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      08-04-2017, 08:02 PM   #67
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I would say if your objective is to find lag in the M2 you will find it. If you are concerned about it you have to drive one.
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      08-29-2017, 04:29 AM   #68
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There is a slight turbo lag if you're in very low rpm say 1000 but keep in mind you're in deep torque by 1400 so from there on, the torque flings you.
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      08-29-2017, 12:24 PM   #69
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As I still drive my 2009 135i (N54 engine) alongside my 2017 M2 (N55), I have the ability to do direct comparisons.

As it pertains to turbo lag in these cars, when I first picked up my M2, my initial perception was that it had significantly more lag than my 135i. From stomping on the throttle to full thrust, it seemed like a full second. This is irrespective of the driving mode it is in. Point blank, the 135i still feels like it is more eager to get up and go. It taps out in the high RPMs, and the M2 at full boost is a faster car, but the power responsiveness is slower.

Over the past few months something donned on me.... Maybe it's not the turbo lag that I'm feeling between the two cars as much as the raw NA power curve. My hunch is that the N54 engine, off turbo, has far more grunt than the N55 does. The extra grunt of the 135i "covers up" the turbo lag to full boost, providing for a very responsive driving experience, especially around town. Likewise, the M2 and its N55 engine really requires its turbo to make it a formidable engine... So in that initial accelerator press, the lack of its raw NA power is very noticeable to me (comparatively speaking).

Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
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      08-29-2017, 12:25 PM   #70
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As I still drive my 2009 135i (N54 engine) alongside my 2017 M2 (N55), I have the ability to do direct comparisons.

As it pertains to turbo lag in these cars, when I first picked up my M2, my initial perception was that it had significantly more lag than my 135i. From stomping on the throttle to full thrust, it seemed like a full second. This is irrespective of the driving mode it is in. Point blank, the 135i still feels like it is more eager to get up and go. It taps out in the high RPMs, and the M2 at full boost is a faster car, but the power responsiveness is slower.

Over the past few months something donned on me.... Maybe it's not the turbo lag that I'm feeling between the two cars as much as the raw NA power curve. My hunch is that the N54 engine, off turbo, has far more grunt than the N55 does. The extra grunt of the 135i "covers up" the turbo lag to full boost, providing for a very responsive driving experience, especially around town. Likewise, the M2 and its N55 engine really requires its turbo to make it a formidable engine... So in that initial accelerator press, the lack of its raw NA power is very noticeable to me (comparatively speaking).

Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
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      08-29-2017, 01:11 PM   #71
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I bet it is some kind of software throttle / torque management rather than actual turbo lag.
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      08-29-2017, 06:37 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic837 View Post
As I still drive my 2009 135i (N54 engine) alongside my 2017 M2 (N55), I have the ability to do direct comparisons.

As it pertains to turbo lag in these cars, when I first picked up my M2, my initial perception was that it had significantly more lag than my 135i. From stomping on the throttle to full thrust, it seemed like a full second. This is irrespective of the driving mode it is in. Point blank, the 135i still feels like it is more eager to get up and go. It taps out in the high RPMs, and the M2 at full boost is a faster car, but the power responsiveness is slower.

Over the past few months something donned on me.... Maybe it's not the turbo lag that I'm feeling between the two cars as much as the raw NA power curve. My hunch is that the N54 engine, off turbo, has far more grunt than the N55 does. The extra grunt of the 135i "covers up" the turbo lag to full boost, providing for a very responsive driving experience, especially around town. Likewise, the M2 and its N55 engine really requires its turbo to make it a formidable engine... So in that initial accelerator press, the lack of its raw NA power is very noticeable to me (comparatively speaking).

Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
I drove a z4 35i and felt the same way. But it wasn't the NA part that makes the difference, but the throttle responsiveness adjustment for the primary reason and low boost efficiency of the 2 small snails that also matters a little bit.

And I don't think m2 in s+ mode has any lag in acceleration if you're a DCT.
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      08-29-2017, 06:40 PM   #73
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6MT in S+ at 3k rpms and above is virtually zero lag
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      08-29-2017, 06:51 PM   #74
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Any M2 owner who also driven the M240i that can make a comparison?
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      08-30-2017, 12:13 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic837 View Post
As I still drive my 2009 135i (N54 engine) alongside my 2017 M2 (N55), I have the ability to do direct comparisons.

As it pertains to turbo lag in these cars, when I first picked up my M2, my initial perception was that it had significantly more lag than my 135i. From stomping on the throttle to full thrust, it seemed like a full second. This is irrespective of the driving mode it is in. Point blank, the 135i still feels like it is more eager to get up and go. It taps out in the high RPMs, and the M2 at full boost is a faster car, but the power responsiveness is slower.

