adverse actions in NHTSA history, and the former BMW counsel seemed pretty confident it would be the former given BMW's internal risk compliance thresholds.

At the end of the day, none of us know for certain what is happening on BMW's end, but that gave me the confidence to know that these failures must be really small, because I cannot see BMW just forgetting that the Ford Pinto happened or that NHTSA exists.

They don’t give a damn about NHTSA regarding engine failures unless it causes an accident. How do I know? Their past behavior. See S62, N63, S54 post recall, S65, and S85. All these engines are time bombs. S65 and S85 have a really high failure rate and they swept it under the rug. I know one owner who had theirs blow up out of warranty and they did a goodwill replacement and just asked for silence. It’s still cost / benefit and it’s dictated by Munich. I know of 2 S65 engine owners that have filled out the NHTSA incident forms and not a thing happened.

If you think this agency has teeth, think again. It takes dead bodies to get in real trouble. Look into the Porsche V8 camshaft controller recall. Engines in the Cayenne and Panamera were failing all the time. They kept it quiet for years. Finally they did a recall in the US after China forced their hand. Lots of blown engines, didn’t recall it in the US for 6 years.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by chris719

They don't give a damn about NHTSA regarding engine failures unless it causes an accident..

I agree; the vehicle or part failure has to be correlated to someone sort of safety risk to the public for an it to be considered a hazard and investigate by the NHTSA, usually in the form of an official recall. A blown or weak engine sounds like more a Consumer Affairs issue, enforceable on a specific state level of where the item was originally purchased and registered.

An engine failure might be an inconvenience and unfair but it poses no potential safety risk to a consumer or the general public.

Just like the OEM plastic charge pipe in the N55 that's know to blow at high boost levels, sort of like a fuse to high output, the crank hub is just weakest link in the chain of the S55 and when one decide to push the motor to the max, can show its inherent weaknesses.


.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by chris719

They don’t give a damn about NHTSA regarding engine failures unless it causes an accident. How do I know? Their past behavior. See S62, N63, S54 post recall, S65, and S85. All these engines are time bombs. S65 and S85 have a really high failure rate and they swept it under the rug. I know one owner who had theirs blow up out of warranty and they did a goodwill replacement and just asked for silence. It’s still cost / benefit and it’s dictated by Munich. I know of 2 S65 engine owners that have filled out the NHTSA incident forms and not a thing happened.

If you think this agency has teeth, think again. It takes dead bodies to get in real trouble. Look into the Porsche V8 camshaft controller recall. Engines in the Cayenne and Panamera were failing all the time. They kept it quiet for years. Finally they did a recall in the US after China forced their hand. Lots of blown engines, didn’t recall it in the US for 6 years.

Okay, sure. Don't really care if you don't believe me. But NHTSA does have teeth, I know this for a fact. But sure man, you do you.

[wknddrivr]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Okay, sure. Don't really care if you don't believe me. But NHTSA does have teeth, I know this for a fact. But sure man, you do you.

To think that any government agency is competent or has teeth is naive

[Proctor750]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

The problem is that, unfortunately, many of these failures are either due to (1) modded engines, which don't count as a safety failure and BMW doesn't have to report to NHTSA, and (2) many of the supposed stock failures could be fake/lies online for whatever reason, which exacerbates the issue.

Weird, I thought it was having a crank hub held together by friction

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Proctor750

Weird, I thought it was having a crank hub held together by friction

That's not what I meant. I meant failures that result in an investigation being opened by the OEM that could lead to a NHTSA violation. I was trying to address the problem of why this hasn't become something bigger/acknowledged by BMW. But you knew that.

All I was trying to do was provide a bit of context/perspective on what the issue could be given the credible sources (to me) I spoke with and my knowledge working with this highly regulated industry on the legal side.

It helped me feel less anxious about the possibility of my S55 having a failure due to an "epidemic" problem. If it doesn't for you, that's cool. No harm no foul.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by ssquared

To think that any government agency is competent or has teeth is naive

Lol. Love forum jokes to start my day. I'm assuming you don't work in a highly regulated industry?

It's cool man, we are all internet heroes and credibility online is hard to establish if you want to maintain anonymity. We disagree based on our own experiences, no harm no foul.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Lol. Love forum jokes to start my day. I'm assuming you don't work in a highly regulated industry?

It's cool man, we are all internet heroes and credibility online is hard to establish if you want to maintain anonymity. We disagree based on our own experiences, no harm no foul.

Way more S54, S65, and S85 engines have failed than S55 and there has never been even a hint of regulatory involvement. Believing that it will happen on the relatively rare crank hub failure is ignoring reality. Look at Subaru's piston ring-land issues with the old WRX and STI engines... they do not consider these things safety issues.

I do work in a regulated industry, more heavily regulated than automotive, in fact. The funding is far greater than NHTSA receives and they are still overburdened, swamped, and work too closely with industry.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by chris719

Way more S54, S65, and S85 engines have failed than S55 and there has never been even a hint of regulatory involvement. Believing that it will happen on the relatively rare crank hub failure is ignoring reality. Look at Subaru's piston ring-land issues with the old WRX and STI engines... they do not consider these things safety issues.

I do work in a regulated industry, more heavily regulated than automotive, in fact. The funding is far greater than NHTSA receives and they are still overburdened, swamped, and work too closely with industry.

