[TooFan328i]

     Featured on BIMMERPOST.com

I just read this, seems like an interesting read. I do agree with preciseness of the steering though. The steering is very precise and improved in M3. I truly hated it when my e90 would feel every lateral undulation on the road, and twist along with the road's contours.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/steer-m...steering-feel/

[fecurtis]

This thread ought to be a doozy.

[Z K]

From the article, it confirms that BMW has lost touch with what sports car drivers want. They are pursuing less feeling and more comfort.

At least at the end, they mention they will consider the feedback and see if they can bring back the steering feel.

EPS itself isn't evil, there's great steering feel in cars like the Cayman/Boxster and S2000 and NSX. BMW just went about it the wrong way.

[SDH]

I wonder why they can't or won't offer a few pre programmed tunes for the driver to select him or herself? I'm sure it could be done?

[Z K]

Originally Posted by SDH

I wonder why they can't or won't offer a few pre programmed tunes for the driver to select him or herself? I'm sure it could be done?

You can program steering effort or steering speeds but feedback and feeling is based on how much of the road you can feel through the steering wheel. Unless you have some kind of mechanical device to engage/disengage, you can't change that via programming.

For most people driving on regular roads, having that kind of feedback is not needed. But when you're hanging corners on the limit of adhesion, that feedback is crucial to knowing how much tire grip you have and how/when the tires break away when traction is lost.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by SDH

I wonder why they can't or won't offer a few pre programmed tunes for the driver to select him or herself? I'm sure it could be done?

Originally Posted by Z K

You can program steering effort or steering speeds but feedback and feeling is based on how much of the road you can feel through the steering wheel. Unless you have some kind of mechanical device to engage/disengage, you can't change that via programming.

For most people driving on regular roads, having that kind of feedback is not needed. But when you're hanging corners on the limit of adhesion, that feedback is crucial to knowing how much tire grip you have and how/when the tires break away when traction is lost.

I believe it CAN be done via software coding. At least that is what TuningWerk told me they did on their M235i with 444 Hp I drove a few years back. Even just driving the car a few meters... you could tell how much better that car's steering was over a stock car. Now granted they did have some KW custom suspension and upper strut mounts - but that car's steering was really amazing. They said most of the steering feel was all done via SW.

First Look and Taste of the Tuningwerk M235i Beast
http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=978175

Dackel

[SDH]

I'll ask the software guys at work tomorrow and see what they say. I'll get back here if there's anything worth mentioning.

[SDH]

Originally Posted by Z K

You can program steering effort or steering speeds but feedback and feeling is based on how much of the road you can feel through the steering wheel. Unless you have some kind of mechanical device to engage/disengage, you can't change that via programming.

I don't think these are steer by wire? I'm pretty sure these are belt drive eps which means there is a mechanical link between steering wheel and the wheels giving some sort of mechanical feedback even if it's masked by all the electric assist etc

[pz619]

Honestly I think it's what BMW struggles with the most. It's not like EPS can't have great feel. Take the Honda S2000 as an example.

Even the M235i which is suppose to be one of the better steering newer BMWs I feel it's not that good. Outside of the fact that there really isn't any feedback (good or bad) coming from the steering wheel I feel the diciest part is the variable steering. Variable Steering in tighter hairpins are vague at best. The fact is that I can't really predict how much turn in I'm going to get when I turn the wheel The ratio changes on numerous conditions and in the end it comes off feeling unnatural and unbalanced. Because it's not progressive I often find myself having to back the ratio off a bit because I've dialed in the wheel too much. This doesn't inspire confidence on tight mountain roads. Parking lots maybe, but that's not really why I bought the car.

[TooFan328i]

I am not sure about other BMW cars. But, regardless of feels, I still think my M3 is more accurate in steering responses than my old e90. It's very precise, I tested an M3 on the track as well, and wasn't disappointed by the steering accuracy.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by TooFan328i

I am not sure about other BMW cars. But, regardless of feels, I still think my M3 is more accurate in steering responses than my old e90. It's very precise, I tested an M3 on the track as well, and wasn't disappointed by the steering accuracy.