Over the past few months something donned on me.... Maybe it's not the turbo lag that I'm feeling between the two cars as much as the raw NA power curve. My hunch is that the N54 engine, off turbo, has far more grunt than the N55 does. The extra grunt of the 135i "covers up" the turbo lag to full boost, providing for a very responsive driving experience, especially around town. Likewise, the M2 and its N55 engine really requires its turbo to make it a formidable engine... So in that initial accelerator press, the lack of its raw NA power is very noticeable to me (comparatively speaking).

Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
My educated guess is because the 135I motor has twin turbos and the M2 has a single turbo, the twin turbo arrangement has a small turbo that spools quickly and a larger turbo for additional power. The single turbo in the M2 is larger than the smaller turbo in the 135I which takes a slightly longer time to spool up. Also, the M2 is 150 lbs. heavier.
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      08-30-2017, 01:22 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Maybe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic837 View Post
As I still drive my 2009 135i (N54 engine) alongside my 2017 M2 (N55), I have the ability to do direct comparisons.

As it pertains to turbo lag in these cars, when I first picked up my M2, my initial perception was that it had significantly more lag than my 135i. From stomping on the throttle to full thrust, it seemed like a full second. This is irrespective of the driving mode it is in. Point blank, the 135i still feels like it is more eager to get up and go. It taps out in the high RPMs, and the M2 at full boost is a faster car, but the power responsiveness is slower.

Over the past few months something donned on me.... Maybe it's not the turbo lag that I'm feeling between the two cars as much as the raw NA power curve. My hunch is that the N54 engine, off turbo, has far more grunt than the N55 does. The extra grunt of the 135i "covers up" the turbo lag to full boost, providing for a very responsive driving experience, especially around town. Likewise, the M2 and its N55 engine really requires its turbo to make it a formidable engine... So in that initial accelerator press, the lack of its raw NA power is very noticeable to me (comparatively speaking).

Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
My educated guess is because the 135I motor has twin turbos and the M2 has a single turbo, the twin turbo arrangement has a small turbo that spools quickly and a larger turbo for additional power. The single turbo in the M2 is larger than the smaller turbo in the 135I which takes a slightly longer time to spool up. Also, the M2 is 150 lbs. heavier.
No, twin turbo BMW and most of other manufacturers use are parallel type. Each one is driven by half of cylinders and they are of the same size.

Small turbo isn't necessarily spooling faster, with only half cylinders that support it. But they're more efficient at lower boost and thus make more power there.
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      08-30-2017, 02:32 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I bet it is some kind of software throttle / torque management rather than actual turbo lag.
Yes,I'd say the same as has that feel,turbo should be a quick spooler!
Try driving a 2.0 Evo with a Gt35 off boost,haha
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      08-30-2017, 02:45 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I bet it is some kind of software throttle / torque management rather than actual turbo lag.
I agree. Having installed a throttle response (DTE pedal box) both in my previous 335i and current M2 the "turbo lag" that most are experiencing is actual throttle response. This can easily be appreciated when switching between comfort and sport mode and augmented even more with a throttle response bypass. The so called "turbo lag" then disappears and the car becomes very responsive and even at times hyper-responsive.
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      08-30-2017, 01:24 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Maybe View Post
My educated guess is because the 135I motor has twin turbos and the M2 has a single turbo, the twin turbo arrangement has a small turbo that spools quickly and a larger turbo for additional power. The single turbo in the M2 is larger than the smaller turbo in the 135I which takes a slightly longer time to spool up. Also, the M2 is 150 lbs. heavier.
While old, and not the same hp/torque in the M2's N55, here is a comparison
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/bm...5is-dyno-test/

Ultimately they are very close - even the old ones. Your comment on weight is probably dead on therefore.
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      08-30-2017, 02:49 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic837 View Post
As I still drive my 2009 135i (N54 engine) alongside my 2017 M2 (N55), I have the ability to do direct comparisons.

As it pertains to turbo lag in these cars, when I first picked up my M2, my initial perception was that it had significantly more lag than my 135i. From stomping on the throttle to full thrust, it seemed like a full second. This is irrespective of the driving mode it is in. Point blank, the 135i still feels like it is more eager to get up and go. It taps out in the high RPMs, and the M2 at full boost is a faster car, but the power responsiveness is slower.