Those non-S55 failures you mention, did all or a substantial portion of them occur during the warranty period? Because if not, then we are talking about two different things here. I don't recall those failures happening until 60k+ miles. An OEM doesn't have to do anything safety/recall related if the failure is an engine failure that occurs outside the warranty period or as a result of modifications (barring some very specific exceptions which is too nuanced to explain right now). And to put a finer point on it, if it is not a fault that leads to immediate catastrophic engine failure (like a spun hub can), but instead can be driven safely for a bit before failure (e.g., to a dealer, although this is a generalization of the requirement which is also nuanced) it's not the type that would require a massive recall because of a NHTSA violation (see Subaru example). We are getting a bit into the weeds here, but it's more nuanced than it appears.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Those non-S55 failures you mention, did all or a substantial portion of them occur during the warranty period? Because if not, then we are talking about two different things here. I don't recall those failures happening until 60k+ miles. An OEM doesn't have to do anything safety/recall related if the failure is an engine failure that occurs outside the warranty period or as a result of modifications (barring some very specific exceptions which is too nuanced to explain right now). And to put a finer point on it, if it is not a fault that leads to immediate catastrophic engine failure (like a spun hub can), but instead can be driven safely for a bit before failure (e.g., to a dealer, although this is a generalization of the requirement which is also nuanced) it's not the type that would require a massive recall because of a NHTSA violation (see Subaru example). We are getting a bit into the weeds here, but it's more nuanced than it appears.

Look into the S85 and S65 failures. They can go at any mileage stock, although more common at higher mileage. It's typically far more catastrophic than a spun crank hub because it ends up with the engine throwing a rod through the block.

There is even one that comes up right away in a Youtube search:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=M2vM_KGaEN0

The guy is being an idiot, but check the parts left on the ground.

Check this list out, it is huge compared to the few stock spun crank hubs:

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Chopper731

Performance. Reliability. Affordability.

Pick two.

Generally true, but this stuff like the crank hub really shouldn't happen with the kinds of tools the engineers have at their disposal today.

How much would it really cost per unit to have keyed the crank? Probably not much, but they were able to recycle the design and so they did. Is it cost cutting or over-reliance on the simulation results without enough safety margin built in? Only the engineers that worked on it know for sure.

Given the history of the BMW S engines, it's pretty clear they don't have the same reliability standards as Toyota or Honda. Whether that is corporate culture or dictated by cost, it's hard to know.

In general, more complexity decreases reliability. It seems that the BMW S engines might do a little worse than their counterparts from other manufacturers, though.

[Chopper731]

Originally Posted by chris719

Generally true, but this stuff like the crank hub really shouldn't happen with the kinds of tools the engineers have at their disposal today.

How much would it really cost per unit to have keyed the crank? Probably not much, but they were able to recycle the design and so they did. Is it cost cutting or over-reliance on the simulation results without enough safety margin built in? Only the engineers that worked on it know for sure.

Given the history of the BMW S engines, it's pretty clear they don't have the same reliability standards as Toyota or Honda. Whether that is corporate culture or dictated by cost, it's hard to know.

In general, more complexity decreases reliability. It seems that the BMW S engines might do a little worse than their counterparts from other manufacturers, though.

I absolutely love my bimmers but cars out of Germany are not as reliable as cars out of Japan. Never have been, never will be.

[1mm2]

Took a 2020 M2C out for a good test drive yesterday and was impressed overall but the sound difference was stark to say the least. Drove home in the LCI and realized how much better it sounded. Hmmm...

[FreeDarko]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Took a 2020 M2C out for a good test drive yesterday and was impressed overall but the sound difference was stark to say the least. Drove home in the LCI and realized how much better it sounded. Hmmm...

Could you feel the power difference? Or did you not push it?

[aerokubectl]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Agreed. Not to mention BMWNA opens cases for every single one of these reports posted on the forum (know this for a fact but cannot say how) and then works to investigate them and work with the dealers who are reporting them. They do this because if there is an issue that impacts safety (engine failure being one), they have strict reporting obligations to NHTSA and if they fail to report, could lead to enormous fines.

If this was an actual large problem, BMW would have had to do a recall by now (or some other remedy) or risk the huge potential impact of a NHTSA violation. NHTSA has made it nearly impossible for manufacturers to get away with large scale safety failures like this unscathed (see recent recall of 340k ford explorers).

The problem is that, unfortunately, many of these failures are either due to (1) modded engines, which don't count as a safety failure and BMW doesn't have to report to NHTSA, and (2) many of the supposed stock failures could be fake/lies online for whatever reason, which exacerbates the issue. Number 2 specifically is a huge problem for all OEMs. The amount of fake stories/failures on forums is much much larger than you think (at least it was for me). For example, two of my colleagues used to work for OEMs on the legal compliance side, one for JLR the other for BMWNA. Both have flat out told me that more than ~70-80% of cases opened for investigations from issues raised on various forums of stock cars tend to be fake/made up/actually modded cars. I was shocked at this. It just seems ridiculous to me that the number was that high, but they are credible sources (to me at least and to their current company which deals with a lot of the NHTSA hurdles in their AV use case).

I mentioned this crank hub problem to them and showed them some of the threads/polls, and their thoughts were simple - either the vast majority of the "stock" failures are lies/actually modded cars or BMW is risking what could be one of the largest fines/adverse actions in NHTSA history, and the former BMW counsel seemed pretty confident it would be the former given BMW's internal risk compliance thresholds.

At the end of the day, none of us know for certain what is happening on BMW's end, but that gave me the confidence to know that these failures must be really small, because I cannot see BMW just forgetting that the Ford Pinto happened or that NHTSA exists.

Can confirm this is truth, worked with numerous
OEMs and we talked about this all the time.