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BMW M2 Forum > M2 vs... > Wait, whaaat!? A Civic Type-R is faster than a BMW M2 around the Nürburgring?!?

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      04-19-2018, 01:11 PM   #67
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going down the slippery slope just add Helga somewhere in there
Helga und ze sausages of different lengths?
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      04-22-2018, 06:43 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by afwares View Post
I don't care if it goes around the ring so fast that it causes the earth to reverse rotation and spin backwards on its axis...what an aesthetic mess. The Civic R is to the M2 as Kathy Griffin is to Gal Gadot. And maybe Honda should have thought twice before allowing the guy who went to Comic Con dressed as Dead Pool to design the interior. I'm surprised the pedals aren't red. Pass.
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      03-03-2019, 03:03 PM   #69
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Okay first off, there’s nothing “boring” about a Civic Type R. Whether you think it’s FUGLY or simply extroverted, it’s going to steal the attention from your car if you are parked next to it. BMWs are sporty suits with tight creases. Honda CTR is like an acrobatic court jester. You can laugh at him all you want till he slits your throat from behind cause you didn’t take him seriously.

Speaking of being acrobatic, those Nurburing times, they are official are they not? Anybody here doubt the car inspection and the professionals at Nurburing? Careful now. Scrutiny begets more scrutiny. Tires are important, but an engine still has to turn them.

Last but not least, manual vs dual clutch. It’s not a fair fight. With that said, there's really no need to dog each other out. Comparing cars is like comparing penis size, this comparison is really close. Give credit to the Honda for going Manual, as we all know, it requires “Driving Skills”.
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      03-03-2019, 04:22 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinRush View Post
Okay first off, there's nothing "boring" about a Civic Type R. Whether you think it's FUGLY or simply extroverted, it's going to steal the attention from your car if you are parked next to it. BMWs are sporty suits with tight creases. Honda CTR is like an acrobatic court jester. You can laugh at him all you want till he slits your throat from behind cause you didn't take him seriously.

Speaking of being acrobatic, those Nurburing times, they are official are they not? Anybody here doubt the car inspection and the professionals at Nurburing? Careful now. Scrutiny begets more scrutiny. Tires are important, but an engine still has to turn them.

Last but not least, manual vs dual clutch. It's not a fair fight. With that said, there's really no need to dog each other out. Comparing cars is like comparing penis size, this comparison is really close. Give credit to the Honda for going Manual, as we all know, it requires "Driving Skills".
Uhm. You do realize that "official" ring times are self reported by the manufacturers. Right? There's no officiating body that does pre/post track inspections.

And as far as I'm aware, they never reported what tires they used, which is typical for official time submissions in productions cars. The fact they left it out likely means they were indeed running non-oem tires, which can skew results significantly.
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      03-03-2019, 04:47 PM   #71
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That car wasn't a stock type R. It was a pre-production car with stripped interior, different tires (Pilot Sport Cup 2), and who knows what other changes they haven't disclosed. A stock Type R will not get close to that time. This FWD record Honda owns is meaningless on a non-stock car. Still I think the Type R is amazing for a FWD car and I just wish Honda wasn't so misleading with this time.
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      03-04-2019, 06:52 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinRush View Post
O

Speaking of being acrobatic, those Nurburing times, they are official are they not?
No they are not. Sorry.

The 'official carjourno' CTR Sport Auto time is not 8:05 edit it's 8:01 see below.

Cheers
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Last edited by Robin_NL; 03-05-2019 at 12:46 AM..
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      03-04-2019, 09:35 PM   #73
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Excuse me, gentlemen. I beg to differ. Your conclusions are self-serving. Here is the video and the car is clearly “stock”. I will be the first to admit it’s painful to have spent so much money on a BMW M series car to see it passed by a Honda on the road. It is fact! Not fiction!
The only thing that has been “stripped” is the navigation unit and that is perfectly normal. The CTR is faster than many other “stock” BMWs and M-series cars. It’s not a major loss for you. It’s just a loss. Now excuse me, I think it’s time for a warm cup of Sake. ( Rice Wine ).
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      03-05-2019, 12:45 AM   #74
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A non prepped Civic Type R did 8:01 in the hands of pro driver Christian Gebhardt.



So I stand corrected, it wasn't 8:05 it was 8:01 for a Civic Type R you can buy at your dealership, out of the box.

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      03-05-2019, 01:10 AM   #75
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Interesting view of an '18 Type R owner who owns a '16 Porsche GT4 as well:

Quote:
Oops, I did remember the 8:06 RS time, thanks for the correction. The FK8 did do a 8:01 with sport auto while they posted 7:40-7:50 times for a lot of the cars you list (making those cars 11-20 seconds faster than a CTR). Likely the 8:01 CTR time was in Christian's hands, but I'm not sure.

"The CTR is in damn good company" is a false, or at best misleading, statement if you are talking about 7:40-7:50 cars. The CTR is not in the company of the 7:40-7:50 cars. To say that it would have to be driven under the same conditions as the other 7:40-7:50 cars and post a sub 7:50 time.