Over the past few months something donned on me.... Maybe it's not the turbo lag that I'm feeling between the two cars as much as the raw NA power curve. My hunch is that the N54 engine, off turbo, has far more grunt than the N55 does. The extra grunt of the 135i "covers up" the turbo lag to full boost, providing for a very responsive driving experience, especially around town. Likewise, the M2 and its N55 engine really requires its turbo to make it a formidable engine... So in that initial accelerator press, the lack of its raw NA power is very noticeable to me (comparatively speaking).

Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
I drove my 2008 135i right up to the arrival of my M2. I am not sure I agree with the assessment that the turbo lag is larger. But part of that would be how you drive, and what RPM you start from when you want to giddy up. My impression was that the N54 had more of a kick in the pants boost typical of a twin turbo, while the N55 was smoother (from the twin-scroll single turbo design) - so you might feel that as lag if you were looking at the rate of power feed at similar rpm. Not sure what the dyno charts look like side by side, but it feels that way to me. I tend to stay above 2000 rpm at cruising speed and above 3K if I am trying to be sporty (and above 4K if... never mind)... so what happens at low rpms does not bother me.

When I want it to giddy up and I am at a decent RPM, it goes... not enough lag to complain about IMHO. It is a turbo though, so it will be laggy if you are slumming in the 1-2K range.

As others have said, drive it like an M car and you will be fine!
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      08-30-2017, 03:54 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Maybe View Post
My educated guess is because the 135I motor has twin turbos and the M2 has a single turbo, the twin turbo arrangement has a small turbo that spools quickly and a larger turbo for additional power. The single turbo in the M2 is larger than the smaller turbo in the 135I which takes a slightly longer time to spool up. Also, the M2 is 150 lbs. heavier.
While old, and not the same hp/torque in the M2's N55, here is a comparison
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/bm...5is-dyno-test/

Ultimately they are very close - even the old ones. Your comment on weight is probably dead on therefore.
This is true, but focus of the issue isn't the power curves the two engines produce, but the behavior (response) associated with that full power actually responding. I don't deny that the M2 is a more powerful car, but the lag from pedal input (even at WOT) appears to be more noticeable.

I wouldn't expect the lag to show up on a dyno, as long as the turbo was spooled up under load from the beginning of the pull. Unfortunately, turbo lag isn't something that has a widely acknowledged standard graphical measurement.


The M2's engine doesn't feel as smooth to me, as the acceleration response is muted for the first second of WOT before a sudden surge of power when the turbo kicks in.... And I agree that this is most prominent in taller gears and lower RPM. But the N54's base engine and/or turbo setup seem to be better able to cope with low RPM power response. The N54 based 135i I drive around in on a regular basis actually has a very satisfying NA feel to it with normal, around the town driving. Super crisp throttle response and solid torque, even at mid throttle.
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      08-30-2017, 04:02 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motivate View Post
Calling actual M2 owners, preferably manual.

How much turbo lag do you feel on the M2 in an everyday driving situation with the occasional necessity to make a quick acceleration? What about track use?

I've read and watched many reviews where I found a mixed bag of answers. Some have said that it's a full on punch from 1500 RPM all the way to redline while others have said it takes getting to 4500 RPM to get the full punch.

So what is the verdict from real M2 owners who have driven the car for a while?
For daily driving, I did not really notice much turbo lag, but on the track I noticed the lag a lot. I installed a throttle controller which helps the throttle response a lot. Let me know if you have more questions about the throttle response, I can forward you the pdf by email with all the details.
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      08-30-2017, 04:04 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic837 View Post
As I still drive my 2009 135i (N54 engine) alongside my 2017 M2 (N55), I have the ability to do direct comparisons.

As it pertains to turbo lag in these cars, when I first picked up my M2, my initial perception was that it had significantly more lag than my 135i. From stomping on the throttle to full thrust, it seemed like a full second. This is irrespective of the driving mode it is in. Point blank, the 135i still feels like it is more eager to get up and go. It taps out in the high RPMs, and the M2 at full boost is a faster car, but the power responsiveness is slower.

Over the past few months something donned on me.... Maybe it's not the turbo lag that I'm feeling between the two cars as much as the raw NA power curve. My hunch is that the N54 engine, off turbo, has far more grunt than the N55 does. The extra grunt of the 135i "covers up" the turbo lag to full boost, providing for a very responsive driving experience, especially around town. Likewise, the M2 and its N55 engine really requires its turbo to make it a formidable engine... So in that initial accelerator press, the lack of its raw NA power is very noticeable to me (comparatively speaking).

Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
I drove my 2008 135i right up to the arrival of my M2. I am not sure I agree with the assessment that the turbo lag is larger. But part of that would be how you drive, and what RPM you start from when you want to giddy up. My impression was that the N54 had more of a kick in the pants boost typical of a twin turbo, while the N55 was smoother (from the twin-scroll single turbo design) - so you might feel that as lag if you were looking at the rate of power feed at similar rpm. Not sure what the dyno charts look like side by side, but it feels that way to me. I tend to stay above 2000 rpm at cruising speed and above 3K if I am trying to be sporty (and above 4K if... never mind)... so what happens at low rpms does not bother me.

When I want it to giddy up and I am at a decent RPM, it goes... not enough lag to complain about IMHO. It is a turbo though, so it will be laggy if you are slumming in the 1-2K range.

As others have said, drive it like an M car and you will be fine!
Perhaps these cars have varying personalities from the factory :-)

I truly feel the opposite. The M2 has a surge of power after one second of throttle input (WOT)... the 135i has a surge of power a fraction of a second after pedal input, with a smooth building of power following that.

I can appreciate both behaviors in their own way. The 135i feels strong and consistent, whereas the M2 feels like a beast on a leash.... Once you get it going, it takes off like a rocket.

It's perhaps only noticeable to me because I drive both cars on an alternating basis.
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      08-30-2017, 07:31 PM   #84
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The N54 uses two small single scroll turbos. The N55 uses a much larger twin scroll turbo. It should not be surprising that the N55 will have a bit more lag, but sustains more power in the upper rpms. There are trade-offs with both setups. The lag is not bad at all in the 6MT cars after you've learned how to deal with it. The lag is nothing compared to what my 2012 WRX had. LOL Be happy you have the N55 from a reliability standpoint.
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      08-30-2017, 10:11 PM   #85
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Atomic, it is difficult to evaluate your characterization of the M2s response because you leave out RPMs and drive mode. In comfort, as has been mentioned, there is a delay of throttle response which is distinct from turbo lag. Sport plus, as I mentioned above, has virtually zero lag (and near-immediate throttle response) when you're >3k rpm. I will reiterate that I don't know why anyone would drive the M2 in anything other than Sport plus.

Generally speaking, your claims are false.
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      08-30-2017, 10:20 PM   #86
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wow. I'm surprised people are using comfort mode to discuss turbo lag ... derp
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      08-30-2017, 10:38 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic837 View Post
Can anyone with experience in these two engines concur? Perhaps someone with both a 1M and an M2? I do recall discussion back in 2010 that the N55 was a bit lacking compared to its predecessor, favoring efficiency over power and responsiveness.

Would be interested to hear educated opinions on this.
Interesting, my M2 seems to have "less" lag. Now maybe it is the fact that I have the OEM tires on my 1M and they just spin - but I've always felt a lot more "pull" and less lag - at least in 1st gear, with the M2.
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      08-30-2017, 11:55 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBaby View Post
Atomic, it is difficult to evaluate your characterization of the M2s response because you leave out RPMs and drive mode. In comfort, as has been mentioned, there is a delay of throttle response which is distinct from turbo lag. Sport plus, as I mentioned above, has virtually zero lag (and near-immediate throttle response) when you're >3k rpm. I will reiterate that I don't know why anyone would drive the M2 in anything other than Sport plus.

Generally speaking, your claims are false.
I'm comparing my 6MT 2017 M2 in Sports+ mode to my 6MT 2009 135i.

The most noticeable example I can give is at a steady cruising speed...say the highway at 65MPH somewhere in the vicinity of 3000 RPMs in 6th gear. The initial tip in of the accelerator (i.e. to pass a vehicle) will give me a near instantaneous push back into my seat in the 135i, but will only give me a mild acceleration in my M2 until about a second later when I feel a similar push back into my seat. It's a very distinct sensation where I can clearly feel the engine "waking up" for a brief second before it hits hard at full turbo.

I'm not crazy and I'm not naive. I've been driving for 20 years and have experienced various engine designs (I owned a 2004 WRX and my brother owned a 2009 EVO X, so I know what more substantial lag feels like). I practically drive my 135i and M2 back to back on certain occasions. "My" N54 vehicle is a more responsive and eager car than "my" M2 at lower RPMs. Granted, at higher RPMs the turbo responsiveness improves a bit, and the power blows away the 135i. I'm not disputing that. But the difference is palpable.

In generalities, spec sheets, and marketing propaganda, you would think that my conclusions would have to be mistaken. However, given my daily direct comparisons, I'm confident that the reality, as it pertains to my cars at least, is that I'm not.
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