Accurate, yes absolutely. I think the issue is more the elusive "feel". It's hard to put down in words which I think the author in the article also struggled with. It just doesn't feel... natural?

Just my opinion of course.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by pz619

Accurate, yes absolutely. I think the issue is more the elusive "feel". It's hard to put down in words which I think the author in the article also struggled with. It just doesn't feel... natural?

Just my opinion of course.

Yes, feeling the road is important. You know if the road is rougher or smoother, the lines cut in the road that can affect traction limit, bumps, little road imperfections, gravel, if your tire sidewall is flexing and by how much etc.

As I said before, it doesn't matter for every day driving, but if you are driving at the limit, it's great feedback.

That's what I love about the E90 M3 steering, it feels alive in your hands. You can feel the engine as it revs and the road imperfections through the wheel. When the front tires give up and you start to slide, you can feel the slight vibration through the steering as the tires skip across the tarmac before you hear tire squeal.

I've driven the new M3 as well. In the F80 you can't feel the limit. The tires start squealing to let you know they've given up and you never feel the feedback prior to that point through the wheel.

[FogCityM3]

"We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs."

Pretty much sums it up: Lowest common denominator engineering

[Fundguy1]

Kisler is responsible. I say we get pitchforks and torches, form an angry mob, and storm his castle in barvaria.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

"We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs."

Pretty much sums it up: Lowest common denominator engineering

Exactly.

And who blames them.

I'd venture to guess that 99% of all BMW owners never take their car to the limit on a regular basis, if at all. And likely, for their most hardcore enthusiasts (which we'll include in this group M owners), I bet 95%+ of us hardcore enthusiasts never track our cars either, thus never really reaching the upper limits of the car on a regular basis.

So, are they going to design a steering system for the select few who will take their cars to the limit, or the masses? I think it's a no-brainer.

BMW is a company that has stakeholders, and the stakeholders tell the engineers: "Fulfill the needs of the mainstream buyer, and attract new BMW loyalists."

Limited production vehicles like the M4 GTS are built for us pure enthusiasts, and by all accounts, it acquits itself nicely.

As cars continue to progress, certain elements will get lost in translation. But you can still find early model BMWs in good condition, for those of us that feel nostalgic and want the purity of the experience (complete with excellent steering feel).

Car companies must move forward, even though to some of us, it's a small step backwards.

It took quite some time to perfect the basic steering rack, so it will take some time to perfect electric steering too. Let's hope that when they do, cars aren't simply driving themselves.

[Fundguy1]

Hardcore. Track. Road feel is necessary for at the edge yes. But it's also preferable for daily mundane driving. Making the argument it isn't necessary because most don'tdon't push their csrs is just silly. It gives you a satisfying feeling of being connected to the road and your car. Without it, it feels like a Toyota or Mercedes-Benz. I bought a bmw for a reason. Driving experience. If I wanted luxury only I would have bought a Lexus.

[lowbudgethero]

Originally Posted by Z K

As I said before, it doesn't matter for every day driving, but if you are driving at the limit, it's great feedback.

it matters quite a bit in bad weather, especially snow

[jaybird124]

Anyone have the Fall Line monoball conversion? Good and bad what real differences are noticed and how does that affect a DD?

[mvigod]

Interesting article and topic.

I do agree that BMW does not have the greatest steering feel. However, comparing each car is really all relative. I have an F10 M5 which is better than my '12 X5M or '15 X5 but not by much. Also have a '15 335 which is also not great and similar to the other BMW's.

I also have a Ferrari 458 Spider and thought the feel was pretty darn good on that relative to the BMW's. Not great but still an order of magnitude better.

Then about a month ago got a '16 911 GT3 RS. Wow! The steering feel in that car knocks the socks off the 458 and all the BMW's by a mile. That was my 1st porsche I've ever owned and the only way to describe the feedback on the 911 is that it feels like a direct manual steering setup without the extra muscle & effort required to turn the wheel. Impeccable.