Sport auto tests the GT4 as 19 seconds faster than the CTR under similar conditions (7:42 vs. 8:01). Every other test that has included both the GT4 and a CTR has shown the former car to be significantly faster. Motor Trend (Randy Pobst) did a 1:37 at Laguna Seca in a GT4 and a 1:44 in a CTR. Car and Driver did a 2:54 in a GT4 at Virginia International Raceway and a 3:03.9 in the CTR. Every track day I've gone to has the GT4 4 or 5 seconds faster around a 2 minute track than the CTR (which would translate to about 20 seconds faster at the 'ring, a roughly 8 minute track). Are you suggesting that the CTR can post similar times to a GT4 and for every example I have given that they just weren't driving the CTR well enough?

I don't care that much, but I kind of care about the scientific literacy of the general populace Each of these tests is an experiment to measure an unknown quantity. There are parameters that effect the outcome, like weather and driver. Some of these parameters might be considered cheating, like turning up the turbo boost, changing the suspension from stock, or modifying the tires some way for a hero lap (special heating or shaving). I don't want to say the Honda factory CTR time is BS or cheating, but however they got their lap time so low doesn't translate to any magazine test or lap time achieved by actual owners. It's basic scientific/engineering procedure to throw out an outlying data point. Every other test has the GT4 at least 4 seconds per two minutes of track time faster than the CTR except for the Honda factory CTR time, therefore, that factory time is the one to throw out for any reasonable comparison.

It doesn't mean we can't enjoy watching Honda's 7:43.8 and wonder what witchcraft they performed to get it, but it's meaningless for comparison with other cars. 8:01 is a time comparable with other cars and it's damn impressive! (EDIT: from tire differences described in the next two posts, a good comparable ring time for the CTR is likely around 7:53 if it was on Michelin Cup 2 tires, which many of the 7:40-7:50 cars use, so the factory CTR time of 7:43.8 is still an outlier, but by about 10 seconds, not 18 seconds)
https://www.civicx.com/threads/evo-m...the-win.29193/

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Robin
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      03-05-2019, 02:13 AM   #76
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Numbers aside, the Type R is a phenomenal car and one that I would have loved to have owned at 16, 21 or he'll even in to my mid to late twenties. But for someone like myself in their mid-thirties, it just isn't a car that I want to be seen in at this juncture.

I do wish that they would create a toned down / sleeper version for people like me, but that will never happen.
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      03-05-2019, 06:28 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinRush View Post
Excuse me, gentlemen. I beg to differ. Your conclusions are self-serving. Here is the video and the car is clearly "stock". I will be the first to admit it's painful to have spent so much money on a BMW M series car to see it passed by a Honda on the road. It is fact! Not fiction!
The only thing that has been "stripped" is the navigation unit and that is perfectly normal. The CTR is faster than many other "stock" BMWs and M-series cars. It's not a major loss for you. It's just a loss. Now excuse me, I think it's time for a warm cup of Sake. ( Rice Wine ).
Not sure what you're going on about, the car clearly has a roll cage and it's already been confirmed they removed the back seats. It also does not show what tires its using, or if anything was done under the hood.

The video literally proves nothing.

Call me skeptical until I see some repeated performances by non-bias drivers.
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      03-05-2019, 08:07 AM   #78
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And let's not forget who's behind the wheel of that specially prepared CTR: The one and only Stig!

If he'd driven an stock M235iA at that exact same day overthere he would have done a 7:38.66. Not kidding!

Cheers
Robin
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      03-05-2019, 10:13 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinRush View Post
Excuse me, gentlemen. I beg to differ. Your conclusions are self-serving. Here is the video and the car is clearly “stock”.
You need to do better research before posting false narratives;

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...-record-video/

Quote:
This Type R was a preproduction development vehicle that Honda claims was “technically representative of production specification.” It wore Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires at the Nürburgring, Honda said, although the production model will get Continental ContiSportContact 6 performance tires as standard (Honda won’t yet say whether the Michelins will be a factory option in the U.S.). For safety purposes, a full floating roll cage was added to the Type R, but it supposedly did not add any extra rigidity to the vehicle. The added weight of the cage was offset by the removal of the display audio system and rear seats. Sticklers might take issue with that type of asterisk; we saw with the Lamborghini Huracán Performante just how skeptical people are of claims surrounding these records.
Yeah it's clearly stock. Exactly the same as one sitting in your local dealer. Exactly. There's a reason nobody else has come close to this time with stock versions. Consider yourself excused.
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      03-06-2019, 02:04 AM   #80
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Read it and weep! I hate to be the bearer of bad news.....I’m lying. I’m absolutely thrilled to share this with you.
https://www.motor1.com/features/1434...e-r-lap-times/

And I quote:
7:58 – BMW M2
Our favorite new BMW M car in years is still a joy, but it’s not quick enough to keep up the Civic Type R. That said, the M2 is in good company, and we’re never going to give up a chance to get behind the wheel just because it’s a few seconds slower than a Honda.

( REWIND / SLO-MO ) “Aaaaaaa feeeewww seecccondds sloooooweeer thaaan a Hooonnnnda!”

You see? You still get points for 2nd place. I’ll be fair. After reading your post, I concur there was a rollcage in the car and they were using Michelins. However, this does not mean that another BMW was going around the track without a rollcage and / or on different tires. Michelins are the best there is out there as of date.

I agree STIG probably pushed that car to it’s limits. Then again, I’m sure he would that to any car in a time attack around the “Ring”.

I guess the only way you are going to accept the truth is if you race one those Type R’s that is closer to it’s pre-production state. All automakers do tests with pre-production vehicles then tone them down. But if you know anything about those Honda boys, you know, deep deep down in your heart when you pull up to a red light alongside one of those FK8s, he modded it. Good luck beating him. I’ll put my money on “hideous”.
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      03-06-2019, 03:00 AM   #81
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Wow.So they were using Michelins? And a steeringwheel and suspension and a chassis. And a rollcage. As an option. It's in the brochure.

You're right, I have to admit: the 7:52 M2C and 8:01 OG M2 time (by carmag Sportauto/Christian Gebhardt) were done with some rollcage and tyres.

But the 8:01 CTR time(also by Gebhardt/Sportauto) was done with just tyres and no rollcage.

Can you believe this?

Me neither...

Cheers
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      03-06-2019, 06:58 AM   #82
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I'm so confused... Can anyone else make sense of this guy?

EDIT: ahh, it all makes sense now.. He's a CTR owner trying to troll these forums in an effort to validate his purchase.

https://www.civicx.com/threads/what-...-6#post-555600

The CTR is a great car for a certain demographic, but sorry, it's not faster than an M2.
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      03-06-2019, 04:52 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
A non prepped Civic Type R did 8:01 in the hands of pro driver Christian Gebhardt.



So I stand corrected, it wasn't 8:05 it was 8:01 for a Civic Type R you can buy at your dealership, out of the box.

Cheers
Robin
How much did the m2 OG do comparably?
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      03-06-2019, 07:25 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
How much did the m2 OG do comparably?
Exact same time as the Type R as shown on the list.
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      03-06-2019, 07:54 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
I'm so confused... Can anyone else make sense of this guy?

EDIT: ahh, it all makes sense now.. He's a CTR owner trying to troll these forums in an effort to validate his purchase.

https://www.civicx.com/threads/what-...-6#post-555600

The CTR is a great car for a certain demographic, but sorry, it's not faster than an M2.
Yooo, check this out! Troll the forums? That's low. If anybody disagrees with you or challenges you on something you refer to them as a troll? That's weak. Man up, for real.

Car talk is car talk.....period. The truth is we love this stuff. It's in YOUR nature and my nature. Why else would you be following this thread?

Who would win in a fight? Hulk or the Juggernaut?
Who would win in a boxing match? Holyfield or Tyson?
Who would win in a beauty contest? Scarlett Johannsen or Ema Watson?

Do you get it? Nobody is trolling you or a forum. Chill out!

This is who is fastest around the Nurburgring, a BMW M2 or the CTR?
I even agreed with you about the preproduction settings for the CTR.
Yet you fail to admit that the clock doesn't lie. ( That's ego and pride talking ).

I would LOVE to have either car, M2 or CTR FK8. Sorry, but I don't actually have the car. I wish I did. I wouldn't be here if I had a CTR. I wouldn't have time to entertain this topic. Do you have a M2?
When I have a CTR, I'll let you know.

So the final question is this. I posted the time info that I found online and you posted a link with different results. Somebody is lying! Or maybe they are not lying and the criteria is different. We'll get to the bottom of this.

Either way, I think you should consider giving Honda your nod of approval ( even if you think the car is ugly ). Honda designed and built that car with their K20C engine. They are not like other automakers who ask BMW to build their engines and chasis....cough cough..Zupra...cough.

FACT IS ( Preproduction or not ) A car, with a Honda badge, with a Honda powerplant in it, flew around the Nurburgring with a time that raised eyebrows all across the automotive industry happened.
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      03-06-2019, 08:58 PM   #86
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You pretty much confirmed my point. Thanks.

Have a good day!
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      03-08-2019, 02:11 PM   #87
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Been stalking these forums for a while now, and signed up just to say that, if ridiculous looks are preclusive, then the Subaru STI would have never become a popular car. I think what Honda is offering for just $35k is pretty amazing considering you typically have to pay alot more for new and fun.

That is all. Carry on.
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      03-08-2019, 02:13 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkme323 View Post
Numbers aside, the Type R is a phenomenal car and one that I would have loved to have owned at 16, 21 or he'll even in to my mid to late twenties. But for someone like myself in their mid-thirties, it just isn't a car that I want to be seen in at this juncture.

I do wish that they would create a toned down / sleeper version for people like me, but that will never happen.
But you do realize that most people see beamers as "look at me" cars, right?

I guess my attitude is a little different. I'm in my early 30's and couldn't care less if my car looks like a bat mobile of sorts. But I work in tech and not sales. I know that for some people the car they drive sort of bleeds into their work since their outward appearance matters more.
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