So again this is all relative in terms of steering between cars. The 911 is the best feedback of any car I've driven in 30 years. Just perfection. In comparison, the 458 and BMW's all feel totally numb and devoid of any feel or feedback to me relative to the 911. The gap is that big IMHO.

So somehow Porsche figured out the magical formula on the 911 GT3 RS. If Ferrari or BMW can reverse engineer that, bottle that good stuff up, they have pure perfection.

[HighlandPete]

From my perspective steering feedback and feel is a two edged sword for designers, particularly when the marketplace dictates the demands.

Not every BMW driver wants too much feedback. As we know not all feedback is good, some is negative to easy driving, even interference and road 'noise' which adds to NVH and detracts from a predictable and fluid feel to driving.

In my experience it is not simply an EPS thing, HPAS in BMW has not necessarily been ideal for many drivers. Too heavy a steering weight, plus some negative feedback. I had an E91 for over 6-years and that was not perfect, and moving to EPS in my current car was not the step backwards some reports would have me believe. In fact I prefer the way BMW have filtered some of the negative feedback, poor road surfaces are much more driveable. Not so "in my face" as the 3-series with HPAS was. BTW, I'm not new to BMW, been driving BMW from before we even had rack and pinion HPAS in BMW models.

I found this part of the interview particularly interesting....

..... “That car is what we started with, all the feedback you can get. There’s no support [power assistance], so you have a lot of force. To remedy that, we added hydraulic assistance, and you get all the messages from the road delivered to the car. That means good information and bad information. When we moved to EPS, we learned how to divide the good and bad messages for the customer.”

Asked to cite an example of bad information, Kistler explained: “Lines in the road with an orientation parallel to the car’s path cause what we call ‘pull drift.’ The tires try to follow the lines instead of the direction selected by the driver through the steering wheel. While that’s difficult to address with hydraulic power steering, with EPS we can install what we call pull-drift compensation to help keep the car locked on a straight path instead of following longitudinal grooves....."

So EPS in never going to be giving us the same feedback as HPAS, if we start adding features which 'compensate' for some of the negative feedback.

I guess what is really missing for some drivers is the whole 'raw' feedback package, BMW are filtering it for the benefit of their biggest marketplace.

I'm old enough to remember the comments when manufacturers started adding HPAS. Many an 'enthusiast' driver lamented the loss of unassisted steering systems. The feel and feedback was reduced, even lost with assisted steering, which of course was true, the 'raw' feeling was gone.

EPS is here to stay, whether we like it or not, other systems work with EPS, like park assist. The future is using integrated systems, EPS is a core part of the future potential.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Hardcore. Track. Road feel is necessary for at the edge yes. But it's also preferable for daily mundane driving. Making the argument it isn't necessary because most don'tdon't push their csrs is just silly. It gives you a satisfying feeling of being connected to the road and your car. Without it, it feels like a Toyota or Mercedes-Benz. I bought a bmw for a reason. Driving experience. If I wanted luxury only I would have bought a Lexus.

BMW is luxury. It's a sportier version of a Lexus. But it's still a luxury-based vehicle.

So, when you that great steering feel is "preferable", it's preferable to who? Most BMW owners aren't longing for the days of excellent feedback through the steering wheel. It's a select few. Us purists, or us enthusiasts.

Do you think most BMW owners want to 'feel the road' as they're driving around town running errands? I'd venture to guess that most simply want an isolated, luxurious experience (just like a Lexus), but they bought the BMW because of prestige and aesthetics and some semblance of a more sporty driving experience when they occasionally want it.

The future is electric-assisted steering, and it's going to take a few model generations before it's perfected...hec, Porsche is still tinkering and tweaking their's too.

In the meantime, BMW is in the business of selling and/or leasing as many cars as possible. The few customers they lose because of the loss of steering feel pales in comparison to the ones they gain because of all their advanced technology giving way to a more "luxurious" experience (more luxurious than even Lexus at times).

[slavearm]

I track the car. It is appreciably faster than my E92. That being said, I have turned to non steering wheel indicators for understanding the limits of the car. The chassis is good enough to make up for quite a bit, but it definitely takes time to adjust to using your butt instead of your hands to get a feel for what the car is doing.